417 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Beaner28 wrote...

It seems the BioWare fanboys/apologists have found this thread.

*leaves*

Farewell, comrade. Come back when you have evidence to your claims.

You know, Dave, I don't want to single you out, but I see this type of argument a lot whenever someone says something negative about DA2.

How are people to actually present evidence of their concerns if there's nothing out there for them to use?

I mean, people pan the concept art, and are told it's just concept art, won't refect how the game looks, go show us proof it will.

People pan the combat, people say that's not how it'll look in the game, pove the game will be that way.

People pan the dialogue wheel, people say it will be just fine, prove it won't work right.

Where is this proof supposed to come from, since there's no access to the game itself at this point?

[ErichHartmann]

Big Blue Car wrote...


I thought large parts of the engine were being remade? The faces have a different system for one, DA:O face data can't be used for DA2. And the combat engine looks pretty darned different to me (not that that is a bad thing by any means,).

And BG2 was 2D and sprite based, without voice acting and with the same combat engine/art style as its prequel. And it still had a longer dev cycle! It's just not a useful comparison.

The Infinity Engine was upgraded for BGII.  Anyone who actually played BGII would obviously know this.  And you have no idea when development began for DAII. 

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 07 décembre 2010 - 12:53 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Big Blue Car wrote...

Beaner28 wrote...

It seems the BioWare fanboys/apologists have found this thread.

*leaves*

No no no there are 20 cheerleading threads already, honest concerns needs a thread too.

"Honest concern" threads don't consider people using phrases like "apologist" as honest concerns.

[Herr Uhl]

When I heard the release date, I was surprised and kind of concerned. We'll see.

Big Blue Car wrote...

Beaner28 wrote...

It seems the BioWare fanboys/apologists have found this thread.

*leaves*

No no no there are 20 cheerleading threads already, honest concerns needs a thread too.

I'm not sure if you're sarcastic.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Beaner28 wrote...

I don't have a problem with swallowing pride. If DA 2 is awesome and I was wrong I will come here and admit it.

But that doesn't change the fact that legions of hardcore RPGers are going to descend upon here like a plague of locusts shortly after launch to **** about the length and the fact they were forced to fork over $60 for a 20 hour experience (if we're lucky) and a game with very little replay value.

Dude, you're being reacted because you're jumping to conclusions. Worse yet, you're trying to undertake a crusade over assumptions based solely on your gut feeling and, as another crusader put it here, writing on the wall.

Having concerns is one thing. By all means, have your concerns; I have mine as well. But hate-mongering is distasteful. Irritating. Annoying. There's nothing constructive about what you're doing here. As such, it leads nothing but pointless fighting.

Or, are you here to just fight?

[Bryy_Miller]

I mean, don't get me wrong, the threads like "Thank you for _______" are dumb, as well, it's just that you can't lump ANY THREAD that says something positive/negative as constructive.

[Big Blue Car]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...


I thought large parts of the engine were being remade? The faces have a different system for one, DA:O face data can't be used for DA2. And the combat engine looks pretty darned different to me (not that that is a bad thing by any means,).

And BG2 was 2D and sprite based, without voice acting and with the same combat engine/art style as its prequel. And it still had a longer dev cycle! It's just not a useful comparison.

The Infinity Engine was upgraded for BGII.  Anyone who actually played BGII would obviously know this.  And you have no idea when development began for DAII. 

The BG trilogy was D&D 3.5 or something, adding kits doesn't make it a new engine. Maybe you're thinking of the interface and resolution changes but that isn't a new engine either. The upgrades were minor. I'm not going to be rude back to you because I'm breaking the circle of hate.

[nightcobra]

Big Blue Car wrote...

 I'm not going to be rude back to you because I'm breaking the circle of hate.

...

[Beaner28]

TJPags wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Beaner28 wrote...

It seems the BioWare fanboys/apologists have found this thread.

*leaves*

Farewell, comrade. Come back when you have evidence to your claims.

You know, Dave, I don't want to single you out, but I see this type of argument a lot whenever someone says something negative about DA2.

How are people to actually present evidence of their concerns if there's nothing out there for them to use?

I mean, people pan the concept art, and are told it's just concept art, won't refect how the game looks, go show us proof it will.

People pan the combat, people say that's not how it'll look in the game, pove the game will be that way.

People pan the dialogue wheel, people say it will be just fine, prove it won't work right.

Where is this proof supposed to come from, since there's no access to the game itself at this point?

There really isn't any proof or none that we can garner. All we have is a bunch of cliched marketing slogans like: 'when you push a button something awesome happens' as if we were born yesterday and have never played bad games before.

I guess we just have to take their word for it since gameplay videos are locked in the Disney vault?

Modifié par Beaner28, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:01 .

[upsettingshorts]

TJPags wrote...

How are people to actually present evidence of their concerns if there's nothing out there for them to use?

It's one thing to be concerned, it's another to jump to conclusions.  Do people here jump to positive conclusions too?  All the time! Just look at the Varric and un-named elf threads. 

"I don't like feature X" is a far cry from "EA is forcing Bioware to dumb down the game to appeal to a new audience."  Just to cite a common, but not universal criticism.

TJPags wrote...

People pan the combat, people say that's not how it'll look in the game, pove the game will be that way.

I think that's just a case of people seeing one thing, getting an impression, and then either taking the developers at their word or not.  Neither side has much proof, even people who have played the demo both seem to disagree over what it plays like.

TJPags wrote...

People pan the dialogue wheel, people say it will be just fine, prove it won't work right.

The discussions over the dialogue wheel, paraphrased dialogue, and voiced protagonist that actually get somewhere seem to come to the conclusion that whether or not you are for or against such a feature has more to do with the individual player's preferences and expectations rather than trying to prove that it is bjectively better or worse.

TJPags wrote...

Where is this proof supposed to come from, since there's no access to the game itself at this point?

There are quite a few things where I'd literally say we'd have to wait for the game to be released before making arguments as angry or enthusiastic as I read here every day.  My stance is optimistic, not positively assured.  There is a difference.

Big Blue Car wrote...

I'm not going to be rude back to you because I'm breaking the circle of hate.

I've responded respectfully several times in an attempt not to re-enact the "Helmets" thread - care to respond to any of my posts, or is the circle unbreakable?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:01 .

[Dave of Canada]

TJPags wrote...


You know, Dave, I don't want to single you out, but I see this type of argument a lot whenever someone says something negative about DA2.

How are people to actually present evidence of their concerns if there's nothing out there for them to use?

*snip*

Where is this proof supposed to come from, since there's no access to the game itself at this point?

His arguments are uninformed, however. He calls the game Hack & Slash and we already know it isn't, things like that. There's no evidence for these claims of Hack & Slash, we have a lot of things that say to the contrary but it's one (of the many) arguments that show up.

I have my own concerns, such as the dialogue system making characters shallow or that the game's 10-year arc will advance too fast and let us not develop any relation with the cast, but I won't yell it out like it's fact and that it's 100% true. The common arguments are labeled as facts, that's my problem with them. Sylvius explains his opinions and it's clearly opinion, I have a hell of a lot more respect for Sylvius than any other of the complainers even though I disagree with him on a lot of things because he explains his reasoning for believing this.

Saying the game is being milked, is a hack & slash and such without any explanation? Not so much, more so when you're immediately labeled a fanboy or the people in question call you a child.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:01 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Beaner28 wrote...

I guess we just have to take their word for it since gameplay videos are still locked in the Disney vault?

People are trying to be reasonable with you (at least some are). But you keep coming up with snide comments like this instead of actual backing up of your claims.

[Ensgnblack]

I am glad so many people are familiar with how games should be developed and how development cycles work, and so many other factors that go into making great games. I wish more of you with all of this information would design your own games; seems a shame to waste all that know how.

[Harid]

A lot of the bad impressions from DA2 are solely Bioware's fault.

Fight like a Spartan! Think like a general!

Press a button and something awesome happens!

They need to largely, shut the hell up, and hire whatever company came up with Kevin Butler, or the ads for Gears of War, and let the game speak for its self, because they guys they have talking now are making the game look bad. Look at the buzz for say the Witcher 2. They don't have bad talking points and show off the actual game and let that speak for itself. I regret my PC is too low end to play it when i see screens from that game.

I think people want to eat crow. Look at DA:O. The ads for that game made it look like some **** some basement dwelling, death metal listening, neckbeard having loser would play. I was happy to eat crow when that game came out. (No offense to present company.)  It's hard to give the developers passes when they are being evasive and most people's concerns are being proved right.  For example, mages on console is a terrible experiance.  They have made no effort to map more spells to the console hud, only stating spells level up.  Leveling up the spells doesn't fix the problem that PC players have something like triple the choices of console players.  The devs have said NOTHING about this, despite it being brought up several times, yet they'll post in a squee thread with some new pretty boy elf no problem.

The problem with DA:2 is the combat (shown) doesn't flow properly, of what has been largely shown to the public. You don't generally cut features out of a sequel, you add more. You can't make an action rpg with no block button (could have easily mapped a forced defensive skill to Square or whatever the Xbox equivalent is,) and Bioware could have streamlined the battle system better and then showed that final product to people, rather than the product they have shown us. They learned nothing from the mistakes they made with the DA:O ads which made the game look, well, bad. You have to learn from your mistakes. Show the public you have learned something, Bioware.

Modifié par Harid, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:06 .

[Maconbar]

We definitely need one of these:

http://farm1.static....b9de_z.jpg?zz=1

[Dave of Canada]

Harid wrote...

A lot of the bad impressions from DA2 are solely Bioware's fault.

And the catch phrases for Mass Effect, Dragon Age Origins and ME2 were better?

[RedVisionaire]

Big Blue Car wrote...



The BG trilogy was D&D 3.5 or something, adding kits doesn't make it a new engine. Maybe you're thinking of the interface and resolution changes but that isn't a new engine either. The upgrades were minor. I'm not going to be rude back to you because I'm breaking the circle of hate.

The changes from Baldur's Gate to Baldur's Gate 2 were at least as large as the changes (that we know of) between Dragon Age: Origins and Dragon Age 2. You do have a point, in that I imagine it is much easier to add and expand on a sprite based game. However, BG2 expanded dramatically on BG; DA2 is going to be shorter than DA:O.



I'm expecting DA2 to have about the same amount of bugs as any other BioWare release. I don't think it's being rushed, unless you consider intentionally making it shorter to fit into a shorter development cycle rushing it. In that case, you're probably right.

[Big Blue Car]

Ensgnblack wrote...

I am glad so many people are familiar with how games should be developed and how development cycles work, and so many other factors that go into making great games. I wish more of you with all of this information would design your own games; seems a shame to waste all that know how.

Can I agree with the first half of your post and ignore the snide second half? It is good that we are more familiar with how games are developed. Between developers being more candid on forums, experience with seeing game releases and, yes, the corporatisation of the process making moves to support profitability being more obvious I think the informed consumer probably knows more about game development than ever before, even if they lack technical knowledge. 

Again, our opinions aren't irrelevant. The knee-jerk, and most of the rude, responses are all from one side of the aisle here.

[Harid]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Harid wrote...

A lot of the bad impressions from DA2 are solely Bioware's fault.

And the catch phrases for Mass Effect, Dragon Age Origins and ME2 were better?

Do people like disagreeing yet conversely, proving people's points around here?  Is that some kinda thing?

Because this coincides with the fact that I stated, that Bioware hasn't learned anything from it's past ad campaigns.

[TJPags]

@Shorts and Dave -

You know, thanks for that.  You both answered in calm, reasoned ways - something that's often lacking in threads like this, on both sides of the table, and is why I asked what I did.

I think the problem is twofold, really:

First, people either like what they see or don't.  Either way, they don't like other people telling them they're wrong.

Second, and I think most important, we need something to judge.  And quite simply, that's some gameplay footage (I know some people have played a demo, but first, it seems to be a small group, second, they seem to disagree on some points, and third, it was a 6 month old (by now) version).

Now, as I said upthread, Mike Laidlaw has promised us some gameplay footage soon . . . until that happens, we're doing nothing more than spinning our wheels and pissing into the wind with these kinds of threads.

We should at least be discussing something concrete we've seen, and explaining why we like it, or what we don't like about it.

[Bryy_Miller]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Harid wrote...

A lot of the bad impressions from DA2 are solely Bioware's fault.

And the catch phrases for Mass Effect, Dragon Age Origins and ME2 were better?

Well, he's right. The trickling of information based on stuff that was not ready yet (plus an early demo that had placeholder art and was less defined then the later demos) ultimately hurt and will ultimately hurt DA2.

[Maria Caliban]

BG was Advanced DnD, yo. Not that 3.x crap.

[IAmTheExplorer]

What worries me is how the only way to get Signature Edition is by preordering months before the release, it feels like a way to bait users into buying a game of which we've seen nothing, in case it's slammed by the reviews.



Wait and see, I guess, but the info has been scarce and generally ill-received by DA:O players. That can't be a good omen.

[Beaner28]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Saying the game is being milked, is a hack & slash and such without any explanation?

There are a million threads where that's been discussed already.

Not so much, more so when you're immediately labeled a fanboy or the people in question call you a child.

Childish? Maybe. But it is comical to see the same people constantly come to BioWare's defense when there's nothing wrong with questioning the reasons why  we know so little about DA 2 compred to the gobs of info we knew about Origins at this point before its release. I liken you guys to right wing teabaggers that support the government no matter what and believe everything they are told because they think it is patriotic. i.e. It's BioWare, it's not going to suck. Therefore, anyone that questions BioWare is an annoying hatemonger.