417 réponses à ce sujet

[Bryy_Miller]

Harid wrote...
 Heck, whiners got the helmet toggle in this game, which works out fine because Bioware can't model a helmet to save their lives.

I'd like to see the quote where Mark Laidlaw said precisely this. I doubt "whiners got it" into the game. Whiners NEVER change a devs mind. Devs are likely to not listen to you even if you have valid complaints if you act like an immature brat.

[Harid]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Harid wrote...

I just gave you an example where complaining prior to a game release lead to a positive change for the complainers, and you just. . .went into your circular argument again.  I'm done with you.

But a reasonable one, based on evidence. If they'd starting complaining about him being changed prior to being shown any changes, they would be analogous.

I'm not even going to filter this.   What the **** are you guys talking about.

People are basing their complaints for Dragon Age 2 off of parts of the game they have seen on youtube, and things the devs have stated themselves, just like people did with Cole in Infamous 2.

Both games aren't finished products.

Both games come out next year.

You guys are moving goal posts.

Modifié par Harid, 07 décembre 2010 - 03:19 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Harid wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Harid wrote...

Look at Cole Mcgrath from Infamous 2.  They changed the character so far from what he was in the first game, fans complained, they made him look closer to the original model.   Positive change.  I'm pretty sure that is precisely what the complainers want when they make their complaints.

I wouldn't call that bashing, that seems like an entirely reasonable request. I'm sure it was put in unreasonable ways, but still.

To add: There's a difference between asking for a simple character redesign and asking for the devs to change vital features of the game (and people have been asking for that, they always do). 

Strawman arguments are awesome.  Prop some more up please.

How is this a strawman? Have you BEEN on the forums? Do you KNOW what kinds of inane things people have been saying that they want? Once again, I highly doubt they changed McGrath's appearance back because they wanted people to stop being meanies. 

You are honestly advocating being rude and unreasonable? Dear lord. 

[Ziggeh]

Harid wrote...

People are basing their complaints for Dragon Age 2 off of parts of the game they have seen on youtube, and things the devs have stated themselves, just like people did with Cole in Infamous 2.

Nope, the unreasonable bashing is based almost exclusively on assumptions, assumptions which, granted may be based upon things we've been shown and told.

[Harid]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Harid wrote...

People are basing their complaints for Dragon Age 2 off of parts of the game they have seen on youtube, and things the devs have stated themselves, just like people did with Cole in Infamous 2.

Nope, the unreasonable bashing is based almost exclusively on assumptions, assumptions which, granted may be based upon things we've been shown and told.

Based exactly, upon what?  You guys seem to paint the complainers all with the same brush which is essentially why all of these threads go to **** 3 pages or so in.

Modifié par Harid, 07 décembre 2010 - 03:25 .

[Leonia]

I feel like my post is being ignored, would like a response to this from the person advocating complaining as a good thing:

leonia42 wrote..

Now please explain to me how complaining about the possibility that DA 2 has been rushed through development will have a positive effect on the game and on the players who are making such a complaint? I can't wait to hear what you come up with.

I didn't get a response in five minutes, that speaks loudly of your opinion! /sarcasm

Modifié par leonia42, 07 décembre 2010 - 03:28 .

[Stanley Woo]

Yeah, we don't respond well to "rude and unreasonable," but we do like "well-reasoned and courteous," regardless of whether they're agreeing with us or criticizing us. That whole "treat others as you would like to be treated" thing? that "be excellent to each other" claptrap? Yup, we like that.



the problem comes when every single person wants the game to be more of what they like and how they play, forgetting that there are millions of other gamers out there who want the same thing, only they might not play the same as you or like the same things as you. If someone wants toggleable helmets and another doesn't, who do we listen to? that's right, the ones who send us the most pie!



Seriously, though, the final say in what goes into the game and what gets left out is ours and ours alone. the risk is ours, the work is ours, and so the decision must ultimately be ours as well. Occasionally, we'll make decisions as a result of some of the feedback we've gotten. That doesn't mean we're not listening to those who liked the game the way it was, however, and in no way are our game features or decisions a competition over who we love the most (as i said before, it's always going to be the people who have the most pie. Or bacon.). maybe in a future product, we'll side with the gamers who have the most chocolate ice cream, or maybe we'll favour the lactose-intolerant gamers out there. We just won't know until we get to that point, so until then, let's please remember that we're all here to enjoy BioWare's games and have fun, and be excellent to each other.

[Ziggeh]

Harid wrote...

Based exactly, upon what?  You guys seem to paint the complainers all with the same brush which is essentially why all of these threads go to **** 3 pages or so in.

This is true, generally speaking we should qualify statements more clearly, as there are definitely reasonable concerns being raised.

This discussion however started out with the discussion off unreasonable bashing, and I've been pretty consistent with that.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 07 décembre 2010 - 03:30 .

[Harid]

leonia42 wrote...

I feel like my post is being ignored, would like a response to this from the person advocating complaining as a good thing:

leonia42 wrote..

Now please explain to me how complaining about the possibility that DA 2 has been rushed through development will have a positive effect on the game and on the players who are making such a complaint? I can't wait to hear what you come up with.

I didn't get a response in five minutes, that speaks loudly of your opinion! /sarcasm

I never made the argument the game was rushed so I don't feel obliged to respond to you?

Thanks for proving my point though, I love when you guys do that, you do work for me.

[crimzontearz]

leonia42 wrote...

I feel like my post is being ignored, would like a response to this from the person advocating complaining as a good thing:

leonia42 wrote..

Now please explain to me how complaining about the possibility that DA 2 has been rushed through development will have a positive effect on the game and on the players who are making such a complaint? I can't wait to hear what you come up with.

I didn't get a response in five minutes, that speaks loudly of your opinion! /sarcasm

people ignore your posts because they get stuck admiring your dwarfette avatar   

[Leonia]

Harid wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I feel like my post is being ignored, would like a response to this from the person advocating complaining as a good thing:

leonia42 wrote..

Now please explain to me how complaining about the possibility that DA 2 has been rushed through development will have a positive effect on the game and on the players who are making such a complaint? I can't wait to hear what you come up with.

I didn't get a response in five minutes, that speaks loudly of your opinion! /sarcasm

I never made the argument the game was rushed so I don't feel obliged to respond to you?

Thanks for proving my point though, I love when you guys do that, you do work for me.

Oh come on, you used your Infamous 2 example to demonstrate that complaining=good thing. I want to know how the complaint in the OP here is a good thing. Oh, not ALL complaints are good things? Well, why didn't you say so!

[Stanley Woo]

Let's try to keep this on topic, please. thank you.

[Atakuma]

Harid wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I feel like my post is being ignored, would like a response to this from the person advocating complaining as a good thing:

leonia42 wrote..

Now please explain to me how complaining about the possibility that DA 2 has been rushed through development will have a positive effect on the game and on the players who are making such a complaint? I can't wait to hear what you come up with.

I didn't get a response in five minutes, that speaks loudly of your opinion! /sarcasm

I never made the argument the game was rushed so I don't feel obliged to respond to you?

Thanks for proving my point though, I love when you guys do that, you do work for me.

Being condescending tends to make people not want to talk to you.

Modifié par Atakuma, 07 décembre 2010 - 03:36 .

[Harid]

Atakuma wrote...

Harid wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I feel like my post is being ignored, would like a response to this from the person advocating complaining as a good thing:

leonia42 wrote..

Now please explain to me how complaining about the possibility that DA 2 has been rushed through development will have a positive effect on the game and on the players who are making such a complaint? I can't wait to hear what you come up with.

I didn't get a response in five minutes, that speaks loudly of your opinion! /sarcasm

I never made the argument the game was rushed so I don't feel obliged to respond to you?

Thanks for proving my point though, I love when you guys do that, you do work for me.

Being condescending tends to make people not want to talk to you.

Seeing as I some how became the spokesperson for the complainers, I really don't care.  Oh, by the way. . .

leonia42 wrote...

Oh come on, you used your Infamous 2
example to demonstrate that complaining=good thing. I want to know how
the complaint in the OP here is a good thing. Oh, not ALL complaints are
good things? Well, why didn't you say so!

I don't consider it a lack of common sense.  Sometimes complaints lead to positive change.  Companies, and people, **** up via not listening to detractors, in my opinion.  There is a balance, in my opinion, but no dev should ignore their fanbase completely, or the opposite.

I did.  I hope i don't have to full explain what "the opposite" is.

Modifié par Harid, 07 décembre 2010 - 03:41 .

[Perfect-Kenshin]

Stanley Woo wrote...

Yeah, we don't respond well to "rude and unreasonable," but we do like "well-reasoned and courteous," regardless of whether they're agreeing with us or criticizing us. That whole "treat others as you would like to be treated" thing? that "be excellent to each other" claptrap? Yup, we like that.

the problem comes when every single person wants the game to be more of what they like and how they play, forgetting that there are millions of other gamers out there who want the same thing, only they might not play the same as you or like the same things as you. If someone wants toggleable helmets and another doesn't, who do we listen to? that's right, the ones who send us the most pie!

Seriously, though, the final say in what goes into the game and what gets left out is ours and ours alone. the risk is ours, the work is ours, and so the decision must ultimately be ours as well. Occasionally, we'll make decisions as a result of some of the feedback we've gotten. That doesn't mean we're not listening to those who liked the game the way it was, however, and in no way are our game features or decisions a competition over who we love the most (as i said before, it's always going to be the people who have the most pie. Or bacon.). maybe in a future product, we'll side with the gamers who have the most chocolate ice cream, or maybe we'll favour the lactose-intolerant gamers out there. We just won't know until we get to that point, so until then, let's please remember that we're all here to enjoy BioWare's games and have fun, and be excellent to each other.

So are guys rushing this game or not?

[Bryy_Miller]

Harid wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

Being condescending tends to make people not want to talk to you.

Seeing as I some how became the spokesperson for the complainers, I really don't care.

And yet you are advocating that complaining equals progress. So you either do care, or you don't.

Anyways. Have fun on this diatribe.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 07 décembre 2010 - 03:41 .

[Leonia]

Harid wrote...

I don't consider it a lack of common sense.  Sometimes complaints lead to positive change.  Companies, and people, **** up via not listening to detractors, in my opinion.  There is a balance, in my opinion, but no dev should ignore their fanbase completely, or the opposite.

I did.  I hope i don't have to full explain what "the opposite" is.

So..essentially you have been off-topic with all of your posts in an attempt to make the point that complaining is progressive. Good for you. My work here is done, sorry for scurting the "off-topic" line a bit there, Mr. Woo.

Modifié par leonia42, 07 décembre 2010 - 03:44 .

[Harid]

leonia42 wrote...

Harid wrote...

I don't consider it a lack of common sense.  Sometimes complaints lead to positive change.  Companies, and people, **** up via not listening to detractors, in my opinion.  There is a balance, in my opinion, but no dev should ignore their fanbase completely, or the opposite.

I did.  I hope i don't have to full explain what "the opposite" is.

So..essentially you have been off-topic with all of your posts in an attempt to make the point that complaining is progressive. Good for you. My work here is done, sorry for scurting the "off-topic" line a bit there, Mr. Woo.

Now if only you realized that a page ago, when I stated that, you wouldn't have to try and save face now.  Goodbye.

[crimzontearz]

you know to be utterly honest....



something similar happened in ME2 with the whole NG+ issue (some of you may remember this). If no one at all had complained and voiced their opinion on the matter then NG+ would not have been in the game (no I seriously do not care if you despise the feature, that is not the point). If there is no criticism there is no improvement.



But the first post in the topic was.....well not useful at all.



there was also a wonderful article about communication between devs and fans/consumers on an old GI magazine, people (and devs) should read it

[slimgrin]

crimzontearz wrote...

If there is no criticism there is no improvement.

Quoted for truth.

[In Exile]

I remember NG+. We complained a lot for it, and Bioware eventually had this thread on why we wanted NG+ and what it meant to us etc. and eventually it led to it being implemented because the cost was deemed to be worth it re: fan satisfaction.

[Leonia]

Oh I am not dissing criticism, that's a good thing. Unreasonable and rude complaints? Not so good. Even if the OP got what they wanted (which is hard to figure out to begin with), what would that gain them?

[Ziggeh]

leonia42 wrote...

Unreasonable and rude complaints? Not so good.

I'd argue that they're actively detrimental to anything constructive.

[upsettingshorts]

slimgrin wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

If there is no criticism there is no improvement.

Quoted for truth.

That includes self-criticism and internal (as in, among Bioware developers) criticism, though.  If you're going to claim that only external criticism drives improvement... well, that's just not true. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 07 décembre 2010 - 04:02 .