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Understanding Arl Rendon Howe


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#1
KnightofPhoenix

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This is something I've always wanted to do. Understand the character that I presume everyone hates (and rightfully so). At first, I only looked at him as a villain who was not supposed to be complex or identifiable. Just someone to hate to drive a Cousland forward (without him, the Origin would have been boring). But after thinking about it some more, I think there is more to it than that.

This is not an attempt by me to justify Howe and his actions. Just a pointless excercize in trying to understand him.

I personally believe that Howe was motivated by three things:
1) personal power and greed
2) Family honor
3) Ferelden interests

I think that the first two are more important to Howe, than Ferelden perse (unlike Loghain).

So I want to attempt to explain the family bit. What could Howe want for his family?

We know that the Howes are one of the oldest families in Ferelden and one of the first to support Calenhad:

The Howes of Amaranthine are one of the oldest noble families in Ferelden. Their lineage traces to the time of Calenhad, when Elias Howe was one of the first freeholders to follow Calenhad.

The family has also had several heroes. So as we can see, the Howe family is a proud family. Rendon Howe does display family pride and duty on several occasions.When discussing possible marriage of his daugher in the HN origin,  he says with some pride that he'll consider the issue as "befitting a family of our stature".
Also, as Nathaniel Howe tells us, Rendon thought that the Howe who joined the Wardens as a traitor to his family, because he dedicated his life to a foreign order instead of his family. 

The Howe family was disgraced when they sided with Orlais, but Rendon sided with Maric:

Rendon brought the Howe family over to the side of Maric Theirin and Loghain Mac Tir's rebellion. Rendon's bravery at the battle of White River, fighting alongside Bryce Cousland, earned back his family's honour. When King Maric took the throne in free Ferelden, Rendon Howe was decorated for his service.


Now it can be argued that he shifted allegiances to the winning side, but I would argue that it's not clear who the winning side was at the time. The battle of the White River resulted in a huge defeat, and only 50 rebels survived. And it's in that battle that Rendon displayed bravery and dedication. So if if the battle was lost on such a scale, then it's not really clear who was winning.

I don't deny Rendon's potential opportunism. But in a battle where only 50 people survived, Rendon displayed bravery and courage that might not be characteristic of a complete opportunist.
Also, keep in mind that he actually speaks very fondly of Maric and pities the fact that Cailan isn't half that. He could be acting, but I saw something genuine there.

Also, he was apparently very strict with his children, which can be attributed to a desire to strengthen the family. I think he had high expectations for them, and while they might have been slightly exagerrated, it might still stem from a sense of  duty towards family, especially a family whose influence and power diminished (or was cheated, as he might believe).

So in understanding his devotion to his family, we can seek to understand why he hated the Couslands or at least wanted them dead.

Now if I understand correctly, the Howes became vassals to the Couslands from before (or is it after the rebellion?). Highever was once a vassal of Amaranthine and the Howes. The Couslands fought a war of independence and defeated them.  So there might be an element of revisionism / very old grudge at play here.

But there might also be a recent "grudge" vis a vis Bryce. Both Bryce and he fought in the battle of the White River and both were decorated by Maric for their service. And yet, Bryce is loved (enough to be considered a possible succesor of Maric) and Howe is hated (add the fact that the Couslands took Harper's ford).

Now this might be very hurtful to Howe. He might not understand that he is an annoying person. He might feel that he is unjustly treated, that Bryce did nothing better than him. So why is it he is hated while Bryce is loved? 
In situations like this, especially when someone is very prideful, percieved injustice might turn to hatred or at the very least extreme jealousy and we see this in Howe. He tells us that the Couslands have held him back.

IIRC correctly, I remember Nathaniel saying that Howe married a woman of higher station and that Howe always strived to feel accepted by her parents. That he wanted to prove himself. Add this, plus Bryce overshadowing him, plus his father almost ruining the family, then you can have a very bitter man who wants to prove his worth and his family's. 

Also, Howe does seem convinced that the Couslands were doing something with Orlais. Because I don't see the point of him using forged rethoric to a Cousland, he wouldn't care if you think he is justified or not. Yet he brings up the Orlesian connection anyhow. I don't think it was to convince us of anything, I think this is something he genuinely believes or perhaps something he made himself believe.

Now there is clearly an element of greed in Howe. We know that he stole from the royal treasury to give gifts to his mistress and has his own silver bars storage (see Slim Couldry quest). He also kidnapped a noble's kid for ransom. Kylon says that Howe's men are sometimes criminals themselves.
So it seems that Howe put in place some sort of a mafia ring and so his loyalty to Ferelden is very questionable.

Hence I don't think I need to delve too much into personal ambition and greed, his very last words are "I deserved more" and I think that's clear enough. I just wanted to give a more nuanced interpretation.

He also displays sadism in the Denerim estate  and loves to toy with the feelings of a Cousland. He shows no remorse for doing what he did, and while him taunting us might be a tactic to enrage us, I think part of him enjoyed it still. He pales in comparision to Commander Raleigh though.

At the same time however, he does display what I interpretted it to be some kind of relunctance, if only for a few seconds. In the HN, you can wish him luck or something to that effect in a warm fashion and he says: "I...thank you, that is...quite unnecessary". And I detected some sadness in that statement.
Now when I first played and I didn't know what was going to happen, I thought he was just anxious about going to fight darkspawn and possibly dying and he didn't need someone to remind him of it. But now I see it as relunctance. Could it be that Howe experienced relunctance when the person he was planing to kill displays some affection or concern for him? I really think this is possible.

Also, in the Toolset, the VO notes for Howe's reply when you persuade / intimidate is something like this (paraphrasing):
"He sees that you've made something of yourself. He thinks Bryce would have been proud of you and in different circumstances, he would have been too".
Now I hesitate to use the toolset as evidence, lots of things could have changed or got cut. But if this particular VO is true, then Howe, despite his hatred and resentment, can still feel some sort of a friendship with Bryce, so much so that he would feel proud of what Bryce's offspring has accomplished.
Those two examples, I bring forward to argue that Howe is not emotionless. Not compeltely.

I think there is a certain element of tragedy in Howe. I think all his life he aspired to be true to the Howe name and that despite everything he's done (or so he might believe), the Couslands overshadowed him still and his family and they were once their vassals. The tragedy is that in seeking to bring power and honor to his family, he ends up virtually destroying it and rendering it pariah (if it isn't for Nathaniel, and even that isn't certain as anything could have happened, the damage could have been permanent).

I believe that deep down inside, Howe is a very bitter man because he feels he and his family were unjustly treated and cheated. Bitterness and resentment, especially one that is concealed and kept within, can be much more dangerous. I think they ended up overpowering whatever positive feelings he might have had towards Bryce, his comrade in arms and friend, and the Cousland family that, in different circumstances, he might have considered his own.


PS: Please. PLEASE. Try to keep Loghain out of this as late as possible (like several pages at least without Loghain showing up, if it does come to several pages). This is not to debate whether Howe knew what Loghain was planing, or if Loghain knew what Howe was planing. Or if they mutually knew what they were planing.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 02:21 .


#2
Shadow of Light Dragon

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Don't have time to reply in depth, but wanted to comment on this observation:

At the same time however, he does display what I interpretted it to be some kind of relunctance, if only for a few seconds. In the HN, you can wish him luck or something to that effect in a warm fashion and he says: "I...thank you, that is...quite unnecessary". And I detected some sadness in that statement.


I have to say I didn't detect sadness at all (although I can't re-examine the scene right now). To me it felt like he was trying to keep a straight face and not laugh. :/ This isn't to say he's without emotion, in regards to the rest of your post. Just a different POV re that bit. :)

Modifié par Shadow of Light Dragon, 07 décembre 2010 - 01:57 .


#3
KnightofPhoenix

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I re-examined it right now. Maybe not sadness, but it looks to me like he hesitated. That he was startled by your concern. And the way he avoids your gaze. I don't know. I definately saw something other than trying not to laugh. Only my interpretation anyhow.

EDIT:
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If you focus on his mouth, you might see some smirk (I saw it as an awkward smile).
But his eyes, I think, tell a different story.

Then again, he could be acting.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 02:11 .


#4
Melca36

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From Awakenings though, you learn how dysfunctional the Howe's were.



I actually think he hated how the Cousland's were a loving family.

#5
KnightofPhoenix

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Melca36 wrote...

From Awakenings though, you learn how dysfunctional the Howe's were.

I actually think he hated how the Cousland's were a loving family.


Yea, good point.

He might also envy Bryce for having the better family.

I did talk about how he hated his wife because of her family and how they apparently look down on him (he does afterall have a mistress which is not an indicator of a healthy marriage imo). So yes, that might make his jealousy even double and more personal.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 02:07 .


#6
Sarah1281

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His wife was dead by that point. Who knows if the mistress was pre-widower Howe or not. So do we know that Lady Howe had a better family than Howe? If so, there's not many options since coming from the family of a fellow Arl would put them at a higher status and she can't be a Cousland and unlikely a member of the family of whoever initially held Gwaren. She could always be foreign, I guess. Not Orlesian as we would have heard something but but Antivan? Or from the Free Marches. Howe does make a nasty comment about Oriana's Antivan roots but given that he hated his wife that doesn't rule it out.

#7
Melca36

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

From Awakenings though, you learn how dysfunctional the Howe's were.

I actually think he hated how the Cousland's were a loving family.


Yea, good point.

He might also envy Bryce for having the better family.

I did talk about how he hated his wife because of her family and how they apparently look down on him (he does afterall have a mistress which is not an indicator of a healthy marriage imo). So yes, that might make his jealousy even double and more personal.



I wish we would have gotten a glimpse of this mistress. Even some dialogue would have provided some more insight about Howe.

And do you think it worried Howe when he realized Bryce's youngest escaped?

Also I am a firm believer that Howe even disliked Loghain and used his paranoia about Orlais.

#8
KnightofPhoenix

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@ Sarah.
It could be because Lady Howe's family still saw the Howes as Orlesian collaborators, despite everything and as such the honor of the Howes was still stained. I wish we could have learned more about her. Then again, it might be because they hated him personally and he just can't figure that out.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 02:14 .


#9
KnightofPhoenix

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Melca36 wrote...
I wish we would have gotten a glimpse of this mistress. Even some dialogue would have provided some more insight about Howe.


Apparently she is a "fat cow" but Couldry is very biased against nobles. Her name is Lady Sophie.

Melca36 wrote...
And do you think it worried Howe when he realized Bryce's youngest escaped?


I'd think so.
At the same time, if the VO notes are naythign to go by, he feels some sort of pride. At least a tiny bit, though he doesn't express it. 

#10
Hayllee

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I've thought about Howe's mental state, but was too lazy to actually suggest anything. In my own conclusion, he probably didn't have the best time in his early years, fought in a terrible war that could have possibly scarred him as bad as the HN (after all, no one really knows who he could have lost) and watched his best friend lead a perfect life after all of it while he had a nasty (or seems to be) wife, three children, and unresolved mental issues. I actually feel kind of sorry for the guy. Kind of. Oddly though, he's become one of my least favortite to one of my most favorite characters just by looking at everything from a different point of view.

Modifié par Hayllee, 07 décembre 2010 - 02:27 .


#11
TJPags

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Really, what that all boils down to me is, he's driven by greed and a lust for power, both for himself and his family.



Now, those aren't necesarily bad traits, but the fact that he throws decency (to put it mildly) out the window to attain them IS a bad trait.

#12
KnightofPhoenix

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Hayllee wrote...

I've thought about Howe's mental state, but was too lazy to actually suggest anything. In my own conclusion, he probably didn't have the best time in his early years, fought in a terrible war that could have possibly scarred him as bad as the HN (after all, no one really knows who he could have lost) and watched his best friend lead a perfect life after all of it while he had a nasty (or seems to be) wife, three children, and unresolved mental issues. I actually feel kind of sorry for the guy. Kind of.


The DA wikia says that apparently:
"Bryland implied that Howe's personality altered after the battle [of White River]"
(I can't confirm this as I can't recall, but in my current playthrough I might come across it)

I think it hardened him, 50 people only survived afterall.
Add to that that Bryce is loved and he is hated despite being as brave and courageaous as Bryce was (or that's what he might believe).

I too somewhat feel sorry for him and see tragedy in his story, in the sense of him being the worst enemy of both himself and his family without realizing it. Of course the tragedy he inflicts on others is higher and nothing can explain his corruption other than greed (and by that I meant stealing from the royal treasury).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 02:32 .


#13
Mister_Shepard

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I hate his nose. omg

he's like a human squidward or something.

#14
Zjarcal

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Well, I know you said you wanted to keep the toolset out of this but I had to fetch up the VO note for the "I... thank you. That is quite... unnecessary" line...



' Unused to unmotivated well-wishing. "I only praise when it gets me something, so I'm suspicious of others who praise me out of the blue." '



Hmm, I would actually have to see his reaction in game myself to have an opinion on such line (I have never talked to him actually, I will when I replay my HNF), but I honestly doubt he was showing regret or sadness here, just plain awkwardness.

#15
KnightofPhoenix

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TJPags wrote...

Really, what that all boils down to me is, he's driven by greed and a lust for power, both for himself and his family.

Now, those aren't necesarily bad traits, but the fact that he throws decency (to put it mildly) out the window to attain them IS a bad trait.


The question is why does he throw decency out the window. Is his lust for power is a cause? Or a symptom of something? Or a mix of both?

My personal interpretation is that something clicked in him, and I believe it's a feeling of being unjustly treated and cheated.
If we want to analyse his last words (if that is even pertinent), he does say he wants "moar" but he also says that he deserves it. Now it could be because he thinks that highly of himself and that is very likely. But maybe he also genuinely believed that his family deserved more than what it got.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 02:41 .


#16
KnightofPhoenix

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Zjarcal wrote...

Well, I know you said you wanted to keep the toolset out of this but I had to fetch up the VO note for the "I... thank you. That is quite... unnecessary" line...

' Unused to unmotivated well-wishing. "I only praise when it gets me something, so I'm suspicious of others who praise me out of the blue." '

Hmm, I would actually have to see his reaction in game myself to have an opinion on such line (I have never talked to him actually, I will when I replay my HNF), but I honestly doubt he was showing regret or sadness here, just plain awkwardness.


His facial expression doesn't show much suspicion.
I wasn't saying he was showing regret perse, but rather relunctance or hesitation if only slightly. But if the VO is true, then it's probably just awkward suspicion, which could still show that he is not used to genuine well wishing, and I thought this might have moved him a tiny bit at least. Oh well. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 02:40 .


#17
TJPags

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Really, what that all boils down to me is, he's driven by greed and a lust for power, both for himself and his family.

Now, those aren't necesarily bad traits, but the fact that he throws decency (to put it mildly) out the window to attain them IS a bad trait.


The question is why does he throw decency out the window. Is his lust for power is a cause? Or a symptom of something? Or a mix of both?

My personal interpretation is that something clicked in him, and I believe it's a feeling of being unjustly treated and cheated.
If we want to analyse his last words (if that is even pertinent), he does say he wants "moar" but he also says that he deserves it. Now it could be because he thinks that highly of himself and that is very likely. But maybe he also genuinely believed that his family deserved more than what it got.


Something tells me that you and I are going to disagree on this, but here goes:

Nobody "deserves" anything.  You get what you earn.

Now, given that his father sided with the Orlesians, it's not unexpected that people would look at Rendon as if he were trying to jump to the other side for reasons other than, it was the right thing to do (and by that I mean, whether the Orlesians needed to be thrown out).  If he can't understand that, well, that's one problem he has.

Next  - I don't remember all his codex entries, so someone can feel free to correct me on this, but when we first see him as a HN, he's scheming.  Specifically, he's scheming to kill your family, what with the whole "the rain slowed my men down, sorry about that" BS he tosses out.  After that, we see him doing Loghain's bidding - in rather gruesome ways, I might add. 

When you actually meet him again, he goes to lengths to point out his list of new titles, garnered at the cost of lives, blood and pain of many people - and he does so with a hint of - pride?  Don't forget I'm also . . .?   Very superior air, to me - and doing so to the HN Warden is particularly off, IMO.

Now, somehow, I don't think he just woke up one day and decided to be this way.  I think he was this way from day one - whether it's because daddy didn't love him enough, or the Orlesians wouldn't let him play reindeer games with them, I have no idea.

But it don't seem to me that he "earned" anything, and therefore, to me, he "deserved" nothing.  People who feel they deserve something that their own actions haven't earned . . .well, people like that bother me.

#18
KnightofPhoenix

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I never said he deserved anything. I said this is what he might believe.

So no, I don't disagree with you.

EDIT: I do believe that his service in Ferelden's war of independence does earn him something. But it's less than what he might believe he deserves.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 07 décembre 2010 - 02:57 .


#19
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I do know when I confronted him and used the intimidate option he confessed that I had made something of myself, but that circumstance demanded he kill me. Not his exact words but that's what I took away from it.



My reply to the monitor was, "Too little, too late buddy - have a seat." SHIELD BASH. Howe gets up. "I said HAVE A SEAT." WAR CRY.



I like to fight Howe mono e mono. I always forcefield him, clear the room, then send my party way down the hall so I can fight him myself. Good day, good day.

#20
Zjarcal

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Hanz54321 wrote...
I like to fight Howe mono e mono. I always forcefield him, clear the room, then send my party way down the hall so I can fight him myself. Good day, good day.


OMG, I gotta do that when I replay my canon!!

#21
Addai

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Good thoughts, KoP, but I have a hard time seeing Howe as anything but pathological. Even war heroes and family men can be terrible people inside. I wonder if he witnessed some atrocities under the occupation and developed a taste for it, much as kids who see a lot of violence can go on to become monsters themselves.  Not all do, and it's kind of a mystery why some react that way and others not.

His opportunism is, I propose, just a playground where he can exercise his cruelty and power over what he sees as weaker, lesser beings.

Modifié par Addai67, 07 décembre 2010 - 03:49 .


#22
KnightofPhoenix

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Addai67 wrote...
His opportunism is, I propose, just a playground where he can exercise his cruelty and power over what he sees as weaker, lesser beings.


Could be.
I would prefer if he was a bit more complex than that though. That sentiment of sadistic superiority might stem from the beliefs / feelings that I believe he might have.

#23
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
His opportunism is, I propose, just a playground where he can exercise his cruelty and power over what he sees as weaker, lesser beings.


Could be.
I would prefer if he was a bit more complex than that though. That sentiment of sadistic superiority might stem from the beliefs / feelings that I believe he might have.


Wait, did you give some justification for his apparent sadistic side?  I missed that (being completely serious here).

I'd think if he wanted to indulge in his sadistic side, he'd have stayed with the Orlesians - that King of theirs in Ferelden (Mehgrin??) sure seemed like a sadistic bastard.  Such logic would seem to me to make his jump to the rebels even more obviously a "I'm going with the winners" move.

#24
KnightofPhoenix

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TJPags wrote...
Wait, did you give some justification for his apparent sadistic side?  I missed that (being completely serious here).


No.
Explanation =/= justification.

#25
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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I re-examined it right now. Maybe not sadness, but it looks to me like he hesitated. That he was startled by your concern. And the way he avoids your gaze. I don't know. I definately saw something other than trying not to laugh. Only my interpretation anyhow.

EDIT:
Posted Image

If you focus on his mouth, you might see some smirk (I saw it as an awkward smile).
But his eyes, I think, tell a different story.

Then again, he could be acting.

 
That face just screams "I'm laughing my ass off on the inside."

Modifié par The Water God, 07 décembre 2010 - 04:15 .