86 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

How does fighting in a battle where there were only 50 survivors involve Howe risking himself for himself? For all of Howe's many, many faults, I do not see any evidence that personal cowardice is among them. Even when you confront him in his dungeon, he fights to the end and doesn't even attempt to flee. Even if it is only luck that allowed him to survive that particular battle, the fact remains that he didn't flee then, either, and that he stood to lose more than he could have personally gained from the battle.

Edit: And obviously you can't see heroism in him in the game. By the time the game starts up, he's kind of evil.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:50 .

[OBakaSama]

Great discussion going on. I'll just chip in with something that I think I saw in the game but hasn't really been brought up yet.



As I understand Howe he still views the Orlesians with much contempt; and the Couslands do enjoy Orlesian refineries (if that makes any sense) when the human noble speaks to their mother and she mentions Bryce obtaining those silks. Could Howe view this as a sort of betrayal after everything they fought for?



Just a (very) minor thought.

[jpdipity]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Though, as a quick aside, I doubt Tarlteton Howe was Rendon's father, despite what the history books say. Nate claims his grandfather (also a Howe -- Padrig? Patrick?) was a Grey Warden recruit, after all. And since Rendon married someone from outside the Howe family, it would seem to rule out his maternal grandfather.

Seems more likely to me that Tarleton took Rendon as his own son, or claimed he was, once Pat. Howe abandoned the family. But who knows?

Rendon as Tarleton's grandson also seems supported by the fact Arl Byron Howe, presumably the successor to Arl Tarleton Howe, was Nate's "great-uncle".

The tutor in the HN origin tells you that Tarleton Howe was nearly ninety when they hung him which does make it seem like Rendon was his grandson. I'm not sure how Byron would fit into it, though, since Rendon took the Arling after the rebellion. Maybe after Padric Howe left Byron inherited the Arling but he died so Tarleton took it back over and after his death Rendon took it?

I agree with Sarah1281 - Byron just doesn't fit well at all.

Does Nate call Byron his great-uncle (I don't recall)?

In the books he is just "Arl Byron", the Arl of Amaranthine, and is described as young with a wife and children who were sent away during the rebellion.  Byron left his lands and duties to join the rebellion.  So, if he is a Howe, why is Rendon credited with switching the Howe's loyalty to the rebellion instead of Byron?

It would not surprise me if Rendon and Tarleton's relationship is not right since the codex is what is believed at the time and not necessarily the truth.  On the other hand, It also would not surprise me if the tutor exagerrated his age.  Would a 90 year old man still be running things?  What's the point in hanging a 90 year old anyway?

As far as understanding Howe, I think that there is probably more to him than we see.  Unfortunately, it seems as if the storyline had quite a few crucial cuts that really make the intentions of some characters seem shallow.  The first time I played, I immediately thought that Howe's hesitation or pause in thanking the HN was for a reason.  I believe Howe takes over Highever because he feels that he must.  He goes overboard, of course, and slaughters every one (or so he thinks), but I think that there was likely more than just greed involved.  I also think he sincerely believes that he deserved more and that the Couslands were conspiring with Orlais.  I believe he thinks that what he is doing is right although his methods are extreme.

[Wedger]

Hmmm, best discussion I’ve seen in awhile.



Howe has always been hard for me for the role play aspect of the game, as I sometimes want my Warden to see the best in everyone, and he makes it so darn hard.



My thoughts:

His “I..thank you,” is so similar to Anora’s when you offer her help, I thought it might be driven by the same motivator. As if they are startled that you would think kindly of them… as it made what they were thinking a tad harder to live with. Yes, a slight guilty start.



I’m sure though, that he really believed in all his justifications for what he did.

Eamon, Couslands & Grey Wardens were in cahoots with Orlais

The elves would just get in the way if the blight reached Denerim, and by telling them, some good would come of ‘em

Anora needed to be reigned in as she was out of control



The scene where Howe starts to tell Loghain that things are going as planned and Anora walks in to confront her father about Cailin… I’ve never been quit sure what to think of that. Howe seems almost nervous, and I wonder why? I have guesses… Is he lying about how well things are going? Has Loghain been in a foul mood and he just wasn’t sure of himself? Was there some other plot he was thinking of, which later, his taking “care” of Anora gave him leverage for?

[Wedger]

Actually, as I recall, he starts off with “things are going exactly you planned” or similar….

[KnightofPhoenix]

Hanz54321 wrote...

Wedger wrote...

Actually, as I recall, he starts off with “things are going exactly you planned” or similar….

If you take the time to watch the cutscene again and listen intently . . . I'll need to say nothing more.

Yes, when Eamon accuses Howe and Cauthrien to be sycophants, he is at least right about Howe.
He is telling Loghain what he wants to hear and only speaks his mind once Anora does.

[testing123]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...
Now this might be very hurtful to Howe. He might not understand that he is an annoying person.

Haha, worth the read just for those two sentences.

I know this has been around for awhile, but I haven't really had a chance to reply until now.  I too have wanted to take a closer look at the most universally reviled character in Dragon Age, but I've never really been able to put it all together.  I didn't feel like I had enough of a look at the character to really understand him.  But given the aversion of the Dragon Age universe to the strict dichotomy of good and evil, I was sure that there was a side of Howe we weren't seeing.  This is reinforced by the fact that when his son shows up in Awakening he remembers his father as a hero.  (You can change his mind but I feel like it does signal an important point.)

Family.  You hit on it perfectly, 'family honor.'  I think it's most useful for me to equate Howe to the head of a sort of Mafia family, he's willing to do criminal things to make sure he and his family get to where he feels they belong.  I don't think that it's a coincidence that the only person we ever meet in Dragon Age that ever has anything good to say about him is his son.  Even if Nathaniel eventually opens his eyes to the seedier parts of Howe's nature, there had to be some reason for his rose colored memories.  If there is such a thing as a sympathetic side to Howe, I believe it is his... family devotion?

In regards to the Battle of White River, I'll take a particularly skeptical view.  The battle was a massacre.  Bryce and Rendon survived it, that doesn't mean they actually behaved 'heroically.'  Perhaps there is more revealed of that battle than I know, there is certainly circumstantial evidence that whatever happened there changed Howe for the worse, but it just seems to me that to be one of the very few surivivors of a horrific battle, you would likely have to make some decisions that are distinctly 'unheroic.'  The fight for survival is rarely a dignified one.  In conclusion, what I'm saying is I don't know enough about the specifics of that battle to know what it says about Howe's character.  A lot of things could have happened, Howe could have been haunted by the decisions he made at that battle as much as the massacre he witnessed.  

Rendon Howe is like Rodney Dangerfield, he can't get no respect.  I think if you take the mafia/family angle to its fullest extent you could create a more sympathetic protagonist.  The Godfather (regarding family) and Scarface (regarding respect)  come to mind.  Ultimately, going that direction didn't really fit in the story Bioware wanted to tell, so the potential wasn't tapped.  Nevertheless, the hints remain and goes to show the effort that was put in to create characters that truly feel realistic.

Appreciate the thread, good job.  Next topics, 'Why the Archdemon isn't such a bad guy' and 'Duncan:  Evil, or the MOST evil character in Dragon Age?'

[Sarah1281]

'Duncan: Evil, or the MOST evil character in Dragon Age?'

I have totally seen this argued (at least the former if not the latter).

[KnightofPhoenix]

jvee wrote...
 Next topics, 'Why the Archdemon isn't such a bad guy' and 'Duncan:  Evil, or the MOST evil character in Dragon Age?'

Well if the archdemon does not have any free will at all and is just insane from the taint, then he isn't a "bad guy", just a destructive beast.

And actually there was a thread or two about Duncan being "evil".

[Ryzaki]

Hanz54321 wrote...


Intimidate him when you confront him in Denerim.  He doesn't give you the, "Yo Mamam kissed my feet in front of Daddy," response.

Don't get me wrong - the man is a douche.  But he knows in his mind (not in his "heart) that the HNWarden is worthy of recognition.

Edit:  The intimidate needs to come right after he says your pathetic family is gone and forgotten.  If you tell him you are going to kill his daughter then you don't get to hear his touch of respect for you.

@the bolded: I always was a bit irritated you couldn't follow up on that. Sure you're being a complete monster but you can be a complete monster at other times. Yet this is where the line is drawn? :/

[Sarah1281]

@the bolded: I always was a bit irritated you couldn't follow up on that. Sure you're being a complete monster but you can be a complete monster at other times. Yet this is where the line is drawn? :/

Maybe you couldn't find her? Thomas is dead already, Nathaniel is out of the country, and you only find out where Delilah is from a groundskeeper who would probably pretend he had no idea what you ware talking about if you were chasing after her to kill her.

[LupusYondergirl]

OBakaSama wrote...
As I understand Howe he still views the Orlesians with much contempt; and the Couslands do enjoy Orlesian refineries (if that makes any sense) when the human noble speaks to their mother and she mentions Bryce obtaining those silks. Could Howe view this as a sort of betrayal after everything they fought for?

Just a (very) minor thought.

Probably not... if you do the theft quest Slim gives you in Denerim one of the targets is Howe's mistress- an Orlesian woman.
I'm thinking his overall contempt for Orlais is as much lip service to what was probably a very popular political stance than anything else.

[PatT2]

Howe. A state-sanctioned serial killer. Raw greed and lust for power are both...well...I can't imagine a scenario where they've been good. I don't really think it's an accident that lust and greed both rank the list of 7 deadly sins. They first rot and kill the person who has them, and then everything that person touches.



To me, the Howe is a sociopath, and he is startled/surprised that anyone else isn't (and maybe it just for an instant reminds him just how corrupt and low he's become). At any rate, the guy is certifiable. And anyone who doesn't see that needs to rethink their own values.



Power doesn't corrupt. It attracts the corruptible. The people who would be the best presidents would never run. They would run the other way. They wouldn't take the job. Power, ambition and greed has tanked the world economy for the advantage of a very few, to the hurt of billions. Just how is that good?



Don't worry. The oppressed eventually become the oppressors and turn the evil back on the people who oppressed them (they are paying attention while biding their time) and the atrocities just get worse and worse and worse.



Wonderful. I doubt Howe has the capacity to understand his own motives.

[Costin_Razvan]

I wonder how come Howe actually got the Arling his uncle once held. Yes his uncle was killed but what happened to his family ( children and wife ) so that Rendon took the arling.

My suspicion is that the Couslands killed them save Rendon, which would explain why he has a deep hatred for them.

Personally I don't rightly care that much about Howe. "Shrug" I do have a HN but he really doesn't matter that much to me compared to my DN or DE.( Who only meet him after they meet Loghain in Denerim, so it's not much to go by really ).

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 24 décembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[Sarah1281]

Maybe Howe's uncle didn't have any children.

Power doesn't corrupt. It attracts the corruptible. The people who would be the best presidents would never run. They would run the other way. They wouldn't take the job. Power, ambition and greed has tanked the world economy for the advantage of a very few, to the hurt of billions. Just how is that good?

That sounds like a pretty wide generalization.

[Costin_Razvan]

Maybe Howe's uncle didn't have any children.

The Stolen Throne does clearly state that he did have.

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Howe who sided with the Orlesians was hung by the Couslands once they took Harper's Ford IIRC. I wonder when Howe turned to the rebellion. Was it before or after Harper's Ford was taken I wonder?

It is possible that Howe's heirs were killed during the battle, or the rebellion in general. But I don't think Rendon would hold that much of a grudge over it. Especially if he joined the rebellion before Harper's Ford. 

However, it does mention that it was Rendon who shifted House Howe's allegience to Maric, which does imply that it was after Harper's Ford.

EDIT: actually, it's Rendon's father, Tarleton who was the Arl and he was the one who sided with the Orlesians.

The Howes of Amaranthine are one of the oldest noble families in
Ferelden. Their lineage traces to the time of Calenhad, when Elias Howe
was one of the first freeholders to follow Calenhad.


During the occupation, Arl Tarleton Howe, Rendon Howe's father,
threw his lot in with the Orlesians. After several bitter battles with
rebels, the town of Harper's Ford--an outpost governed by Tarleton
Howe--fell to the Couslands of Highever. Tarleton hanged.


Rendon brought the Howe family over to the side of Maric Theirin and
Loghain Mac Tir's rebellion. Rendon's bravery at the battle of White
River, fighting alongside Bryce Cousland, earned back his family's
honour. When King Maric took the throne in free Ferelden, Rendon Howe
was decorated for his service.


--From Annals of Norther Ferelden, by Brother Bedine, Chantry scholar

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 24 décembre 2010 - 05:49 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Or maybe history is written by the victors Knight. My personal view is that the Couslands supported the Orlesians while the Howes did not. One would think the Stolen Throne would have something to suggest a Teryn throwing his lot behind the rebels, but it does not.



I just don't trust codex entries that much. Quite a few of them are flawed.