105 réponses à ce sujet

[ninjaDance]

First, I apologize for posting in this forum, but, for whatever reason, there's no button to post new topics in the spoiler forum. I half-jokingly label this as a 'superspoiler' because I'm discussing both the game and the Stolen Throne, having finished both.

Warning over!

About Loghain. While I was playing through the game, I found Loghain's actions increasingly strange. In the book, he was generally ruthless, but also had a heart and, frankly, he was a hell of a lot more logical in the book. I watched his personality go from an overly angry, rash man at the tent in Ostagar, to abandoning his best friend and previous lover's (Rowan's) only son to death soon after, and then to inciting a civil war while the Blight gathered. All this from the stoney, logical man that was presented in the book.

So what happened? While I was playing through the game, I honestly half-expected them to pull as 'he's possessed!' cliche, because that was the only light in which I felt his actions could be explained. When it came down to, 'Oops, I guess I made a mistake, there. My bad.' after the duel, I was pretty disappointed. Not with the lack of cliche, but for the lack of explanation for a character Gaider spent so much effort building up.

To be fair, after he joined the party, he spoke and acted a little more like I would have expected. But that's a pretty brief time, and not really his spotlight in the game.

So what are your thoughts on Loghain's actions? I really struggle to see the sense in them.

[Worloch]

Please don't post spoilers in this forum, even if you can't post in the spoilers forum.

[marshalleck]

I believe you need to register your game to be able to post in the Spoilers forum, where this thread belongs.

[ninjaDance]

Worloch wrote...

Please don't post spoilers in this forum, even if you can't post in the spoilers forum.

I'm certain those with eyes to read the post will manage to catch all of the spoiler warnings and prevent themselves from reading further. But thank you for your concern.

[ninjaDance]

marshalleck wrote...

I believe you need to register your game to be able to post in the Spoilers forum, where this thread belongs.

I do wonder about that. I registered it twice when it came out, and have two characters uploaded. I'll give it a shot again, though, thanks.

[Taleroth]

My entire impression of it was that he:

1) Underesimated the Blight and, in fact, did not believe it to be a true Blight.

2) Was absolutely infuriated at the notion of alliance with Orlais.



So, he killed Cailin to prevent Orlais from becoming involved, which is what Cailin was preparring to do. And he figured he could fight the Blight without him.



I don't know who this compares to the Loghain from the book.

[Yard Waste]

You know I can't understand why people continue to ignore the DO NOT POST SPOILERS rules for this area. Those that answer with more spoilers are just as inconsiderate.



Register the game properly and it isn't an issue. You can post.

[DASockDA]

Yeah, I had a problem with the Loghain in the game vs the Loghain from The Stolen Throne, too.



I just never would've expected Loghain to destroy the country that he helped build all because of his (justified) paranoia. That he gave Rowan's son a death sentence is also far beyond what I thought his character capable of. Now, if it was a losing fight... that's something else, but he still could've tried something to rescue the king.



As I played the game, I kept thinking that we were only seeing part of the story from his side, that when we met him we'd fight and then he'd reveal that he wasn't a power-mad paranoid lunatic, but that he was taking the steps that he thought necessary. In a way, I guess that -did- happen, but it was still not how I pictured him.

[Tankenminnet]

Perhaps Marics death changed him a lot, we don't really get to see any of that period, right?

[DASockDA]

We don't. Though, in the Orphanage in the Alienage, the little ghost has a chant...



"One two, Maric's run through..."

"Three four, kingdom's at war..."



So. Maybe Maric didn't die of natural causes.

[Tankenminnet]

I think that's actually refering directly to the stolen throne book. You know, he runs around and then there's war. He probably died of natural causes since there's no other mention of it. Or maybe some sickness.

[Mutant Dwarf]

Also, it turned out he was a power-mad paranoid lunatic even if he was still just taking the steps he thought necessary. Letting the Darkspawn devour the countryside? Must be necessary in order to prevent the Orlesians and their Grey Warden patsies from taking over Fereldan!



Remember, whether he thought it was a true blight or not, he still knew the Darkspawn had an army larger than his own, and he still just let them through his most defensible position without even token resistance. He then proceeded to never engage the Darkspawn in a single battle, preferring to sieze control of the country and install himself as regent instead of allow his daughter, the rightful queen, to rule while he took control of the army to stop the darkspawn invasion. All this while the darkspawn ravaged the entire country, and all because he thought the Grey Wardens were out to sieze control of Fereldan for Orlais.



In the game, he's a madman, pure and simple.

[themanynamed]

I'm glad someone has started a thread on this very
interesting and controversial character.  I don't know if you have
tried or not but it is possible to talk to Loghain if you grant him
mercy.  It helps a little to balance the book and game but I too
agree that more was needed to justify what happened.



From what I understand, it is not public knowledge that it must be a Grey
Warden that kills an Archdemon.  Given that the Wardens were implicated in
treachery against Meric, I suppose it's understandable that Loghain does
not trust them and would prefer to get rid of them.  If he had know
perhaps it would have been different.



As for killing Calian, the scenes where we did see interaction between them,
Loghain seems very frustrated.  Even desperate to stop Calian from allying
with who Loghain perceives as the enemy and rushing into a war he does not
understand.  Honestly, I though Calian was terribly naive.  I wonder
if all the fuss about Calian being in the front lines was an attempt to keep
him out of the planned slaughter.  Not that I'm certain how Loghain could
have managed that without Calian interfering in his order to exit the
battlefield.



The other stuff that happens (the slavery etc.) just doesn't seem to be
logical.  Why would someone who hates Orlais allow them to set up a
slaving operation in the city?  Even if they were taking only elves it's
just strange as hell.  Not to mention the stuff that Loghain allowed Howe
to do is the very type of cruelty he hated about Orlais.



I confess it's an intriguing puzzle to ponder.



MN.

Modifié par themanynamed, 13 novembre 2009 - 12:02 .

[Nyaore]

Mutant Dwarf wrote...

Also, it turned out he was a power-mad paranoid lunatic even if he was still just taking the steps he thought necessary. Letting the Darkspawn devour the countryside? Must be necessary in order to prevent the Orlesians and their Grey Warden patsies from taking over Fereldan!

Remember, whether he thought it was a true blight or not, he still knew the Darkspawn had an army larger than his own, and he still just let them through his most defensible position without even token resistance. He then proceeded to never engage the Darkspawn in a single battle, preferring to sieze control of the country and install himself as regent instead of allow his daughter, the rightful queen, to rule while he took control of the army to stop the darkspawn invasion. All this while the darkspawn ravaged the entire country, and all because he thought the Grey Wardens were out to sieze control of Fereldan for Orlais.

In the game, he's a madman, pure and simple.

Essentially this. I think that somewhere along the line, something in Loghain just snapped and he allowed himself to completely indulge his own paranoid thoughts over any logical reasoning. How long was the time period between the books and the game? Because a lot can happen to change a person over the course of even a handful of years.

He does seem to regret his actions after you force him into a corner during the Landsmeet, but overall he just comes off as a rather intelligent person who gave into his delusions at the cost of everything dear to him. Rather tragic in a sense - if you ignore all the war crimes he commited during his 'lapse' in judgement.

Modifié par Nyaore, 13 novembre 2009 - 12:11 .

[Kosiah]

What if he's right about Orlais though? That was something I half-expected to find out at the end: that Loghain was right and that Orlais was now delaying their assistance to weaken Ferelden more so they could take it over.

[Iceman82904]

It was the Tevinter selling elves as slaves, not the Orlesians.



Also, Orlais didn't delay their assistance, as Riordan mentions, they were turned back at the border.

[Amagoi]

This is one of the more interesting plots in the game to me as I read the books before the game. I really couldn't figure out how Loghain in the books became the Loghain of the game. Especially allowing his best friend and his love's son to die. Considering that Cailan was the last real thing left by Rowan (aside from Ferelden itself), it would seem reasonable Loghain himself would go to great lengths to save him rather than abandon him to die.

The only way  I could reason it was a line Maric said in The Calling, I forget what exactly he said but I know it included the stress he felt as King and the fact that "each year, I have to watch my best friend grow colder and colder." It was hinted that Maric and Loghain had a deal of stress and tension between the two of them, but I don't think he would ever have killed Maric.

Then again I wouldn't have believed he did all the things he did in DAO if I hadn't seen it.

[KnightofPhoenix]

He was "possessed" in some way. By Howe.

[hexaligned]

It amuses me that some people tend to think of Alistair as a "good" char, and Loghain as an "evil" one. Alistiar shows at the end of the game he is just as selfish and short sighted as Loghain is. Loghain can be summed up pretty easily by understanding he would rather see the knigdom burn than have it lose it's freedom again. You can second guess him in hindsight of course, but in the end, the Darkspawn were defeated, and the Kingdom is still free. What would have happened if Orlais had gotten a foothold again might have been more destructive.

[Thunderfox]

Doesn't Maric say 'we're all running away from some' about Loghain?



This trope would consider Loghain a Well Intentioned Extremist. He is willing to do whatever it takes to keep Ferelden strong and free. He didn't think Cailan was capable of leading the Nation, and well I can't say i blame him. I believe he honestly believed the Bannorn would ally with him, atleast until the Darkspawn "Threat" was dealt with. During which he thought he could convince them, so at least remove opposition to his bid.



Not a bad plan but a wrong one

[Thunderfox]

EDIT: double post

Modifié par ThunderfoxF, 16 novembre 2009 - 04:40 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

As I have argued else where. Loghain's logic is politically sound. But it was just based upon false premises, and they were not obviously false. 
Similar (although not the same) as Saren from Mass Effect.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 16 novembre 2009 - 04:30 .

[Wissenschaft]

Who says Loghain knew what Howe was doing? I get the feeling Howe was doing a lot of shaidy stuff.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 16 novembre 2009 - 04:38 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Who says Loghain knew what Howe was doing? I get the feeling Howe was doing a lot of shaidy stuff.

I think Loghain didn't know everything. In fact, Howe seems to be acting independly on many occasions. He was the one who contacted the Antivan Crows without Loghain's knowledge. In fact, Loghain sounded disgusted at the idea of contracting an assassin, as we see in the Zevran cutscene. But he reluctantly goes along with it. In addition, the elf sent to spy on Redcliff said he was contacted by Howe. We do not know if Loghain knew of this.
Howe kidnaps Loghain's daughter without his knowledge. 

In the landsmeet, Loghain denies that he knew about Howe's prisoners. Of course he could be lying. But I somehow think that even if Loghain knew, he wasn't the one who ordered it. WE know that Howe was an ambitious sob. Hell, who in the world utters "I deserved more" as his last breath? 

[Medivan]

Well someone in the game mentions that Howe is planting a lot of things into Loghain's head, it was Howe's idea to use the Crows after all. Also it did feel as though Loghain was trying to prevent the king from being on the Battlefield with the Grey Wardens. Honestly, it may be that Loghain found out about the "grand rebellion" in history books (Soldiers Peak DLC), after all it would make sense that the history books he would read would be the ones in the Castle, and those are of course going to make the king at that time look good and the Warden's bad.