105 réponses à ce sujet

[Kalistara]

Wow, I have played through this game twice and am on my third time. I had noooo idea you could have Loghain in your party until I read this. Guess I have a new direction to go for my third time through hehe

[Lotion Soronarr]

relhart wrote...

It amuses me that some people tend to think of Alistair as a "good" char, and Loghain as an "evil" one. Alistiar shows at the end of the game he is just as selfish and short sighted as Loghain is. Loghain can be summed up pretty easily by understanding he would rather see the knigdom burn than have it lose it's freedom again. You can second guess him in hindsight of course, but in the end, the Darkspawn were defeated, and the Kingdom is still free. What would have happened if Orlais had gotten a foothold again might have been more destructive.

More desctructive than Darkspawn? Are you totally insane? Darkspawn kill and destroy EVERYTHING. Noting the Orlesians could do can possibly match that.

Let's not forget that between the end of The Calling and and hte start of hte game, a lot of time has passed. Who knows what happened exactly to Loghain. Marics death might have impacted him more severaly than most people realize. Or he might have started to loose it a lot earlier. It seems to me that he allready started to chenge in the Calling.
And with Cailan not worshiping his every words, unlike his departed father, Loghain just felt that everything is ...wrong. At some point something snapped I guess.

His sudden "conversion" at the Landsmeet seems like it was tacked on at the last second.
"You orlesian spy! I'll never let you take over Ferelden! Even if I have to kill half hte banns in the coutnry and re-institute slavery!"
*one defeat later*
"You...you are a skilled fihgter. You bested me. Clearly that proves you are good for Ferelden. As we all know martial prowess is the key to understanding everything!"



So no...don't compare Alistair to him. They are nothing alike.
Especially saying taht Alistair is shortsighted. That is pure bollocks.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 16 décembre 2009 - 05:02 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Who says Loghain knew what Howe was doing? I get the feeling Howe was doing a lot of shaidy stuff.

Does Loghain strike you as a type whl would realyl let that get past him? He's trying to control a whole country, surely an attack on the Cuslands could not get unnoticed. Heck, he knows about it in Ostagar. He knows Howe did it.
I find it hard to belive that Howe could do whatever he wants in Loghains town, especially after teh slip-up with the Couslands.

[Ariella]

relhart wrote...

It amuses me that some people tend to think of Alistair as a "good" char, and Loghain as an "evil" one. Alistiar shows at the end of the game he is just as selfish and short sighted as Loghain is. Loghain can be summed up pretty easily by understanding he would rather see the knigdom burn than have it lose it's freedom again. You can second guess him in hindsight of course, but in the end, the Darkspawn were defeated, and the Kingdom is still free. What would have happened if Orlais had gotten a foothold again might have been more destructive.

First of all trying to compare Loghain's actions throughout the game with Alistair's anger at the Landsmeet is like trying to compare cats and tea cups- two totally different things.

Alistair was neither selfish nor short sighted. He'd seen first hand what Loghain's actions had wrought. Listen to him talk to Leliana sometime about Lothering and all the people there who died. Alistair would have saved them all if he could, and he hates the whole idea of sacrificing a few for the "greater good". Loghain, however had no problem sacrificing them, along with Cailan and the hundreds at Ostagar along with the entire south of Fereldan.

Talk about "second guessing in hindsight" no one was aware at the time that the Blight would be beaten back, and Fereldan would not be lost. Talk to Bann Wulf in the Gnawed Nohble tavern during the Landsmeet and have him describe to you what the Blight does to the land itself. You're laboring under the same misconception that Loghain was, that the Blight is simply another army that could be marched against, when it truly is a natural disaster. There's a reason the word blight is used. The land itself becomes so sick with taint nothing will grow, the very air chokes you and people sicken and either die or become ghouls to serve the darkspawn. Occupation by Orlais is a much lesser evil.

Speaking of potenial footholds and re-occupation by Orlais... Wouldn't happen, because the Grey Wardens wouldn't allow it, as it would destroy their neutrality and thus their ability to combat the darkspawn throughout Thedas. If Orlais were to use the Wardens as a cover for invasion NO country would trust the Wardens again, and since a lot of the Wardens political power is based on how they are percieved, it's in the Wardens best interest to insure the troops they bring with will be leaving once the Blight ends.

And no, this is not like the Warden coup of two centuries ago in Fereldan, since those Wardens were Fereldan Wardens, not outsiders. The perceptions is that it was an internal affair, rather than another nation using the Wardens as a pretext for invasion.

[Freestorm Skinn]

I think Loghain in the game is a progression from the one in the book. In THE CALLING, Loghain correctly suspects that the Orlesians were plotting to kidnap King Maric to take back to Orlais, and he never stops being suspicious of Orlais, especially after their Empress openly declared a desire to have an empire stretching across the thedas, despite signing a peace treaty with Ferelden. Loghain's entire rationale in the game is that he's not really convinced there's really a Blight coming, only that the darkspawn is on the march. He doesn't trust the Grey Wardens because since their main base is in Orlais, he believes they're an Orlesian front to invade Ferelden again, despite their declared neutrality. That's why he had them turned back at the border.

[celdoloth]

To be honest, considering a few things, Loghain's actions make more sense.



First, we have to assume that he does not believe this is a true blight. The Archdemon was very intelligent in not revealing himself too soon. With no Archdemon to see, unlike the past 4 Blights where the Archdemon revealed itself rather soon, most people were suspecting (see wishful thinking), that this was not a Blight.



If this is not a true Blight, then it is not that great of a threat, and Orlais would be a greater threat.



However, consider this: Would you rather be a slave or die? Some would rather be a slave, but this very nation sacrificed many lives in order to secure freedom, and the rule of Britain was not nearly as oppressive as Orlais'.



If Loghain is convinced that Orlais was trying to regain control, he might have considered the Blight's threat, and determined that he would do anything, sacrifice anything, in order to prevent it. Even if that meant that Ferelden burned around him, he could rest easy in knowing that its people would not suffer what his parents did: his father watching his mother get raped and murdered.



Loghain's assumptions about the evil of Orlais are exaggerated, but in his mind, he did the only thing he could.

[celdoloth]

Another thought occurred to me. In a conversaton with Wynne, Loghain states that he felt the loss of every man at the Battle of Ostagar.



Remember what we have heard: both the Grey Wardens, and Loghain, believed that the darkspawn could not be defeated in one large battle. A large battle risked far too much. What the Grey Wardens and Loghain disagreed on was what to do about it. (Wardens wanted to wait for Orlesian reinforcements, Loghain wanted to just wait until all of Ferelden's armies were there and fight a defensive war.)



But King Cailan insisted that there be a glorious battle to destroy the darkspawn and stop the blight. Loghain tried to discourage him many times, but Cailan would hear none of it. He believed himself and his armies invincible with the Grey Wardens there.



It is entirely possible that Loghain knew that the war could not be won, and wanted to teach Cailan a lesson by showing him a terrible defeat at Ostagar, but when Cailan insisted he be on the front lines, Loghain did not want to sacrifice his own army in foolish pursuits of glory, and instead retreated, wanting to gather the rest of Ferelden's forces under his banner and fight the war his way.

[Thyrza]

ninjaDance wrote...

So what happened? While I was playing through the game, I honestly half-expected them to pull as 'he's possessed!' cliche, because that was the only light in which I felt his actions could be explained.

That's what I thought when my PC and Alistair were sent to light that flame in Lothering and found that the darkspawn had broken into the tower.  I thought Loghain had sold out the humans and sent the darkspawn himself.

It's odd that the game offers so little explanation for Loghain's motives.  In the end, I was left shrugging and thinking that he must just have gone mad. 

IMHO, one shouldn't *have* to read the books in order to have events or characters in the game make sense.

[The Capital Gaultier]

@celdoloth: That's simply not true, though. When you talk to Loghain, you learn that he did not think the Blight was as much a threat as the Wardens made it to be (that it wasn't a Blight at all, actually) and that there is a serious threat from Orlais. I've never heard mention of a protracted defensive war strategy from him concerning the darkspawn.

[DariusKalera]

My first play through, I honestly thought that that it was going to be revealed that Loghian had been possessed by a Pride demon, especially since, by the time of the Landsmeet, it was the only demon that we had not seen yet.



Also remember that it was not just Loghain who thought that this might not be a real Blight. Cailan and most of the rest of the country (barring the Grey Wardens of course) thought the same thing.

[Dark83]

Gaider has stated that the game was written first, then the books.

Further, while he did the writing, he's hardly responsible for the presentation. The script writer can't control how the director affects the script - and it can be a huge difference indeed.

Game Loghain and Book Loghain are obviously (from the many, many people mentioning their differences) different incarnations.

[druidofwarp]

Well bottom line Loghain abandoned his men and his king which is high treason and morally wrong. I mean wow he was set up perfectly in a flanking position on higher ground! Hell he even had Ser Cauthrien with him! If his reinforcements didnt drive back the darkspawn then that would mean the Archdemon would have appeared to save its Blight, worst case scenario they could just retreat behind the giant gate at Ostagar to buy them sometime to regroup.



Also dont compare Alistair's rage at Loghain for all the evil he has done to the fact that Loghain is clearly insane with distrust for Orlais and nearly burned Ferelden to the ground over his paranoia. When exactly in the game was Orlais ever a threat?

[PsychoBlonde]

Another thought occurred to me. In a conversaton with Wynne, Loghain states that he felt the loss of every man at the Battle of Ostagar.

Wow, talk about a nod to Watchmen, there.

I agree that book-Loghain and game-Loghain are simply different incarnations, and keep in mind that while Gaider was the LEAD writer, he was by no means the ONLY writer.

A lot of things in the game are just flat-out inconsistent, though.  Most of them are not so bad that you can't gloss over them, but total integration has simply not been achieved.  It's better than many games where it isn't even aimed at, though.

[DariusKalera]

druidofwarp wrote...

Well bottom line Loghain abandoned his men and his king which is high treason and morally wrong. I mean wow he was set up perfectly in a flanking position on higher ground! Hell he even had Ser Cauthrien with him! If his reinforcements didnt drive back the darkspawn then that would mean the Archdemon would have appeared to save its Blight, worst case scenario they could just retreat behind the giant gate at Ostagar to buy them sometime to regroup.

Also dont compare Alistair's rage at Loghain for all the evil he has done to the fact that Loghain is clearly insane with distrust for Orlais and nearly burned Ferelden to the ground over his paranoia. When exactly in the game was Orlais ever a threat?

Being behind the gate is not really a good place either since there are Darkspawn already inside of Ostagar.

Also, Orlais does not have to be shown as a threat in the game.  It is simply enough for Loghain that he believes that they are a threat.  

[druidofwarp]

DariusKalera wrote...

Also, Orlais does not have to be shown as a threat in the game.  It is simply enough for Loghain that he believes that they are a threat.  

Does not excuse his actions or even makes me able to empathize with him his beliefs are unsubstantiated.

[celdoloth]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Another thought occurred to me. In a conversaton with Wynne, Loghain states that he felt the loss of every man at the Battle of Ostagar.

Wow, talk about a nod to Watchmen, there.

I have to sadly admit that I am not sure to what you are refering.  Watchmen?

And in response to not knowing Loghain's strategy against the darkspawn, you are correct that he never directly states what he intended to do about the threat.  However, you gain from inferences in Ostagar that Loghain wanted to wait for more troops "More troops are expected to arrive tomorrow.  But the Teryhn's not sure it will be enough," and that he felt one glorious battle was insufficient and too risky a strategy and only employed the flanking plan after he could not convince Cailan otherwise.

What he would have done other than the flanking plan we see is not known, but we do know that Duncan wanted Cailan to wait for reinforcements, both from the rest of Ferelden and from Orlais, before attempting so large a battle.

[druidofwarp]

He only wants Redcliffe reinforcements and probably turns on Cailan for daring to invite the orlesians to the party

[Ariella]

celdoloth wrote...

To be honest, considering a few things, Loghain's actions make more sense.

First, we have to assume that he does not believe this is a true blight. The Archdemon was very intelligent in not revealing himself too soon. With no Archdemon to see, unlike the past 4 Blights where the Archdemon revealed itself rather soon, most people were suspecting (see wishful thinking), that this was not a Blight.

If this is not a true Blight, then it is not that great of a threat, and Orlais would be a greater threat.

Still doesn't make sense. Orlais' Empress has made peace, and as I said the Wardens would not allow themselves to be used in such a manner, no matter what Loghain things. Plus there's the fact that Maric TOLD Loghain that there would be a Blight. Loghain had known this since the Wardens had come back to Fereldan that a Blight was coming, but because the word came from Flemeth, Loghain didn't want to believe (epsecially due to her little prophecy that he'd betray Maric time and again, each time worse than the last....)

And there's absolutely no proof that Orlais was even considering anything of the kind. She hadn't stirred against Fereldan for about 20 years, relations were actually good, and if the army had defeated the darkspawn at Ostagar in the first place there'd have been no NEED for Orlais' Grey Wardens to come, so Loghain had no reason except his paranoia to act against the king at Ostagar.

However, consider this: Would you rather be a slave or die? Some would rather be a slave, but this very nation sacrificed many lives in order to secure freedom, and the rule of Britain was not nearly as oppressive as Orlais'.

If Loghain is convinced that Orlais was trying to regain control, he might have considered the Blight's threat, and determined that he would do anything, sacrifice anything, in order to prevent it. Even if that meant that Ferelden burned around him, he could rest easy in knowing that its people would not suffer what his parents did: his father watching his mother get raped and murdered.

Loghain's assumptions about the evil of Orlais are exaggerated, but in his mind, he did the only thing he could.

It doesn't make him anymore justified or correct. As I said, Loghain had no real proof that Orlais was going to attempt another invasion. He had exagerated paranoia based on his own fears of Orlais and his fear of Flemeth's prophecy. The fact that if this had just been a large darkspawn incursion that could have been finished at Ostagar like Calian planned (remember he too had doubts it was really a Blight and says so), the Wardens of Orlais and their support troops would not be needed. And if Orlais tried to invade under the pretext of "helping" after the incursion was routed, the Grey Wardens would pretty much have their credability destroyed, thus destroying any chance of routing the next Blight.

[celdoloth]

Well, playing Devil's advocate, here is Loghain's perspective:



Where you say, "There is no proof Orlais was planning another invasion." Loghain would say, "There is no proof that they aren't." Call it paranoid, but I don't think any of us can speak from the same perspective as he can. None of us grew up under a tyranny. Very few, if any, can say that we watched our mother get raped. See a farmer whipped to death for no reason by a Chevalier. And now 200 Chevalier's want in to the country? Hell no.

[The Capital Gaultier]

celdoloth wrote...

Well, playing Devil's advocate, here is Loghain's perspective:

Where you say, "There is no proof Orlais was planning another invasion." Loghain would say, "There is no proof that they aren't." Call it paranoid, but I don't think any of us can speak from the same perspective as he can. None of us grew up under a tyranny. Very few, if any, can say that we watched our mother get raped. See a farmer whipped to death for no reason by a Chevalier. And now 200 Chevalier's want in to the country? Hell no.

Paranoid delusions are still looked down on by most people as evil.

[celdoloth]

Paranoid delusions they may be, be not so quick to judge Loghain.



What I am saying is that, according to the facts that he had, he made the right choices. His fault was in exaggerating threats out of proportion, and not seeking the correct information.



And I still believe that Orlais would not hesitate to retake Ferelden for themselves, but I also agree that they probably would not have done so under the guise of the Wardens, or during a Blight.

[Lotion Soronarr]

celdoloth wrote...
First, we have to assume that he does not believe this is a true blight. The Archdemon was very intelligent in not revealing himself too soon. With no Archdemon to see, unlike the past 4 Blights where the Archdemon revealed itself rather soon, most people were suspecting (see wishful thinking), that this was not a Blight.

If this is not a true Blight, then it is not that great of a threat, and Orlais would be a greater threat.

And darkspawn have never gathered in such large numbers on the surface wihtout it being a Blight. Loghain apparently doens't learn fro mhistory well.

However, consider this: Would you rather be a slave or die? Some would rather be a slave, but this very nation sacrificed many lives in order to secure freedom, and the rule of Britain was not nearly as oppressive as Orlais'.

Becoming a ghoul is slavery. A slow, painfull death. And let's not even mention the Broodmothers. NOTHING any invading kingdom could do compares to the blight.

Remember what we have heard: both the Grey Wardens, and Loghain, believed that the darkspawn could not be defeated in one large battle. A large battle risked far too much. What the Grey Wardens and Loghain disagreed on was what to do about it. (Wardens wanted to wait for Orlesian reinforcements, Loghain wanted to just wait until all of Ferelden's armies were there and fight a defensive war.)

But King Cailan insisted that there be a glorious battle to destroy the darkspawn and stop the blight. Loghain tried to discourage him many times, but Cailan would hear none of it. He believed himself and his armies invincible with the Grey Wardens there.

It is entirely possible that Loghain knew that the war could not be won, and wanted to teach Cailan a lesson by showing him a terrible defeat at Ostagar, but when Cailan insisted he be on the front lines, Loghain did not want to sacrifice his own army in foolish pursuits of glory, and instead retreated, wanting to gather the rest of Ferelden's forces under his banner and fight the war his way.

Which would be extreemly foolish. whe nyou're fighting a defensive war, you're locked and don' have an advantage. You have towns and villages to defend that lock your troops.
More importantly, when you're holding a position you dont' dictate the time of battle. When the enemy comes you either fight or abandon the position. you cna't take it with you.

So with the darkspawn coming they could either abandon Ostagar or fight. Since Ostagar was a very defensible position that barred the way deeper into Ferelden, abandoning it would be foolish.
Loghain greatest mistake was letting Ostagar fall. By keeping it secure and reinforced with further troops, they could have contained hte spread of the blight...lor at least slowed it down, thus saving many, many lives and villages.

And if Loghian let Ostagar happen because he wanted to teahc Cailan a lesson, then he's an ever greater moron and deuchebag.

[Axterix]

Ariella wrote...

Still doesn't make sense. Orlais' Empress has made peace, and as I said the Wardens would not allow themselves to be used in such a manner, no matter what Loghain things. Plus there's the fact that Maric TOLD Loghain that there would be a Blight. Loghain had known this since the Wardens had come back to Fereldan that a Blight was coming, but because the word came from Flemeth, Loghain didn't want to believe (epsecially due to her little prophecy that he'd betray Maric time and again, each time worse than the last....)

Quite frankly, if Orlais wanted to stick around, the Wardens couldn't do much about it.  Not exactly their business to interfere once the Blight is gone.  And, while there might be a Blight, that doesn't mean that this is the Blight.  Many people believed this was a false Blight, Loghain amongst them.

And there's absolutely no proof that Orlais was even considering anything of the kind. She hadn't stirred against Fereldan for about 20 years, relations were actually good, and if the army had defeated the darkspawn at Ostagar in the first place there'd have been no NEED for Orlais' Grey Wardens to come, so Loghain had no reason except his paranoia to act against the king at Ostagar.

It doesn't change what happened 30 years ago though.  And there's a lot of people from that generation that aren't going to forgive Orlais.  The occupation was that brutal.  And what we can learn of the Orlesians in game shows that their Chevaliers still are not the people you want around.  Really, Cailan inviting the Orlesians in was a pretty stupid thing to do, given how many of his people felt.

And the army had already defeated the Darkspawn three times  After each defeat, the Darkspawn came back with greater numbers.  A fourth victory would not have been a guarenteed end of the Darkspawn.  A fifth battle though, might well have meant an end to the Ferelden army.  The problem though is that Cailan wanted his glory.  He didn't want to wait for more troops.  And the only reason he brought up waiting for the Orlesian troops is because he knows how Loghain feels about that.

It also depends a lot on what actually happened during that fourth battle.  We know the signal wasn't lit on time.  And when it was lit, Loghain ordered the retreat.  It is possible that by that point, the battle is lost, that it wasn't all preplanned.  But what really happened?  What was the actual state of the battle?  These things, we don't know.  The forthcoming DLC might shed some light on the matter.  But for now, all we know is darkspawn invaded the tower, and so the signal was not lit on time and, when it was lit, Loghain ordered a retreat.

Now, Howe's actions would seem to indicate that it was pre-planned, unless he had some other trick up his sleeve to insure he got away with wiping out the Couslands.  But knowing Howe, he might well have.  Some people would also the Aemon's poisoning indicates this as well, but a mage origin PC would have left the tower at about the same time as Jowan, traveling directly to the battle site.  Which would mean Jowan would have had to have been captured by Templars, brought to the army, and then used by Loghain, who conveniently had poisons around, all without getting advice from Howe.  Unlikely.  The poisoning of Aemon most likely happened after the battle, once Loghain got back to the capital and had to plan to deal with the fall out, the time during which the player was recuperating in Flemeth's hut.

But, yes, Loghain's paranoia is responsible for a large part of his actions.  That said, just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't after you.

It doesn't make him anymore justified or correct. As I said, Loghain had no real proof that Orlais was going to attempt another invasion. He had exagerated paranoia based on his own fears of Orlais and his fear of Flemeth's prophecy. The fact that if this had just been a large darkspawn incursion that could have been finished at Ostagar like Calian planned (remember he too had doubts it was really a Blight and says so), the Wardens of Orlais and their support troops would not be needed. And if Orlais tried to invade under the pretext of "helping" after the incursion was routed, the Grey Wardens would pretty much have their credability destroyed, thus destroying any chance of routing the next Blight.

We have as much proof of Orlais hostile intentions as we do that the Darkspawn threat could have been ended at Ostagar.  That being essentially zero. 

And the Grey Wardens are not a bunch of super policemen.  They do not have the forces or power to stop a powerful nation like Orlais from doing whatever it feels like.  They might not like it, it might upset them greatly, but there simply aren't that many wardens.

Anyway, I don't think you'll find anyone arguing that Loghain isn't paranoid.  But, if you look at it from his point of view, that Orlais really is a threat that must be kept out, that the Blight was a false Blight and he, military super star that he is, could deal with it, then his actions make sense.  It isn't he that betrayed the country, but Cailan.  And everything he did, while it might be amoral, was done for Ferelden's best interest.

[Dark83]

celdoloth wrote...

Paranoid delusions they may be, be not so quick to judge Loghain.

What I am saying is that, according to the facts that he had, he made the right choices. His fault was in exaggerating threats out of proportion, and not seeking the correct information.

And I still believe that Orlais would not hesitate to retake Ferelden for themselves, but I also agree that they probably would not have done so under the guise of the Wardens, or during a Blight.

Isn't this the same sort of thinking that leds to throwing every person with brown skin in prison? You have no proof they're not terrorists.

It's a completely erronous line of thought. Who is this "Orlais" entity? It's the same kind of thinking where "America" is the "Great Enemy". Really? "America" is attacking you? Half of America is busy arguing with the other half (2 party system, yay!).