105 réponses à ce sujet

[Ariella]

Mithrildream wrote...

Maric had a meeting with the Empress of Orlesians.. then some time later he's lost at sea (Loghans doing? who knows). Cailan allying with Orlesians.. is left to die. Loghain went bananas after Rowan dies, he went through a lot and it probably all caught up with him about then as he never had time to come to terms till then.

Got to admit, I have suspicions on how Maric "died".... In fact, I'm not sure he's actually dead, but living the last years of his life with Fiona in quiet obscurity.

[dirtywick]

Dark83 wrote...

The pony express functioned by a series of fresh horses, no? Which is conspicuously absent in Ferelden (haha). 300 miles/day is a nice figure to throw into this discussion, but totally irrelevant, given the distance from Ostagar to the border, unless you have instantaneous communication or the reinforcements were WAY far away, they would already be in Ferelden if the repel order was given after the king dies.
Wilds to Flemeth would be a few days. Upon return the ceremony proceeds immediately, you then go to the tower, Flemeth saves you, and you're out for a few days. The question is the mission to the wilds, but that can't be more than a day or two - since Eamon's reinforcements are supposed to be there within a week, and they don't arrive in time. So less than a week between your arrival and the king dies.

Yeah the Pony Express used a series of fresh horses, though there was some foot travel, especially through the mountains in heavy snow.  The point is the distance an army can move in a week is fathoms smaller than the distance a message, a lone messenger, or even a small group can move.  Given that, it's likely that if the Orlesians were directly on the border they wouldn't have met half way.

[Dark83]

Hmm. Well, regardless, given the timeline and distances, the only way for the Orlesians to not have already been in Ferelden is if Loghain already ordered them stopped. By the time a message from Ostagar sent immediately post-battle reached the border, they should already have been within, otherwise they would have been completely useless at Ostagar in the first place.

[robertthebard]

They would have had to have been stopped well prior to the battle. That they were stopped before Ostagar can be gleaned from your discussion with Riordan. They finally decided to send one guy across when they didn't get any news regarding events in Ostagar. So Loghain's betrayal runs far deeper than some might have imagined initially. Especially taking travel times into consideration.



As for Jowan, I can't see him being any good at much of anything independently, hence he was caught out in the tower for practicing Blood Magic. It's likely, although not confirmed anywhere that I'm aware of, that it was only a matter of days from the time he got away from the tower, to when he was cornered by the Templar, and subsequently hijacked to poison Eamon. However, that Eamon was poisoned before Ostagar, we do have as fact, and you learn that in Lothering.



In a previous discussion concerning Loghain and Cailin, somebody made the point that by appealing to Cailin's pride, Loghain could have forced him onto the field, or to stubbornly hold on to his idea of taking the field with the Wardens. More indepth dialog with Anora makes me wonder about that, but she does say that Cailin and Loghain had a tendency to bump heads, but that Cailin would usually bend to Loghain. I'd say that this was one time he should have bent, but it wouldn't have been a very good story if he had. I wouldn't rule this out out of hand, all things considered.



Also of note is that, unless he keeps to Loghain's tent, Howe doesn't show up in Ostagar, regardless of what origin you play. While this may indeed mean nothing, I suspect it's because he's busy cleaning up the mess at Highever.

[Vicious]

I definetly respect the posts here, but imho Loghain was completely undeveloped vs. the guy in the book. He may as well have been a moustache twirling villain in the game, until and unless you recruit him, and he does a COMPLETE 180.



ugh.

[Ulicus]

Lyrium induced paranoia, tis the only explanation!



I mean, it actually is kind of surprising that there isn't any "external" explanation when everyone -- even Eamon -- is like, "Wait, but Loghain's a cool guy! Why would he be doing this?"

[Dark83]

Loghain has good PR. Just look at the Alienage situation.

[Lughsan35]

The other stuff that happens (the slavery etc.) just doesn't seem to be

logical. Why would someone who hates Orlais allow them to set up a

slaving operation in the city? Even if they were taking only elves it's

just strange as hell. Not to mention the stuff that Loghain allowed Howe

to do is the very type of cruelty he hated about Orlais.

Please try to pay attention the slaving operation is from the Tevinter Imperium...

[dirtywick]

Dark83 wrote...

Hmm. Well, regardless, given the timeline and distances, the only way for the Orlesians to not have already been in Ferelden is if Loghain already ordered them stopped. By the time a message from Ostagar sent immediately post-battle reached the border, they should already have been within, otherwise they would have been completely useless at Ostagar in the first place.

I'm sure they were and that Cailan only said that to goad Loghain.  But I don't think that was meant to be Cailan's final battle at Ostagar either.

I think the most likely scenario is a lot of the things they were discussing was "old news" that they had been rehashing over quite a while.  Loghain likely had a lot of his contingencies in place as a backup plan (especially Jowan, getting close enough to poison the Arl would take some time), the primary being hoping Cailan would take his advice.  As soon as it was apparent it wasn't, then things were set in motion.  This could have been on or before the PC's arrival, or anytime thereafter.

Additionally, what about the Tower of Ishal?  Wasn't that held by Loghain troops?  I think his plan would have been better had the beacon never been lit; the signal was never given so he has no blame in his withdrawl.  Everyone seemed quite surprised that the tower was overrun and wondering why the darkspawn got there ahead of the horde, maybe Loghain was even more surprised it was lit at all.

[Whailor]

Loghain's treachery started already before Ostagar. For example, Howe attacked Couslands and obviously he would have done it only if he had some serious back up. He wouldn't just go there, attack Highever castle and then later say.. Well, whatever he would say. He obviously already had a "blessing" from Loghain, who already planned to deal with Cailan and Grey Wardens probably too. Howe was a bastard but he was no fool and of course he did consider that someone might get away from his Highever massacre and report it to the king but obviously he wasn't worried about it, because he also knew that the king will be dealt with. There are several events in the game which hint that Loghain planned to kill Cailan at Ostagar one way or another for a while and that he was in cahoots with Howe. And had planned to deal with Arl Eamon as well (taking Jowan away from templars, throwing said templars into the dungeon, etc).



Don't know who or what he was in the book but in the game he deserved the death I delivered to him. I believe that at some point he already realized himself how low he has sunk and that there's no way out, you can sort of see it in his expression and reactions when Howe introduces Zevran to him. He may have been a hero but his hatred against Orlais and orlesian wardens, whom he saw as "invading forces of Orlesian empire" drove him to utter paranoia.

[Xandurpein]

Don't forget that one of the best ways to find out more about who Loghain really is to ask Anora about him. She is one of those who knows him best. The opposite is also true by the way, you can learn a lot about Anora from Loghain.

What really comes across from talking to Anora about Loghain is that he is at heart a relatively honorable man, but he is also very proud and ha an obsessive streak. Sometimes this obsessiveness can be romantic, like the story of how he brings his wife the flower, but the same obsessivness can make him blind to his own actions and lead him to do very evil acts.

This is really the only way to explain his actions in my opinion. His obsessiveness makes him blind to the evil he does, in the name of what he percieves as necessary. When the player defeats him, it (granted in an overly simplified manner) knocks him off his feet and opens his eyes to what he actually has done.

Modifié par Xandurpein, 18 décembre 2009 - 01:23 .

[fanman72]

Someone mentioned in another thread - Read pages 261 - 263 of the Stolen Throne. I think that explains a lot of his actions even it meant abandoning his best friend's son. In the book, Maric got upset at Loghain and Rowan for saving him at West Hill because they could had made a difference at a battle the Fereldans lost. Maric explicitly mentioned that next time, not to save him and do what's in Fereldan's best interest - not Maric or Loghain's. I believe along with the paranoia from Orlesians, not believing the blight is a significant threat, not trusting the Grey Wardens after what happened in The Calling, and that Cailen's cowboy tactics were somewhat stupid he thought it was saving as many troops as he can was probably best for Fereldan instead of fighting a battle that would have been lost and would have given the Orlesians a possibility to attack Fereldan again.


The one thing I don't understand is this:

I read the books after going through the game.  Loghain in DA personality wise struck me very differently than how he was in the book.  Loghain was very political and manipulative in his explanations during the cutscenes in DA, like a politician finding bull**** justifications for his actions.  I didn't know he was capable of that, and in the book he struck me as far more honest than he was in DA.

Modifié par fanman72, 18 décembre 2009 - 03:00 .

[kevinwastaken]

Lughsan35 wrote...

Please try to pay attention the slaving operation is from the Tevinter Imperium...

They are given dispensation by Loghain. You need to pay attention or have you even played the game that far?

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ulicus wrote...
Please reconcile what you're saying with Loghain's frequently expressed desire to keep Cailan away from the front lines and out of danger.  If he wanted to kill Cailan, why wasn't he pushing him out of the door? "

"Yes Cailan, go off and join the Grey Wardens at the front, I'll be right behind you. Mwahhahahaa. Everything is going as I have foreseen."

You're mistaking Loghain being willing to let Cailan die with Loghain wanting Cailan to die. Loghain didn't even want to fight the battle ("we need more men"). The King forced the issue when he made it a choice between fighting the battle then and there or allowing the Orlesians into Ferelden.

He fled the field because, regardless of whether he was right or not, he genuinely believed the battle to be unwinnable by that point and he was sticking to a promise Maric extracted from him thirty years previously. Was it a massive mistake? Yeah, I think so.

Was it done out of an actual desire to see Cailan dead? No way.

Wrong.

As I said before, the battle was very much winnable. Talk to the officers in camp, and htey will say they expect a DECISIVE victory EVEN IF OUTNUMBERED.

Secondly, Loghain didn't run cause he "saw" hte battle was uniwinable, because he wasn't in a position to see the bttle in the first place - he was with his troups, behind a hill, waiting for hte signal. If he could see hte battle, then the signa would not be necessary.

And thirdly, you can oftne say the opposite of what you want, simply becasue you know the other person well enough that you know he won't listen.

With that said, I personally dont' think he wanted Cailan dead INITIALLY, but he said "what the hell" and decided he must die...together with a large portion of the army he was willing t osacrifice.

[robertthebard]

kevinwastaken wrote...

Lughsan35 wrote...

Please try to pay attention the slaving operation is from the Tevinter Imperium...

They are given dispensation by Loghain. You need to pay attention or have you even played the game that far?

The point to what you quoted was that the person it was directed to said they were from Orlais.  Orlais != Tevinter Imperium.  Can you really see Loghain allowing Orlesian slavers to operate in Ferelden?  So it behooves one to pay attention, instead of just jumping at the first chance to troll.

Modifié par robertthebard, 18 décembre 2009 - 03:28 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dark83 wrote...
We have some information. Cailan says "we could wait for them" which implies they're not that far off, and Duncan tells you that the Orlesian wardens are on the way.

That's a big assumption on your part.

Waiting for a month was nothing in a medievalwar campaign.

[Dark83]

fanman72 wrote...

Someone mentioned in another thread - Read pages 261 - 263 of the Stolen Throne. I think that explains a lot of his actions even it meant abandoning his best friend's son. In the book, Maric got upset at Loghain and Rowan for saving him at West Hill because they could had made a difference at a battle the Fereldans lost. Maric explicitly mentioned that next time, not to save him and do what's in Fereldan's best interest - not Maric or Loghain's. I believe along with the paranoia from Orlesians, not believing the blight is a significant threat, not trusting the Grey Wardens after what happened in The Calling, and that Cailen's cowboy tactics were somewhat stupid he thought it was saving as many troops as he can was probably best for Fereldan instead of fighting a battle that would have been lost and would have given the Orlesians a possibility to attack Fereldan again.


The one thing I don't understand is this:

I read the books after going through the game.  Loghain in DA personality wise struck me very differently than how he was in the book.  Loghain was very political and manipulative in his explanations during the cutscenes in DA, like a politician finding bull**** justifications for his actions.  I didn't know he was capable of that, and in the book he struck me as far more honest than he was in DA.

That's because they're entirely different people.
Game Incarnation is not Book Incarnation.
The writer may have written the game, then the novels, but he doesn't control the presentation (and thus characterization) of Loghain in the game - which chiefly involves the voicing, animation, and interactions.

[Vicious]

I'm totally down for some elf slaves.



I'd love to live in the Tevinter Imperium. Apparently they also do human sacrifice over there too. Byzantine/Aztecish stuff.



Gotta go there and extend my life through the sacrifice of as many elf slaves as possible!

[Ulicus]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Wrong.

As I said before, the battle was very much winnable. Talk to the officers in camp, and htey will say they expect a DECISIVE victory EVEN IF OUTNUMBERED.

What someone expects =/= what necessarily happens. Besides, they're all going off the previous battles and all Loghain has to say on the matter is that it's a stupid idea and they need more men.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Secondly, Loghain didn't run cause he "saw" hte battle was uniwinable, because he wasn't in a position to see the bttle in the first place - he was with his troups, behind a hill, waiting for hte signal. If he could see hte battle, then the signa would not be necessary.

I don't mean "see" in that sense, I meant prior to it even taking place, he - based on his information - "saw it to be unwinnable" ("we need more men!") and tried to convince Cailan to give it up. When Cailan was like, "well, Orlais' help it is then", Loghain was then willing to let Cailan (and those with him) die to ensure that didn't happen.

Though, to be honest, I've got to admit that I overlooked the whole "over the hill" thing -- which was pretty stupid of me.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And thirdly, you can oftne say the opposite of what you want, simply becasue you know the other person well enough that you know he won't listen.

Yeah, that still isn't remotely convincing to me. It's possible, though.

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
With that said, I personally dont' think he wanted Cailan dead INITIALLY, but he said "what the hell" and decided he must die...together with a large portion of the army he was willing t osacrifice.

I don't think it was quite so simple, really. Especially listening to his party-banter.... but, in broad strokes, sure.

[robertthebard]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dark83 wrote...
We have some information. Cailan says "we could wait for them" which implies they're not that far off, and Duncan tells you that the Orlesian wardens are on the way.

That's a big assumption on your part.

Waiting for a month was nothing in a medievalwar campaign.

Except that he doesn't know they aren't coming, and Loghain does.  This isn't an assumption, we have it on good faith that Loghain had turned the Orlesians back before the battle of Ostagar.  What we don't know, is how long before the actual battle this conversation takes place.  Is it the day before, or a week before.  If you claim a day, where is the proof of that?

For all I know, it's all on the afternoon before the battle for the strategy meeting, and the morning of the battle, or evening, which ever it is, when you talk to Duncan with Alistair.  However, the fallacy in this is that the Orlesians are already invited by Cailin, and turned back by Loghain.  Perhaps they should have already arrived?  Logical to assume that they may have been delayed a day or two at most, and that Cailin is using that as his timeframe.  The other problem is, of course, that in a defensive battle, you can't make the enemy wait until your allies arrive.  They fight when they get there.

[Dark83]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Dark83 wrote...
We have some information. Cailan says "we could wait for them" which implies they're not that far off, and Duncan tells you that the Orlesian wardens are on the way.

That's a big assumption on your part.

Waiting for a month was nothing in a medievalwar campaign.

Right, because they clearly had a month to  wait for reinforcements to arrive. In any case, I did a quick search via Google over historical campaigns, and I haven't come accross any indication anywhere where a month was an acceptable amount of time to delay. Perhaps you have sources, or were you just making a big assumption about historical warfare?

I don't know if it was this thread or the other that mentioned the Pony Express, but it has come to my attention that on the scale of armies, calvary and infantry marched at the same speed (and no, I don't mean if they're in the same army). Historically, armies moved at about 20 miles per day (30 with proper logistics, 10 without) - so in one month an army would be able to go about 600 miles. That's the length of England, or twice the width. The distance from London to Jerusalem is 2246 miles - less than 4 months travel.

I think you have a distorted view of history. If we consider the Battle of Agincourt that took place on October 25th 1415, with France trying to delay while reinforcements arrived, or any other historical battle where defenders were waiting for reinforcements, I think you'd see a month is far too long for reinforcements to arrive. I could be wrong though, and would look forward to reading links discussing otherwise.

[Dark83]

Ulicus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And thirdly, you can oftne say the opposite of what you want, simply becasue you know the other person well enough that you know he won't listen.

Yeah, that still isn't remotely convincing to me. It's possible, though.

...you're telling me you can't predict with decent accuracy the reactions of friends you've grown up with? Heck, if you give me a scenario, I can predict with at least 90% accuracy what the friends I've known since high school would do. (In fact, as it is the holidays, this has just been put into practice with regards to organizing events and gatherings.)

[Herr Uhl]

Dark83 wrote...

I don't know if it was this thread or the other that mentioned the Pony Express, but it has come to my attention that on the scale of armies, calvary and infantry marched at the same speed (and no, I don't mean if they're in the same army). Historically, armies moved at about 20 miles per day (30 with proper logistics, 10 without) - so in one month an army would be able to go about 600 miles. That's the length of England, or twice the width. The distance from London to Jerusalem is 2246 miles - less than 4 months travel.

Considering that Ferelden is supposed to be roughly the size of France, 600 miles should be roughly accurate.

Edit: when considering Orlesian troops.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 18 décembre 2009 - 04:03 .

[Ulicus]

Dark83 wrote...

Ulicus wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And thirdly, you can oftne say the opposite of what you want, simply becasue you know the other person well enough that you know he won't listen.

Yeah, that still isn't remotely convincing to me. It's possible, though.

...you're telling me you can't predict with decent accuracy the reactions of friends you've grown up with? Heck, if you give me a scenario, I can predict with at least 90% accuracy what the friends I've known since high school would do. (In fact, as it is the holidays, this has just been put into practice with regards to organizing events and gatherings.)

Eh? I think it's unconvincing more because it's only recently that Cailan has stopped doing everything Loghain tells him. Every other time they've done this, Cailan has eventually said: "Yeah, you're right, lets do things your way."

Modifié par Ulicus, 18 décembre 2009 - 04:05 .

[robertthebard]

I pointed that out earlier. It was a terrible time to throw out the "You will remember who is King" thing.