162 réponses à ce sujet

[Piecake]

MerinTB wrote...

Well, he did originally paraphrase it into - "The money is on consoles, we're going after the money, were not wasting funds on textures for the isometric camera" ?

So, yeah, I think he's mostly accurate - cynical and snarky, but mostly accurate.

To me, I'd characterize it as intentionally misleading and putting the worst possible 'spin' on it, while leaving out crucial information, i.e. the budgetary issues. 

I have an issue with that since I think the way things are said are just as important as what you say.  Of course, this is probably the reason why I cant watch any cable news for more than 10 minutes before I want to stick my foot in the TV.

Well, whatever, this is off-topic so Ill stop now

[0x30A88]

Pugnate wrote...



The omission of the isometric camera is a massive loss. The
game sold 3.5 million copies, so I don't buy the "we didn't have the
budget". I will really miss the isometric camera, because it gave the game
a very tactical perspective. And yes, it wasn't a true isometric view, but it
was pretty good. One thing is for sure, had the game sold better on PC, we
wouldn't have lost the isometric cam.  

If they had the funds to do it for the first title, I can't
accept that they simply ran out of funds for the sequel. I can accept that they
chose to direct those funds elsewhere with their newly found console focus for
the franchise, but to say that they simply didn't have the budget is bull****.
As a former games journalist, I can smell PR spin, even when it smells this
good.

When I am playing in third person, I get to see a lot of art
that I wouldn't have noticed otherwise. And I do understand that a lot of extra
work is needed artistically when designing the game to be played in an isometric
view as well. But I love how this realization came to them after they started
working on Dragon Age 2.

I recently started playing Dragon Age: Awakening for the
first time. Strangely, all the negative press regarding the PC version of DA2
got me in the mood for more Dragon Age. Anyway, it isn't as bad as I had initially
summarized, though is obviously made on a tighter budget.

I have tried to play it from the third person perspective to
better prepare myself for Dragon Age 2, but I just can't. It feels very
limiting, and at times a handicap, because the camera doesn't behave very well
at all times unless it is completely zoomed out.

BTW, I am really getting sick of the forum rats. In the
words of Shawn Elliot, it is surprising to find bootlickers still exist in
gaming culture, but here we are. Some of the staunchest defenders against every
negatively received change by the general PC gaming public exist here, posting
day in, day out. It is actually a little disturbing, because this is a single
game's forum, and not a general gaming forum, yet forum stats reveal that some
of these fanboys spend over 12 hours a day here, defending against or
ridiculing any piece of negativity posted by anyone with concerns. It leads me
to believe that they are either Bioware employees -- I am just joking about
this part, but do a search on Google for a character called "Rollo",
and NVIDIA some time --, or slightly ill mentally.

edit:

Sorry, hope I didn't offend anyone with my little rant at the end. Shouldn't come online in a bad mood. <3

You forgot time, many of the devs work hard to do as much as possible to get the game out by the release date. Though I don't see why they are not going to make lo-fi textures, for it is a waste of gfx-card juice to have it render hi-res textures at a 20 m distance.

I liked to use it to get a better perspective on where to put that AOE circle or something and not have it locked on a party-member that's in the way.

Don't let consoles limit the PC version, it will only end in tears and even if you sell on the fans of DA:O, who will buy a future titles in the DA franchise if this one is met by dissapointment?

Modifié par Gisle Aune, 07 décembre 2010 - 07:57 .

[Ziggeh]

Piecake wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

I'm glad you agree that "see-through" is crucial.

See-through would be better than nothing in case of fixed camera, although it has the disadvantage of eliminating the LoS concept. With free roam in Origins, mobs out of your sight were still hidden even though the room layout was explored automatically. If see-through worked that way, well...better than nothing, as I said.

Well, closed doors could work as a barrier to the see-through walls.  You'd have to open the door to make it possible.  Plus, his suggestion was to not have constant "see-through" walls, but have that ability tied to a button, so you'd have the choice to use it or not (like taking your x-ray specs on and off!).  It would be a nice feature to have, and would alleviate my annoying example situation back on page 2. 

But yea, definitely the least desirable option of the options we've thought of. 

I believe Origins did it to an extent, showing you the red circles at least. It'd have it's problems, spell placement, as Flamin' mentioned, and the Arkham Asylum problem were it's information you always want.

I wasn't really suggesting it as something they should do, I just felt my statement deserved the caveat that what I'm (and I assume we're) asking for is not exactly the iso camera, but the absence of the problems that the iso camera resolves.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 07 décembre 2010 - 07:59 .

[-Semper-]

outlaworacle wrote...

You're misunderstanding the concept. To use Origins examples, if you are zoomed all the way in and your party is spread out, let's say you are controlling your Warden and Leliana is way on the far end of the screen. Looking at Leliana, you are seeing the same textures you would if you were controlling Leliana and the camera was right on her. When you zoom all the way out into the tactical/pseudo-iso camera, those are different textures.

that's technically nonsense... the texture is controlled through mipmapping and the texture size in general. if you load up da:o in high settings your texture will be in close up 1024x1024 and goes down in mapping to 512x512, 256x256 and so on. the med settings are 512x512, 256x256, 128x128 bla bla bla.

there is no different texture package for a zoomed out iso cam loaded, just normal mipmapping which controls the lod levels of a texture. it's the same with meshes.

first they came up with: there could be a iso cam for pc. later they stated that it's not possible due to textures. now it's the incredible roof props they made... it's just because the consoles can't handle iso cam and they don't want to script another fighting mode for pc.

also a big factor is that their new area concept (or the prize for more polygon packed character models) is lacking in detail props to break up views. now if look up the area textures in da:o they are very repetitive and boring. so if you would switch to a iso view without detail props you will just see a big flat and boring as hell texture which wouldn't fit to the uberdubersuperhot grafix the doctors spoke about so you have to break the view with tall buildings and characters in contrast to the horizon.

Modifié par -Semper-, 07 décembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[FedericoV]

-Semper- wrote...

first they came up with: there could be a iso cam for pc. later they stated that it's not possible due to textures. now it's the incredible roof props they made... it's just because the consoles can't handle iso cam and they don't want to script another fighting mode for pc.

Semper, can i ask you a technical question? You say that consolle can't handle iso cam. Even if the game has developed with a fixed iso view and without rotable camera? I mean, the problem is iso view or the rotable camera?

Modifié par FedericoV, 07 décembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[Bullets McDeath]

-Semper- wrote...

outlaworacle wrote...

You're misunderstanding the concept. To use Origins examples, if you are zoomed all the way in and your party is spread out, let's say you are controlling your Warden and Leliana is way on the far end of the screen. Looking at Leliana, you are seeing the same textures you would if you were controlling Leliana and the camera was right on her. When you zoom all the way out into the tactical/pseudo-iso camera, those are different textures.

that's technically nonsense... the texture is controlled through mipmapping and the texture size in general. if you load up da:o in high settings your texture will be in close up 1024x1024 and goes down in mapping to 512x512, 256x256 and so on. the med settings are 512x512, 256x256, 128x128 bla bla bla.

there is no different texture package for a zoomed out iso cam loaded, just normal mipmapping which controls the lod levels of a texture. it's the same with meshes.

first they came up with: there could be a iso cam for pc. later they stated that it's not possible due to textures. now it's the incredible roof props they made... it's just because the consoles can't handle iso cam and they don't want to script another fighting mode for pc.

also a big factor is that their new area concept (or the prize for more polygon packed character models) is lacking in detail props to break up views. now if look up the area textures in da:o they are very repetitive and boring. so if you would switch to a iso view without detail props you will just see a big flat and boring as hell texture which wouldn't fit to the uberdubersuperhot grafix the doctors spoke about

el oh el, I guess I should've gotten a receipt with this animation degree. Too late now. Whatever, this thread is bonkers, like most of the board these days. I surrender.

[Unknown Username]

Haven't read the whole thread, I'm just going to respond that I'm saddened that the camera is now locked to the currently controlled character. I really enjoyed being able to move about the battlefield and am somewhat confused as to the reasons for this change. Hopefully they've figured out a way to get around the issues that could arise.

[In Exile]

MerinTB wrote...
Well, he did originally paraphrase it into - "The money is on consoles, we're going after the money, were not wasting funds on textures for the isometric camera" ?

So, yeah, I think he's mostly accurate - cynical and snarky, but mostly accurate.

I don't think it is, because it misses the issue the original quote brings up, and that's justifiable expense. There is a difference between "We're doing [x] because we want bigger profits," and "We're doing [x] because otherwise the cost will prevent us from breaking even,"

The quote suggests that the focus is on the console because the features that will make/break sales will be on the console and not on the PC, thus it makes more sense to invest the fixed budget there.

[Ortaya Alevli]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

I believe Origins did it to an extent, showing you the red circles at least. It'd have it's problems, spell placement, as Flamin' mentioned, and the Arkham Asylum problem were it's information you always want.

I wasn't really suggesting it as something they should do, I just felt my statement deserved the caveat that what I'm (and I assume we're) asking for is not exactly the iso camera, but the absence of the problems that the iso camera resolves.

Yeah, there's still the matter of AoE placement. Creating a Storm of the Century in third-person view without causing a total party wipe, for example, is a pain in the neck. In theory, it's doable, but I would have to spend a long time placing the spell layers in third-person while it takes a split second of my time in free roam. Tedious is what kills a game.

See-through solves a lot of problems in many areas, though. Ahem.

[In Exile]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
Yeah, there's still the matter of AoE placement. Creating a Storm of the Century in third-person view without causing a total party wipe, for example, is a pain in the neck. In theory, it's doable, but I would have to spend a long time placing the spell layers in third-person while it takes a split second of my time in free roam. Tedious is what kills a game.

See-through solves a lot of problems in many areas, though. Ahem.

Doing it in isometric without causing a total party wipe is hard because the AoE cone actually lies to you. That's a problem with the fact the AoE jumps.

[Ortaya Alevli]

In Exile wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
Yeah, there's still the matter of AoE placement. Creating a Storm of the Century in third-person view without causing a total party wipe, for example, is a pain in the neck. In theory, it's doable, but I would have to spend a long time placing the spell layers in third-person while it takes a split second of my time in free roam. Tedious is what kills a game.

See-through solves a lot of problems in many areas, though. Ahem.

Doing it in isometric without causing a total party wipe is hard because the AoE cone actually lies to you. That's a problem with the fact the AoE jumps.

It becomes more intuitive as you keep casting. For instance, cast it right near the edge of caster's range (i.e. as far as possible before the marker turns grayish). Way easier with isometric/free panning.

[tmp7704]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Yeah, there's still the matter of AoE placement. Creating a Storm of the Century in third-person view without causing a total party wipe, for example, is a pain in the neck. In theory, it's doable, but I would have to spend a long time placing the spell layers in third-person while it takes a split second of my time in free roam. Tedious is what kills a game.

In the leaked video it would appear that the camera becomes decoupled from the caster when you place the AoE spells and instead centers on the target point -- it wasn't placed very high, but it'd give good view of the area at which the spell was being aimed.

[MIke_18]

I think that friendly fire from DA II is removed completely, so no worries about casting AOE spells.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

MIke_18 wrote...

I think that friendly fire from DA II is removed completely, so no worries about casting AOE spells.

FF only works on Nightmare now. Hense why I'll be forced to play at that difficulty level. Just another notch in the questionable design decisions that have been made on DA II.

[Marzillius]

Didn't the isometric camera get revamped-ish? Everytime you use an AoE spell, the camera will go isometric so you can aim easier. After the spell has been cast, the camera will revert back to normal.

[Ortaya Alevli]

tmp7704 wrote...

In the leaked video it would appear that the camera becomes decoupled from the caster when you place the AoE spells and instead centers on the target point -- it wasn't placed very high, but it'd give good view of the area at which the spell was being aimed.

At least I hope that feature makes it to the final release; I never held my hopes up for isometric and detached camera anyway.

But still, battles such as the assassination attempt at Leliana will play out much differently without free roam.

[Brockololly]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
Yeah, there's still the matter of AoE placement.

Well considering friendly fire is only going to be on Nightmare (or at least it was last I heard) that kind of enables you to less accurately place spells since you don't have to worry about your party getting killed.
Edit:  Ninja'd:ph34r:

Marzillius wrote...

Didn't the isometric camera get
revamped-ish? Everytime you use an AoE spell, the camera will go
isometric so you can aim easier. After the spell has been cast, the
camera will revert back to normal.

Well in the bootleg videos thats the console version, so who knows if that seemingly auto pause to place the AOE is in the PC version. ANd still, it looked like a moderately zoomed out view like what you could do in Origins already- and in my view doesn't help that much with placing an AOE as you're still looking at it from an awkward  angle.

Modifié par Brockololly, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:08 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Brockololly wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
Yeah, there's still the matter of AoE placement.

Well considering friendly fire is only going to be on Nightmare (or at least it was last I heard) that kind of enables you to less accurately place spells since you don't have to worry about your party getting killed.

It's less about being worried about staying alive and more about doing what you enjoy, to be honest. Otherwise one can very well go through Origins without casting a single spell, if that's the concern.

[Ortaya Alevli]

filaminstrel wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

See-through solves a lot of problems in many areas, though. Ahem.

Honest question: what problems?

Explaining a joke is a perfect way to ruin it, you know.

[ErichHartmann]

Friendly fire should be a toggle for all difficulty levels. I hope BioWare makes it so by release. /ninja post

[Piecake]

filaminstrel wrote...

Honest question: what problems?

Though the idea of AoE spells getting their own iso view is somewhat encouraging, like Brock said, that was console gameplay, so I hesitate to be hopeful about it.

Well, it would solve this particular possible issue for me

Say one of your companions is in a room and spots an enemy while you are outside and cant see him or the enemy.  If I switch from my companion to myself and then cant see/attack the enemy right away that will positively annoy me.  I would have to move him to the door, wait for him to walk over, and then order him to attack.  I'd just like to skip that whole process and have him attack the mob immediately since one of my characters can already see him

Modifié par Piecake, 07 décembre 2010 - 09:22 .

[Piecake]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Friendly fire should be a toggle for all difficulty levels. I hope BioWare makes it so by release. /ninja post

I think that should be the motto for the board

"When in doubt, toggle"

[Ortaya Alevli]

filaminstrel wrote...

Oh, I see... thought we were still talking about walls.

Yep, I'm flawed like that. Can't remain serious for long periods.