123 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Seagloom wrote...
That said, I did think not having a chance to rescue Shandra was a bit lame. I knew it was done for drama's sake, but still...

I addressed that particular plot point in the OC Makeover SoZ Edition. I did not consider entirely rewriting the ending, although now that I think about it it might be possible. The lame narration would have to be dropped - no great loss there -, the travel scripts would have to be modified to prevent traveling to areas on the world map that are left in a state of disarray, and an SoZ like "Retire" feature would need to be added to the player menu with appropriate verbiage. I'll give it some more thought though. It could open up some interesting opportunities for additional questing in some of the OC areas. Have to finish up the MotB Override and King's Festival+Queen's Harvest first though.

Regards

[ottery]

Seagloom wrote...

Keep in mind that after the King of Shadows falls his entire abode is collapsing around you. That and gargoyles haul off your character. Raising everyone is probably not a viable option, if indeed anyone is even dead when your character is dragged off. Judging by the fact KC is unaware of what specifically transpires, she must be taken before anyone is endangered. That said, I did think not having a chance to rescue Shandra was a bit lame. I knew it was done for drama's sake, but still...

One reason I'm glad that Bioware/Obsidian have moved away from the Realms. The place is an almost impossible setting for a human-scale story. It's not surprising  to me that writing-wise, the two most praised DnD games (P:T and MotB) were somehow tied to the planescape and to souls - if you're going to write about a world where death is almost meaningless, you've got to confront that to have a story that still works.  

But I like human stories, which is probably why I preferred the big clunky flawed OC to the epic characters and epic mysticism of MotB. 

[Seagloom]

I think it has less to do with the Realms than BioWare and Obsidian's design choices. There are several low key locations in the Realms where a human story could work. The problem is most games are set in the most populous areas of the Western Heartlands and Savage North where a concentration of high magic stuff exists. Also, level has a lot to do with it. Baldur's Gate told what I thought was an epic story without getting insanely out of hand. BG2 and NWN2 have such a high level cap that your party is drop kicking demon lords by the end.



There are better settings for those kinds of stories though. It is too bad the only recent Greyhawk and Eberron RPGs were not so great.

[Zaxares]

Actually, a fair number of the OC's party DO survive the trite "rocks fall" ending. Be warned though, some of the following information contains MotB spoilers.



1. Khelgar always survives.

2. Neeshka always survives, if she did not betray the KC.

3. Ammon Jerro always survives.

4. Zhjaeve vanishes, but considering that all high-level Githzerai have the Plane Shift power, it's likely that she simply Plane Shifted back to Limbo once things got dire, and so likely survived.

5. Sand could conceivably survive, based on what Ammon tells you in MotB. Sand could have simply shapeshifted or polymorphed into a form that was immune to crushing and so escaped that way.

6. Ammon says that Elanee was knocked flat by a rock, and could be unconscious or dead. If she was not slain, however, she could also have escaped easily by wild shaping into an Earth Elemental and simply using its Earth Glide ability to travel through the rock and stone around it.

7. Grobnar and the Construct are likely dead, unfortunately.

8. Qara is likely dead, either at the hands of the KC or killed by the falling rocks. Seeing as how she automatically picks offensive spells when you level her up, it's likely she has no magic such as teleportation which could save her from that situation.

9. Casavir is likely dead, based on what Ammon tells you in MotB. HOWEVER, in Storm of Zehir, the Luskan Captain in Port Llast tells you that his men found a paladin in the Mere of Dead Men, badly injured and left for dead, who was subsequently captured and brought to Luskan. Could this be Casavir? It's a stretch, but what other paladin would be there at that time?

10. Bishop always dies, either at your hand or when the fortress collapses, based on your meeting him in the Wall of the Faithless in MotB.

[Myounage]

Same as Neeshka. Doesn't officially exist or have any real conclusion apart from "i backstab u huehuehuehe." isn't referenced in motb, all that jazz.

[metatheurgist]

* SoZ Spoilers*

















It's implied in SoZ that the Luskans fished a certain Paladin out of the ruins of Merdelain, so apparently it wasn't too difficult for the bad guys to remove the rubble and recover the bodies - just too hard for Nasher and the Nine. The Paladin was alive so you can convince an Evil god to raise a good paladin for interrogation purposes - apparently - and said Paladin was also dumb enough to anaswer the call of the spell despite knowing it would leave him in enemy hands. *shrug*

[ottery]

metatheurgist wrote...

* SoZ Spoilers*








It's implied in SoZ that the Luskans fished a certain Paladin out of the ruins of Merdelain, so apparently it wasn't too difficult for the bad guys to remove the rubble and recover the bodies - just too hard for Nasher and the Nine. The Paladin was alive so you can convince an Evil god to raise a good paladin for interrogation purposes - apparently - and said Paladin was also dumb enough to anaswer the call of the spell despite knowing it would leave him in enemy hands. *shrug*

Zaxares has already said as much - and, because I rejoice in precision, SoZ suggests that Casavir was found injured, not dead. The Luskans didn't need to raise him. Makes sense, even though it probably is a retcon, since I doubt any of the companions - especially not Ammon, who was busy pursuing the gargoyles - would have stopped to check his pulse. 

I assume that the screams of fangirl rage  after MotB reached the ears of a sympathetic Obsidian dev (Annie Carlson, maybe?) 

Modifié par ottery, 30 décembre 2010 - 12:40 .

[Seagloom]

While I do consider SoZ legitimate since it is an officially licensed Obsidian and Atari product, I always found those story elements a bit contrived. Am I the only one that finds it a little lame almost everyone that seemingly died at the original campaign's conclusion is rumored to be alive with barely any reason given? Again, I acknowledge it as part of the game's canon, but since SoZ was made by a smaller and very different team than NWN and MotB, those elements felt forced.

[Cat Lance]

Sarielle wrote...

Finally had a female PC that ended up buddying up with Bishop this playthrough. I have heard a lot in passing about the romance being "unfinished" and all, I've seen a mod referenced that "completes" the romance or somesuch and I just have to scratch my head.

It ended exactly as it should have. The only way I could have seen it end, if they kept him true to character. I say this even more having had enough rep to hear his whole story at the end.

Is it just because it isn't happy? Because the closest he gets to "I care" is "I don't hate you?" (lol).

Serious question. It felt plenty finished to me...was actually kind of refreshing that a sexual interlude in the forest was about the most a character in a game like this had to offer long-term.

OMG THANK YOU, I looooved the Bishop romance, precisely how it was!!

[ottery]

Seagloom wrote...

While I do consider SoZ legitimate since it is an officially licensed Obsidian and Atari product, I always found those story elements a bit contrived. Am I the only one that finds it a little lame almost everyone that seemingly died at the original campaign's conclusion is rumored to be alive with barely any reason given? Again, I acknowledge it as part of the game's canon, but since SoZ was made by a smaller and very different team than NWN and MotB, those elements felt forced.

I tend to view the OC and MotB and SoZ as (slightly) separate canons. In other words, I don't take what either MotB or SoZ said about the fate of the OC characters as authoritative. 

In MotB, the goal of the developers seemed to be to kill off the old love interests and quickly draw a line under the OC, so that the PC would be free to pursue a mostly guiltless relationship with Gann or Safiya. Many fans were Not Very Happy with that outcome, and possibly because of that, SoZ provided hints that Casavir and Elanee could be alive. 

[Myounage]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Bishop: There are so many ways to off him. Luskans end up catching up with him, old enemies hunt him down and kill him, he is captured, tried, and executed by Neverwinter for treason and mass murder (Red Fallows Watch).

Bishop already dies anyway.

Modifié par Myounage, 03 janvier 2011 - 04:13 .

[Sarielle]

Myounage wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
Bishop: There are so many ways to off him. Luskans end up catching up with him, old enemies hunt him down and kill him, he is captured, tried, and executed by Neverwinter for treason and mass murder (Red Fallows Watch).

Bishop already dies anyway.

...yes. That's not in dispute. People are saying there were far more creative ways to kill him (and the others) off than "Rocks Fall, Everyone Dies."

[Seagloom]

ottery wrote...

I tend to view the OC and MotB and SoZ as (slightly) separate canons. In other words, I don't take what either MotB or SoZ said about the fate of the OC characters as authoritative. 

In MotB, the goal of the developers seemed to be to kill off the old love interests and quickly draw a line under the OC, so that the PC would be free to pursue a mostly guiltless relationship with Gann or Safiya. Many fans were Not Very Happy with that outcome, and possibly because of that, SoZ provided hints that Casavir and Elanee could be alive. 

I was less bothered by MotB since the OC did a splendid job of killing off the whole party prior. It was nice Ammon Jerro was included long enough to give us a clue what may have happened, but after an ending like that I had no expectation of seeing any former party members again. Also, MotB's lead designer and writers differred from the previous campaigns. I always had the impression George Ziets was doing his own thing with Gann and Saifya, who if anything, had their teensy romance dialogues thrown in out of fan demand. I do remember a fair number of people back then asking for a continuation of OC romances in MotB, but I remember quite a few that considered Casavir and Elanee little more than flings and had n problem moving on.

In any case, I felt more comfortable with MotB since the KC returned as protagonist and there was at least lip service paid to the OC. SoZ was the black sheep of that trilogy. Several new staff members, new party, new gameplay style, and only a tenuous connection with the OC's plot. The cameos and vague hints such as the earlier mentioned Casavir mentions felt like fan service to me. In that we we agree. The problem with fan service is it makes it feel less legitimate to me. I keep asking myself if that was what the writers would have wanted.

[ottery]

Seagloom wrote...

ottery wrote...

I tend to view the OC and MotB and SoZ as (slightly) separate canons. In other words, I don't take what either MotB or SoZ said about the fate of the OC characters as authoritative. 

In MotB, the goal of the developers seemed to be to kill off the old love interests and quickly draw a line under the OC, so that the PC would be free to pursue a mostly guiltless relationship with Gann or Safiya. Many fans were Not Very Happy with that outcome, and possibly because of that, SoZ provided hints that Casavir and Elanee could be alive. 

I was less bothered by MotB since the OC did a splendid job of killing off the whole party prior. It was nice Ammon Jerro was included long enough to give us a clue what may have happened, but after an ending like that I had no expectation of seeing any former party members again. Also, MotB's lead designer and writers differred from the previous campaigns. I always had the impression George Ziets was doing his own thing with Gann and Saifya, who if anything, had their teensy romance dialogues thrown in out of fan demand. I do remember a fair number of people back then asking for a continuation of OC romances in MotB, but I remember quite a few that considered Casavir and Elanee little more than flings and had n problem moving on.

In any case, I felt more comfortable with MotB since the KC returned as protagonist and there was at least lip service paid to the OC. SoZ was the black sheep of that trilogy. Several new staff members, new party, new gameplay style, and only a tenuous connection with the OC's plot. The cameos and vague hints such as the earlier mentioned Casavir mentions felt like fan service to me. In that we we agree. The problem with fan service is it makes it feel less legitimate to me. I keep asking myself if that was what the writers would have wanted.

I don't think the OC did kill off the old party -  IIRC, which I may not, since the final voice-over is so bloody awful that I normally skip it, the OC ended on a cliffhanger. In real life, if a few hundred tons of rocks collapses on someone, you assume they're dead. In a fantasy game, the opposite rules apply. Unless you see the body, they're potentially alive and kicking. 

Speaking of my own experience, I didn't mind the mass cull. I was lucky, because my favourite NWN2 OC character is Ammon and my second favourite is Sand. But I think that if you are RP-ing a character whose big romantic love is meant to be Elanee or Casavir (or Qara or Grobnar:whistle:), MotB is going to be a fairly hollow experience. MotB asks the KC to fight for his or her life, right at the point where a lot of KCs probably feel like lying down and giving up. 

I liked MotB, but having the KC as protagonist seemed a little inconsequential. It could really have been anyone. It was a great game,  but often unlike the OC in tone - the OC was a kind of a mishmash between MotB's melodrama and SoZ's lightness. I understand why other people would not like it as a continuation of the OC. I wish the devs had had time to implement the playhouse subplot - that would have been a nice link back and sounds like it would have provided some fun light relief as well. 

Part of the trouble of speaking about 'what the writers would have wanted' is that it seems unlikely that the falling-rocks were their ideal ending - it seems like a hook to get people to buy the expansion and get the old companions out of the way. Lt. Danger in his 'Let's Play' even suggests that they implicitly apologised for the ending through something Ammon says: 

PC :I was upset that we got separated and I couldn't find out what had happened to everyone.
Ammon : An understandable reaction to such an abrupt and disheartening conclusion, I suppose... but the circumstances were well beyond our control, and it was far too late to change that course of events.
Ammon : There is little point in dwelling on it now, regardless. What more do you remember?
PC : I remember being displeased that the fortress's architecture wasn't more structurally sound.
Ammon: Yes. That powerful and evil beings insist on causing destruction even as they die is an unfortunate habit. I hope it is the last time I witness such an event

I can't remember where I read it, but was there not a plan at some point to do a different kind of expansion - one involving the Githyanki and the Astral Plane? (Mind you, that might just have been a fan rumour that stuck in my head  before Obsidian released the details of MotB.) 

Modifié par ottery, 04 janvier 2011 - 11:16 .

[Leinadi]

I'm personally of the opinion that the release of MotB made the NWN2 OC a much stronger story in itself. Or rather, I still find the OC to be rather boring to play through but it provides an *excellent* backstory to where we are in MotB, and provides rather interesting motivations for the main character.



I didn't have a huge problem with the NWN2 ending aside from how fast it seems to have been thrown together, but yeah... I think the tragedy angle works very nicely for the PC in MotB. Here's a character that's suffered through a *lot*, saving a whole bunch of people, destroying the ancient evil etc etc. But he doesn't even get a heroic death in the end. Instead, he gets thrust into this new series of horrible events in MotB, the receiver of a terrible curse, experimented upon, dumped in a foreign land with no clue as to what's happened to his prior friends (or if they even survived).



One of my favorite playthroughs was playing as Neutral character in the OC who then ended up "falling" to Evil in MotB, because after having gone through so much stuff... He just ended up succumbing to the curse, taking advantage of it in horrible ways and basically taking his revenge on the world. It was absolutely glorious and one of the most engaging playthroughs I've had.



I love SoZ to death but I tend to treat it more as a fun romp and sorta "slightly" canonical. I did think it was actually great fun to revisit the Sword Coast (which I certainly didn't expect because that place is just... *boring* for the most part). I think they did a good job of continuing that story without dwelling overly much on things that happened in the OC (though I didn't like the mention of the mysterious Paladin either).

[HoonDing]

The weak part of the OC for me is Chapter 1, which is basically trudging through boring dungeon after boring dungeon. Chapter 2 & 3 after very good, aside from the shoehorned duel with Lorne.

Kelemvor killed MOTB's story for me. Not to mention, looking at the dates and figuring out that MOTB happens two years or so before the Spellplague, put a serious damper on my enjoyment as well.

Modifié par virumor, 04 janvier 2011 - 11:11 .

[ottery]

I'm personally of the opinion that the release of MotB made the NWN2 OC a much stronger story in itself. Or rather, I still find the OC to be rather boring to play through but it provides an *excellent* backstory to where we are in MotB, and provides rather interesting motivations for the main character.

I think the divide here then is probably between the OC people (who are, um, me, I guess) and the MotB people. I loved the OC and I liked MotB - and I think MotB was too ready to squash the OC characters (that is, Casavir, Elanee, Qara and Grobnar). People who are more invested in MotB won't care, except in that it creates some further angst for their PC.

[Seagloom]

That is an interesting theory and quite possibly true, but it does not apply to me. I enjoyed the OC quite a bit. I agree with virumor in that the first act was a long slog. I found it only picked up once the party is *finally* allowed entrance into Blacklake and the githyanki make their move to kidnap Shandra. Fighting through the library, Ember, and the Githyanki caves were fun rather than tedious. It may be because dialogue was interspersed more frequently throughout those areas than say, Old Owl Well which amounted to a never ending orc hunt.

The reason MotB's events did not bother me has more to do with my finding the OC's cast weak in comparison. I liked Shandra and Ammon Jerro, and Khelgar. Sand, Neeshka, and Elanee were okay but I thought received comparatively less character development than the previously mentioned three. Bishop was done well, but I disliked him, and his death at the KC's hands was guaranteed for any character choosing not to side with the King of Shadows.

Since we knew Shandra died and Ammon Jerro appeared in MotB, Khelgar was the only character I truly missed. I cannot speak to Elanee's romance from direct experience, but Casavir's was nonexistent. It basically amounted to a one night stand proposal. That makes moving on to Gannayev *very* easy. I felt waaay closer to Shandra and Khelgar. They felt like real friends. Casavir was barely an acquaintance throughout. Heck, he talked on a personal level to my KC less frequently than Bishop did, and I usually had crap influence with Bishop.

If the NWN2 OC cast were not so stereotyped and had meaningful development, I might have felt differently. Sand, for example, is funny to have around. His caustic wit is often a delight to hear. But he remains the same character throughout and never really grows, or grows closer to the KC. Neeshka is the same way. There is a trust between her and the KC if influence is high, but she is still the same kleptomaniac tiefling with a tenuous grasp on good planning. Then there are characters such as Qara, Zhjaeve, and Grobnar that are caricatures of fantasy tropes with virtually no development whatsoever.

That disconnection is what makes the MotB transition a snap in my eyes. The OC itself was mostly fine. I enjoy a good lighthearted romp, and I actually delighted in some of the illogical, cheesy moments such as kicking Lorne's butt in trial by combat. Heck, the entire trial portion of act two is one of that campaign's highlights in my opinion.

Modifié par Seagloom, 05 janvier 2011 - 10:53 .

[I_Raps]

ottery wrote...

Ammon: Yes. That powerful and evil beings insist on causing destruction even as they die is an unfortunate habit. I hope it is the last time I witness such an event

Pot, meet kettle.

Modifié par I_Raps, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:25 .

[Kaldor Silverwand]

Sounds like a few of you may be interested in playing through MotB again using my MotB Makeover SoZ Edition. I've been developing it for the last year (much longer than I thought it would take) and am nearing completion. In the same spirit as the OC Makeover, the MotB Makeover will add some additional plot choices without removing any existing ones. The most substantial additional plot choice will be an alternative way to resuscitate Ammon Jerro that doesn't require trading souls with the Pit Fiends. Taking the alternative path should be more compatible with good characters, and opens up an intersection with the OC and 4 of the OC companions. The OC companions you encounter can optionally be added to your party without requiring the removal of the MotB companions. I will be providing dialogue to explain their survival.

The thread in which I discuss the development of the MotB Makeover is here, so if you have any thoughts or suggestions please post them there and I promise I will consider them.

Regards

Modifié par Kaldor Silverwand, 04 janvier 2011 - 11:30 .

[ottery]

That is an interesting theory and quite possibly true, but it does apply to me. I enjoyed the OC quite a bit. I agree with virumor in that the first act was a long slog. I found it only picked up once the party is *finally* allowed entrance into Blacklake and the githyanki make their move to kidnap Shandra.

Thanks for the post. It was an interesting read - 'fraid I don't have much to say apart from that, but thank you, anyway.

Although I like MotB, I find quite a lot of it too glum and mechanical. 'Oh, I've just completed a major quest, it must be time to talk to my companions again about spiritual matters.' Well, yay.

I found that I didn't much mind the unfinished characters in the OC because it gave me a break from the Bioware model of companion relationships - you know, where the PC sorts out their problems and/or Changes Them Irrevocably. I like it when at least some characters really aren't changed or change by themselves. And I don't mind loose ends so much either. You know how some people say that The Mystery of Edwin Drood is the greatest mystery novel ever written because the author did the decent thing and joined the horizontal majority before he could write the ending? I'm a bit like that with games. The perfectly polished, well-finished games often end up disappointing me, because I play them and then think 'Is that really all there was...?' With raggle-taggle half-finished products like the OC, I'm left wondering about what might be and what might have been long after they're over. Not all of my questions are answered when the curtain goes down and the rocks fall. Yes, I know I'm perverse.

Last summer I cheated all of the OC companions into the party, and it was great. It was like being chased around the Sword Coast by a crazy Greek Chorus gone awol from the circus. I loved the banter and nagging and arguments and the way you could hardly do anything without half your companions queuing up to tell you how totally wrong you are about everything. I know some people hated that, but I loved it and really missed it in MotB.

Modifié par ottery, 05 janvier 2011 - 10:24 .

[Seagloom]

Thank you. I edited it a bit for clarity. There were unintended word omissions at points that needed correcting. Goes to show I should never submit a first draft for a long post.



I can understand that desire and I do agree with it where it makes sense. Bishop is an example of a character that never changes while being very well done. I hate the character as a person, but love him as an example of writing in a game. He remains an unrepentant muffin up to the end. My issue with characters such as Sand, Neeshka, and Qara is not exactly that they did not change. I was unclear there and apologize. It is that they are unchanging while lacking in depth. When an NPC can easily fit into a stereotype, change and development is the easiest way to convey they are more than a running gag. Bishop did not need to change because he had a lot more going for him than a one track personality.



To cite two examples of what I mean from other games...



Oghren: He was a bad dwarf stereotype. Oghren was a dirty little bugger that liked to fight and drink his weight in booze daily. His entire personality revolves around spouting vulgar commentary and crass sexual advances. However, the Branka story arc, his moment in front of the Guardian of the Urn, his final speech prior to the endgame, and his ending--especially if the Warden dies, show there is a real person behind all that. Oghren changes because of the PC's actions and becomes more meaningful than one dimensional comic relief as a result.



Jan Jansen: The eccentric gnome who loves telling long-winded and nonsensical stories shows compassion, hatred, and regret during his personal quest. Jan spends the whole of SoA and ToB acting like a clown, but when he is forced to confront his past and his deeply hidden feelings toward an old flame, it brings out the person underneath. Jan did not need to experience an epiphany induced by the Bhaalspawn's influence and does not, in fact, ever change even into his ending screen. However, we know there is more to Jan than meets the eye based on that quest. We know that underneath his antics is a person with baggage and real connections to others.



Neeshka's closest moment to that was at the very end when Garius tries to use magical coercion to win her over. Unfortunately it is way too little too late. Qara never comes across as more than a spoiled pyromaniac brat. Sand is always this elitist, if hilarious jerk. Perhaps not every character needs to delve beyond the surface, but those I find most memorable usually do. Do I need to know everything about them and solve all their problems? Not really. I do not mind having a few unanswered questions and lingering lose ends. I just prefer to see my party members as something approaching real people. The ambiguity can be left to NPCs or temporary party members with close ties to the protagonist.



I thought MotB did come across as too dreary at times, but I suppose that was what George Ziets was going for with his plots. I quite enjoyed the post quest dialogue with companions though. It could have been handled better, and more organically. I would have preferred if they approached my character at times. It was a great change from most character driven RPGs, though. Usually party members stay mum through all kinds of events. I like having an opportunity to show my character's human side. Sharing her concerns, lamenting or dismissing what occurred... that sort of thing. I wish there was more of that in RPGs, or at least more characters that forced a protagonist to confront their choices and feelings similarly to how Shandra did.



Apologies for another wall of text.

[Sarielle]

Seagloom wrote...

Oghren:  his final speech prior to the endgame

YES. He was epic there. I actually said "Wow, Oghren," out loud.

Modifié par Sarielle, 06 janvier 2011 - 04:57 .

[ottery]

 

Neeshka's closest moment to that was at the very end when Garius tries to use magical coercion to win her over. Unfortunately it is way too little too late. Qara never comes across as more than a spoiled pyromaniac brat. Sand is always this elitist, if hilarious jerk. Perhaps not every character needs to delve beyond the surface, but those I find most memorable usually do. Do I need to know everything about them and solve all their problems? Not really. I do not mind having a few unanswered questions and lingering lose ends. I just prefer to see my party members as something approaching real people. The ambiguity can be left to NPCs or temporary party members with close ties to the protagonist.

I like Qara as a concept, but I think the execution was badly mangled. However, Qara does, I think, have one or two humane moments - if you take her with you to OOW, she's upset about the zombie-mage; she's also intensely loyal to the PC if you get her influence up, but not many people do. Neeshka has always seemed okay to me - unimaginative, maybe, but I'm not sure what more you want from her? Except maybe that she be something other than a cute red-haired rogue like Imoen and Annah and Mission and someone whose name I've forgotten. Sand could have done with a sidequest, but I find it quite likely that serious character development would have destroyed most of the sarcasm-filled joy that he brought to the game. It's Pessimists Inc. over here. 

I've been watching a lot of a BBC comedy programme, The Thick of It, lately, so please forgive me but I'm going to go on a long, rambling, and rather pointless digression about it. Because I am an obsessive fan, and that's what obsessive fans do. Anyway, The Thick of It is a sitcom stroke political satire. Over the last series, the writers apparently decided to try and add more depth to the characters and move them away from their comedy-of-manners Yes, Minister roots. One of the main characters, a government enforcer, starts to show signs of cracking after years spent bullying and blackmailing his way around Westminster. At the end of a recent episode, someone says to him - "oh, by the way, it's your birthday, isn't it? Is it a big one?" And  looking completely shattered, he replies - "Fifty". And that's it. But in a subsequent episode, he had a full scenery-chewing emotional breakdown, which was okay, but I don't know that it was a more effective way of showing character depth than was that exhausted "Fifty". 

I suppose that what I'm trying to say is that while Sand. Qara et al could have done with more character development, there are more understated ways to do this than by always giving them a Tragic Past/Tragic Dilemma/solvable sidequest.  If the writing is good enough, the player should know instinctively that they aren't talking to a hunk of cardboard without being hit over the head by backstory and character exposition or grand speeches. So I suppose I liked the NWN2 OC characters because (largely by accident) the devs made them feel layered to me. The devs had planned on Ogren/Jan-style developments for Casavir and Qara and Sand, but they didn't have time to implement them, so instead of sidequests and backstories and exposition, there are just these little question marks hanging round the characters. Texture. Okay, often very faint texture, but it's there, cross my heart and hope no one asks me exactly where it is. 

Re: Shandra. I've always blown hot and cold on her characterisation. I love her when she's annoyed or sarcastic or bewildered or angry. I like the 'talking about feelings' stuff less, because her character becomes quite flat at those points. (Maybe if I'd played as a right bastard, I wouldn't think that, because I'd have elicited more fiery, less milk-and-water responses.) OTOH, BG2 was excellent in that it had pretty much all the party asking the PC searching questions without the insipid replies. BG2 

ETA:  I  haven't written this much crap for a long time. 

Modifié par ottery, 06 janvier 2011 - 03:10 .

[Vaalyah]

Ehm, sorry for sounding rude, but this is a forum supposed to be "spoiler warning" for the OC. I play the OC but not MotB yet, so I come here and read posts with tranquillity in my mind. But there are SO MANY spoilers about MotB (not even being announced before the sentences) that is IMPOSSIBLE to read on without spoiling the game. So, please, can you at least put an advice before a MotB spoiler?

Thank you.