123 réponses à ce sujet

[ottery]

Vaalyah wrote...

Ehm, sorry for sounding rude, but this is a forum supposed to be "spoiler warning" for the OC. I play the OC but not MotB yet, so I come here and read posts with tranquillity in my mind. But there are SO MANY spoilers about MotB (not even being announced before the sentences) that is IMPOSSIBLE to read on without spoiling the game. So, please, can you at least put an advice before a MotB spoiler?
Thank you.

Not meaning to argue with you, but where are the big MotB spoilers? There's stuff here about the OC companions and what happens to them, but they aren't what Mask is about. 

[kamalpoe]

Zaxares wrote...

2. Neeshka always survives, if she did not betray the KC.

False. Spoiler****









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You can summon her via spell in SoZ. She has to be dead for that.
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[ottery]

kamalpoe wrote...

Zaxares wrote...

2. Neeshka always survives, if she did not betray the KC.

False. Spoiler****









----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can summon her via spell in SoZ. She has to be dead for that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler. 

You can also summon Mephasm and he ain't dead. 

But SoZ does make a mistake by letting you summon Korabouros, who is often killed in the OC and is confirmed as about as dead as a devil can be in MotB. 

I think the devs put her in as an easter egg. 

Modifié par ottery, 06 janvier 2011 - 03:27 .

[kamalpoe]

ottery wrote...

kamalpoe wrote...

Zaxares wrote...

2. Neeshka always survives, if she did not betray the KC.

False. Spoiler****









----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can summon her via spell in SoZ. She has to be dead for that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler. 

You can also summon Mephasm and he ain't dead. 

But SoZ does make a mistake by letting you summon Korabouros, who is often killed in the OC and is confirmed as about as dead as a devil can be in MotB. 

I think the devs put her in as an easter egg. 

Spoiler:





You summon her using a spell that summons from the lower planes, Mephasm only had to return to his home plane. The Prime is where Neeshka spent all her time as evidenced by her history in Neverwinter. So for her to be summonable from the Lower Planes, she's either dead or was magically transported to the lower planes for an escape. Dead being much more likely. Yes, an easter egg no doubt, but her being dead is the only way the egg would make sense, and best fit with the OC ending.

[ottery]

kamalpoe wrote...

ottery wrote...

kamalpoe wrote...

Zaxares wrote...

2. Neeshka always survives, if she did not betray the KC.

False. Spoiler****









----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can summon her via spell in SoZ. She has to be dead for that.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler. 

You can also summon Mephasm and he ain't dead. 

But SoZ does make a mistake by letting you summon Korabouros, who is often killed in the OC and is confirmed as about as dead as a devil can be in MotB. 

I think the devs put her in as an easter egg. 

Spoiler:





You summon her using a spell that summons from the lower planes, Mephasm only had to return to his home plane. The Prime is where Neeshka spent all her time as evidenced by her history in Neverwinter. So for her to be summonable from the Lower Planes, she's either dead or was magically transported to the lower planes for an escape. Dead being much more likely. Yes, an easter egg no doubt, but her being dead is the only way the egg would make sense, and best fit with the OC ending.

SoZ takes place some  months after the end of the OC. With her hectic life, it's quite possible Neeshka got magically transported to the lower planes. But I really think you're over-egging the easter egg by setting so much store by it. I mean, the devs didn't even give her (or Mephasm or any of the other previously loquacious devils and demons) dialogue. It doesn't seem like they meant the player to take her appearance very seriously. 

[Vaalyah]

ottery wrote...

Not meaning to argue with you, but where are the big MotB spoilers? There's stuff here about the OC companions and what happens to them, but they aren't what Mask is about. 

Since when I read one, I usually skip the rest of the post, I am not going to go back for quoting the part I am referring too, but for example, I didn't know who will survive in MotB before reading this thread!

[I_Raps]

ottery wrote...
It doesn't seem like they meant the player to take her appearance very seriously. 

Certainly not as serious as the chicken. 

[Seagloom]

Neeshka's appearance was an easter egg, full stop, for two reasons. Firstly, she is what the 3e rules refer to as a native outsider. Unlike traditional fiends such as Mephasm, Toril is considered her home plane. She is not subject to calling spell effects targeted upon the Abyss or Nine Hells while alive. Secondly, she is not subject to them while dead either. As a worshiper of Tymora, Neeshka's soul would be whisked away to that goddess's realm in Bright Water a short while after her death. It might be possible to contact her through a medium or powerful necromancy spell, but bringing her bodily into the Realms would be impossible without a ressurection. It would also attract Tymora's attention since you would need to punch a portal into her divine realm to bring Neeshka back.

In other words, it was totally an easter egg because it sure as heck does not cleave to any lore.

Modifié par Seagloom, 06 janvier 2011 - 11:23 .

[Seagloom]

@ottery...

I am very tired. Forgive me if this reads as an incoherent mess.

Anyway, I remember that moment. I once went out of my way to get high influence with Qara just to see what would happen. It was nice seeing her show up before the trial by combat to offer assistance. Although, it was a bit less nice when she implied my sorceress who was more powerful would be toast without her help. I think the most touching Qara moment was when she referred to my KC as a friend after being convinced not to start anything with the academy caretaker. Unfortunately there was nothing else to her outside those fleeting moments. It was painfully obvious Obsidian wanted to do more with Qara and had to cut it even before people dug into the scripts and confirmed it. There was so much wasted potential there.

I think unimaginative is a good description for most of the OC characters. In Neeshka's case I wanted her heritage to be explored a bit. She was not the type of person I could see changing a great deal or having much depth. Annah and Imoen had more layers to peel; although Imoen had barely any dialogue compared to the two tieflings. Neeshka also seemed to know a lot about the Planes and it was never explained how she came upon that knowledge. Her past was barely touched on at all, in fact. Maybe I was expecting too much from a character the writers meant to be shallow.

Sand had the same issue as Qara and Casavir. It felt like there was supposed to be more there that ended up on the cutting room floor. I think his acerbic wit could have stood the test of character development. It may have even been enhanced by it depending on exactly how those events played out. I can understand wanting an implied background. In that sense, we got it in spades with at least Sand. I do not necessarily need it spelled out with heart wrenching moments of exposition and emotional turmoil. On the other hand, I need more than a running gag from a character I spent an upwards of forty hours with in a game. As you wrote, the texture was very faint. I felt it was a bit too faint to feel satisfying. It also led to a few moments of utter confusion. Take for instance Sand's turning on the party if the player garnered more influence with Qara; especially when they managed to establish a rapport with both mages. It was such a bizarre moment since the seen when Qara freaks out Sand was cut. It just made him look like a petty jerk. Casavir is even worse, but I rather not beat that dead horse any further for the moment.

Ultimately it comes down to a difference in tastes and expectations. I liked Shandra most of the time, but I loved her when she prodded my character about her feelings. Hardly any character in any game does that. It was a rare opportunity to act out my character and get feedback from the game. I am a sap though. I like to feel emotionally moved by a game. I want to laugh, fear, cringe, rage, and feel sad. All this analytical stuff is what I usually do once the game is over and my feelings have subsided. "Baldur's Gate 2" did a better job of balancing exposition and side questing without beating one over the head with melodrama... usually. I thought Imoen was pretty well done, but her side of the quest was subdued and extremely easy to miss without Sarevok in the party. One of my favorite things about character interaction in that game was how dependent on party composition and quest order it was. That game had length and sheer volume working heavily in its favor, though.

[HoonDing]

I think originally Obsidian had something grand planned for Qara but eventually had to cut it out because (typically) it became too big for them to chew. From what I read on the deleted cutscene on the wiki, it seemed Qara was some kind of Fire elemental in human guise.

[Seagloom]

Indeed. Her cut storyline is considerably more interesting than what we received. Too bad, too. If Obsidian managed to keep it, Qara would have probably been one of my favorite characters. As it stands, she is just sort of there.

Modifié par Seagloom, 07 janvier 2011 - 11:42 .

[Kaioku]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Bishop doesn't need taming. Maybe a joint to mellow his active, neurotic tendancy to dig himself into deeper holes, but beyond that, nah.

This, this, and this again a billion times.

[Bayz]

Companions in the OC can't be resurrected in terms of PnP, and Shandra can't either. In order for Resurrection spells to work the bodies must be dead for only days, the souls must be from people who followed a deity, and the bodies must be complete...like in not torn into pieces. The only way to resurrect the chars would be with an spell of True Wish, which NWN2 did not implement so it's fine.

We don't know how the corpse of Shandra is do we? So we don't know if we can resurrect her.

I for one loved the spoiled brat, and would have liked to end up with her burning people and stuff.

The thing with the Bishop's romance having a "redemption quality", to be honest I blame Bioware for the precedent they set in Baldur's Gate with Viconia and later on Sarevok (which btw I understand on the other hand as evil characters could leave good parties if no evil was done >< they had a reputation of evulz to maintain and...ohh screw it I know it doesn't make any sense but hey there were other times and WotC was watching closely)

To my point of view if you like to change Bishop, you do not like him in the first place. If you like him you accept him as he is, dickery and all included.

Edit: Will never understand the Evil Characters and the reputation system. "Ha ha, we are evil so people call us dicks, send the guards to kill us on sight and the merchants charge us prizes way over the top, and we love every second of it muahuahuahua!"

Not...my idea of evil tbh

Modifié par Bayz, 16 mai 2011 - 11:05 .

[The Fred]

Bayz wrote...

Companions in the OC can't be resurrected in terms of PnP, and Shandra can't either. In order for Resurrection spells to work the bodies must be dead for only days, the souls must be from people who followed a deity, and the bodies must be complete...like in not torn into pieces. The only way to resurrect the chars would be with an spell of True Wish, which NWN2 did not implement so it's fine.

Or True Resurrection, though this also wasn't implemented, but that's due to how the death/res system works in NWN. There'd be no benefit to it over Raise Dead or plain Resurrection.

And I agree, "evil" in most games is just "being an idiot".

[TMZuk]

I thought Bishop was a "refreshing" character. Refreshing in the way that he was a truly evil, selfish opportunist, instead of being pseudo-evil like Viconia. And his end in MotB was just great. Most things about MotB was great of course, but the cruelty in the dialogue between him and my female protagonist during their final meeting was chilling.

I just wish that Obsidian would have been given the time to get the OC done. If all the characters in the OC had been as realized as Bishop it would have ben one of the all time epics, instead of just a fairly good game.

Modifié par TMZuk, 20 mai 2011 - 10:20 .

[The Fred]

Bishop may have been nasty in a way that doesn't normally get done, but having him hang around my bar all the time was really annoying. Playing a broadly good character, I really just wanted to get rid of him. I mean, I didn't like him and my character didn't like him, non of my other companions liked him, and he didn't really like me either.

Also, he was evil in a sort of realistically selfish way, but it was also a really annoying and unfriendly way. I can imagine that even if I were an evil villain myself, I wouldn't get on with him, except possibly to hire him as some sort of evil henchman.

[Esther]

TMZuk wrote...

I thought Bishop was a "refreshing" character. Refreshing in the way that he was a truly evil, selfish opportunist, instead of being pseudo-evil like Viconia. And his end in MotB was just great. Most things about MotB was great of course, but the cruelty in the dialogue between him and my female protagonist during their final meeting was chilling.

I just wish that Obsidian would have been given the time to get the OC done. If all the characters in the OC had been as realized as Bishop it would have ben one of the all time epics, instead of just a fairly good game.

Absolutely, agree. 
Bishop was refreshing, something different. Even though annoying from time to time (and I played as an evil female character), he was perfectly credible in his evilness. 
I have not played MotB yet, so cannot say anything about that yet but really looking forward to playing that campaign. 

[mungbean]

seagloom has a quite rather interesting mind, I could listen to her all day, is she single?

writers guidelines for commercially contributing plot developers/scene writers are pretty explicit in dumbing down all character interaction/development, to reflect regional but fairly common western legislation, censorship and target marketing concerns.

The simple sad truth is that in the world of commercial products and regional censorship, supernatural themes inherent to fantasy genres already warrant MA/Horror classification coming out of the gate. So you have to child it up big time, or you lose the mid-teen target market in censorship. It is specified. You should see the novel length guidelines LucasArts slaps you over the head with.

Either you water down supernatural themes with bad guys wearing black hats and being ridiculous, only the loosest sexual inuendo (dark themes if inferring congress, happily ever after if hand holding), or you lay out heavy handed christian morality in a big bible bash throughout the PC choices and get leeway on character/subplot development. The only other choice is restricted censorship classification for being horror material and adult themes unsuitable for teen audiences.

Doesn't address all the points made in this thread, but is another point to consider.

[XEternalXDreamX]

All of the romances seem unfinished in one way or another. I owned this game back when if first came out and had A BUNCH of bugs (yet somehow still playable), and I bought the game again (with the expansion MotB included, so sad that there is a platinum edition now with SoZ and I can't just buy SoZ on it's own, oh well, no SoZ for me. Unless someone knows where I can buy it?). When I started the game, I made a L.G. and C.E. character and played the game side-by-side. After a couple quests, I switch to the other character to keep up with each other. At first, I was going to go for Elanee for the L.G. male and either Nee or Qara for the C.E. Sadly, we know how the romance ended for the C.E. character. Disappointing but still the other differences for the C.E. made it worthwhile. While romances are not the main plot for this game, it would have added a nice chunk of side plot stories.

Male P.C.
_________

Elanee - The relationship feels forced. For my L.G. character, it was a nice romance but didn't feel up to the standard of considering it a "romance". What I mean by forced, is this is your choice or none at all. As a Good character, this is your run-of-a-generic romance which go hand and hand.

Nee - She was a great romance for a Chaotic PC. She was funny, and quite useful for a rouge. In the beginning, she has a such a jealous streak against other female NPCs that made my C.E. want to push the others aside for her romance factor. After a couple acts, her love/jealously for the PC turned into a shell of itself..Ah well, goes to show that they cut the content. They pumped up the 'romance' factor for her, then deflated it. Disappointing but I kept her in my C.E. party.

Qara - She was like a brat, but I thought there was a softie yet independent woman underneath that interior of graphics (lol). But she grew on me for the Chaotic factor. She didn't like being told what to do; the academy likes to have control of the students so she said, "No, screw that. I'm in control of what I want to do." In this day and age, it's considered bratty and such because there is no such thing besides being "Lawful Good". Lol. Chaotic or Evil makes you jail-bound. Anyway, there could have been a good romance for the PC to harness her into a great sorc (L.G.) or go buck-wild with her (C.E.) She could have went from bratty to a softie for the male PC, yet she feels like the most underdeveloped female companion, imo.

Shandra - Well, we know what happens to her so it serves no real development.

=( For male romance options, (not fake, I'm talking about actor voice acting included) Qara and Nee could have expanded somewhat.

Overall, great game and somewhat lacking romances but nothing that shattered the game.

Modifié par XEternalXDreamX, 12 septembre 2011 - 09:08 .

[sakera]

I_Raps wrote...

Women always think they can reform the bad boy. It's one of the universal constants.

(They can't. That's another.)

Never wanted to reform them -- they are too much fun when they are bad!!  Reforming a bad boy has the same sad feel as when Spike (Buffy: The Vampire Slayer) got chipped & couldn't be evil!

[nino1979]

Neeshka wise;developers sugested that Mephasm had "fingers" in her creation.She was supose to be a doorway so to speak betwen Batoor and Prime,and Bloden sugests about her heritage also so she could be easliy ported to Nine Hells and back, cause she's valuable asset.Mephasm also makes her skin itch like Casavir so go figure.

[TheButterflyEffect]

For crap's sake, you're all stupid.

The point of a ROMANCE is that you develop a ROMANTIC relationship with a character. This guy, from start to finish, was very un romantic.

[animalsienna]

Nice gravedig there. Very relevant and well-considered.

[I_Raps]

animalsienna wrote...

... relevant ...

Not just a gravedig.  A True Resurrection.