117 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

GothamKnight129 wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

You guys always seem to be gambling with everybody else's life in order to satisfy your own egos...and claiming a halo for doing so.

Do you believe in the concept of flawed heroes? I try to be a flawed hero when I play the game since Marvel Comics has made an entire fortune on flawed heroes.

Heroism is risking your own life for the good of everybody else.

Risking everybody else's life for your own emotional gain is not heroism, flawed or otherwise.

[Xilizhra]

Xili, don't you think it's a bit narcissistic to believe that strategic alliances between nation states will depend upon your personal reputation and referral network?

TIM himself said that I was a vital symbol and asset.

I don't buy it. If we knew the turians had developed a superweapon in secret (and indeed they did, the thanix cannon, right?) we'd surely be more likely to ally with them than not to.

This is Cerberus, remember.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

If you fear your reputation will suffer for working with Cerberus, you've already worked with Cerberus and given them aid on a number of occassions. The base decision does not shield you from charges of treason.

I think I'm more likely to get charges of treason by blowing the thing up, considering that Cerberus is likely still part of the Alliance. I'm more worried here about the Council.

The Alliance is a cornerstone of the Council as well.

Moreover, what do you expect them to think and feel about you when they are forced to come to terms with the imminent Reaper invasion threat and are reminded you blew the base up?

The lives of colonists lost while diddlying around to get the IFF, when/if the Council (I presume you would want the Council to have it) ever extracted it and let you use it.

Wait, what? How does the scientists dying in the Reaper actually help your progress?

The scientists died locating and preparing the IFF for Shepard to retrieve. Without their haste, more time for more Collector attacks would have occured. If you handed over to the Council, you and I both know Shepard would have been kept out of the loop until they did their own research, however long it took.

Infact, there's nothing to indicate that Cerberus's actions were particularly what set off the Reaper to raise its barriers. The Reaper could still have sunk into the star regardless, and without the focus on the IFF no one would have gotten beyond the Omega 4 relay.

See it always boils down to reputation or TIM is evil. How people prefer extinction to their reputation is completely illogical. Your reputation is more important then survival?

No, we believe that keeping the base is detrimental to our chances of survival, for various reasons. It's fine if you don't agree with the logic, but to say that none of it is based on any kind of logic is willful blindness.

If you cling to what others deem invalid logic, it pretty much is willful blindness.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Xili, don't you think it's a bit narcissistic to believe that strategic alliances between nation states will depend upon your personal reputation and referral network?

TIM himself said that I was a vital symbol and asset.

And? I assume you have a point besides a vague insinuation that makes you the indespensible man for cooperation.

I mean, it's not like they face mutual threats or have worked together in the past in some giant, galactic cooperative organization for longer than Shepard's been alive.

[Xilizhra]

Moreover, what do you expect them to think and feel about you when they are forced to come to terms with the imminent Reaper invasion threat and are reminded you blew the base up?

The Council is one of the most paranoid bunches of worrywarts in the galaxy. I'm not terribly worried.

The scientists died locating and preparing the IFF for Shepard to retrieve. Without their haste, more time for more Collector attacks would have occured. If you handed over to the Council, you and I both know Shepard would have been kept out of the loop until they did their own research, however long it took.

Where did they prepare the IFF? All I saw is Shepard taking the thing out of a wall; had they even made it that far into the ship yet? I may be misremembering, as it's been a while since I played.

If you cling to what others deem invalid logic, it pretty much is willful blindness.

Some people deem it invalid, others deem it valid. I suppose we'll have to wait for ME3 to see what happens.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Moreover, what do you expect them to think and feel about you when they are forced to come to terms with the imminent Reaper invasion threat and are reminded you blew the base up?

The Council is one of the most paranoid bunches of worrywarts in the galaxy. I'm not terribly worried.

About what? The armad of genocidal AI with technology centuries ahead of the Council that the Council has repeatedly refused to accept even exists? Or that the Council, when they realize you blew up a priceless opportunity to mitigate galactic costs, won't hold hard feelings?

Where did they prepare the IFF? All I saw is Shepard taking the thing out of a wall; had they even made it that far into the ship yet? I may be misremembering, as it's been a while since I played.

You pick it off the table where they left it before being indoctrinated. If you have Miranda in you party, the party member line is effectively 'so they were able to recover it after all.'

[Xilizhra]

About what? The armad of genocidal AI with technology centuries ahead of the Council that the Council has repeatedly refused to accept even exists? Or that the Council, when they realize you blew up a priceless opportunity to mitigate galactic costs, won't hold hard feelings?

I don't believe that the base was key to defeating the Reapers, and I believe I can explain my actions about not wanting to increase Cerberus' power at an unstable time, thus allowing them to topple our defense altogether through some power play or other.

You pick it off the table where they left it before being indoctrinated. If you have Miranda in you party, the party member line is effectively 'so they were able to recover it after all.'

Ah, fair enough.

[AdmiralCheez]

PARAGON APOLOGISM IS GO. (For the lulz, guys; I renegade just as often.)

CaptainZaysh wrote...

The first reason is I suppose a defensible one, although I'd say it's overcautious to the point of being dangerously negligent.  (Imagine if you'd applied that thinking to the derelict Reaper before Cerberus found the IFF: you'd never have completed the mission.)  Remember the one unforgivable failure in war is the failure to take risks.

Fact is, with all that tech infused with the Collectors, I'm not sure that a "radiation pulse" will kill them entirely.  The minions, sure, but what if there was a legion of praetorians buried in that thing?  On insanity, those things can take a Cain to the face and just laugh it off and recharge their barriers (cheating bastards).  Better to nuke the whole thing and then pick up whatever pieces are left.  After all, even though Sovereign bit it on the Citadel, enough was salvaged to develop the Thanix Cannon.

Recurrig theme in Mass Effect: make sure it's dead.

I don't know about you but I would be f**king furious with a soldier who, on the eve of a hopeless war, destroyed a potentially game changing asset because he wanted to make absolutely sure no scientists died studying it.  Remember there are billions of lives at stake here.  What happened to the science team on the derelict Reaper sucked, but what would have happened if they hadn't made that sacrifice would have sucked a whole lot more.

Billions of lives that have an equal chance of getting screwed over if the wrong people use the base in the wrong way.  See below.

The other two reasons are classic paragonism, that is elevating your own personal emotional needs over the very survival of the rest of the galaxy.  Look at how you're more concerned about your reputation (i.e. your emotional need to be admired) or how Cerberus shares out the advanced technology (i.e. your emotional need to control the behaviour of others) than the rather more crucial question of whether the advanced technology can actually advance the war effort.  Your whole rant might as well just say: "TIM, you won't use this asset in the way I think you should, so nyah nyah nyah I'm blowing it up."

Cerberus has done some very stupid and destructive things.  Chances are, letting them play with Collector tech will wind up in them doing something even more stupid and destructive than, say, feeding soldiers to Thresher Maws.  How did that help humanity again?

And, although I can't say the same for the OP, I have never, not once, paragon'd for the sake of my reputation.

Another recurring theme in Mass Effect: trying to control that which is mightier than yourself tends to end badly.  The rachni experiments.  The Thorian.  Saren and Sovereign.  The quarians and the geth.  Historical precedent for the win.

To paraphrase Heinlein: paragonism is a shifty doctrine.  Whether it's releasing the rachni, shutting down the Overlord project, blowing up the advanced tech Collector base, curing the genophage, or splitting your forces at a vital moment in order to save three politicians, you guys always seem to be gambling with everybody else's life in order to satisfy your own egos...and claiming a halo for doing so.

1. Saving the rachni: talking with the queen made it rather clear that her people did not invade of their own free will.  Trusting her is absurdly naive, but it seems to have turned out well.

2. Overlord: Why control the geth when the heretics are no longer a problem?  Legion made that clear enough, and mind control (again, recurring theme) tends to end badly.  Furthermore, the weapon Archer developed could be used to seize control of any and all technology.  Let violent extremists run everything with wireless?  U mad?

3. Curing genophage: Did not cure, but kept the data.  Data is useful and does not indoctrinate people.  I think everyone agrees that suddenly curing the genophage would unleash hell, whether through a krogan population explosion or through the Council's overreaction.

4. Saving three politicians: Okay, for starters, let me remind you that the Destiny Ascension had a crew of ten thousand.  For the rest, allow me to quote myself:

My intention was not to "save that bucket of scrap."  I could care less
about the Council, really.  However, the geth were still out there and
attacking everything and anything that wasn't Sovereign.  The forces
charged with guarding the Citadel could not have taken them out, at
least not without heavy casualties.  However, by calling in the
Alliance, you could trap the geth between the two forces and completely
overwhelm them, thus saving a few extra Council ships and giving you an
even bigger overall attack force to fight Sovereign, with minimal loss
on the human side as well because the geth simply could not fight a
fleet that size.

Leaving the DA to fend for itself means that it
and all other Council ships get creamed by the geth, leaving humans to
deal with both the remaining geth and Sovereign alone.

Not to
mention that the Destiny Ascention had a crew of thousands, and there
must have been hundreds of others in those turian ships.  Less
casualties and more ships = more pwnage and humans get to be big guddamn
heroes.

Wasting reinforcements?  Oh ho ho, no.  Crush the enemy with overwhelming numbers, that's how you do it.

5. Gambling with lives: Better to gamble than outright sentence people to death, I should say.  Oooohhh snap.

EDIT:  THREAD RELEVANCE SAVE!  Yeah, I wish the paragon lines weren't so cheesy.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:42 .

[GothamKnight129]

AdmiralCheez wrote...


And, although I can't say the same for the OP, I have never, not once, paragon'd for the sake of my reputation.

Well, what I wrote was just a rough draft. I was trying to come up with a better reason for destroying the Collector Base other than "Too many good people have died here," and "We can win this war without the Collector Base," because I was trying to depict a Commander Shepard who wanted to go back to his old life. You guys know how the Alliance feels about Cerberus. And do you seriously think the Alliance would welcome Shepard back with open arms if he decided to salvage the Collector space station for Cerberus?

I know Ashley wouldn't.

Modifié par GothamKnight129, 08 décembre 2010 - 02:50 .

[CaptainZaysh]

GothamKnight129 wrote...

Well, what I wrote was just a rough draft. I was trying to come up with a better reason for destroying the Collector Base other than "Too many good people have died here," and "We can win this war without the Collector Base," because I was trying to depict a Commander Shepard who wanted to go back to his old life. You guys know how the Alliance feels about Cerberus, and do you seriously think the Alliance would welcome Shepard back with open arms if he decided to salvage the Collector space station for Cerberus?

Wow.  You don't see anything wrong with risking billions of lives if it helps you get your old job back?

[AdmiralCheez]

GothamKnight129 wrote...

Well, what I wrote was just a rough draft. I was trying to come up with a better reason for destroying the Collector Base other than "Too many good people have died here," and "We can win this war without the Collector Base," because I was trying to depict a Commander Shepard who wanted to go back to his old life. You guys know how the Alliance feels about Cerberus, and do you seriously think the Alliance would welcome Shepard back with open arms if he decided to salvage the Collector space station for Cerberus?

Problem is, it's still a pretty shallow reason.  Shepard is already labeled as a traitor, so it's too late to make nice with the Alliance.

[Undertone]

Xilizhra wrote...

No, we believe that keeping the base is detrimental to our chances of survival, for various reasons. It's fine if you don't agree with the logic, but to say that none of it is based on any kind of logic is willful blindness.

What are those reasons then  All I hear is reasons, reasons, reasons. So enlighten me finally then with the logic behind destroying the base.  

[AdmiralCheez]

Undertone wrote...

What are those reasons then  All I hear is reasons, reasons, reasons. So enlighten me finally then with the logic behind destroying the base. 

See that wall of text up there I pounded out?  Read it.

[Legion 2.5]

Like when you are owning the Illusive Man

[GothamKnight129]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

GothamKnight129 wrote...

Well, what I wrote was just a rough draft. I was trying to come up with a better reason for destroying the Collector Base other than "Too many good people have died here," and "We can win this war without the Collector Base," because I was trying to depict a Commander Shepard who wanted to go back to his old life. You guys know how the Alliance feels about Cerberus, and do you seriously think the Alliance would welcome Shepard back with open arms if he decided to salvage the Collector space station for Cerberus?

Wow.  You don't see anything wrong with risking billions of lives if it helps you get your old job back?

You're talking to the same guy who decided to let the Alien Council die because it made perfect sense. Those idiots didn't believe in a Reaper attack until it actually happened. And I just let them get blown to bits because I needed to focus all the Fleet's firepower on Sovereign. 

Also the point I'm trying to make here is, I may not have a halo on my head while I'm playing the game but I'm certainly not a mad-dog killer who does all renegade deeds all the time. I'm somewhere in between good and evil. That guy in Clear and Present Danger (1994) said it best. 

"Gray. The world is gray Jack!"


 

Modifié par GothamKnight129, 08 décembre 2010 - 03:03 .

[Undertone]

Fact is, with all that tech infused with the Collectors, I'm not sure that a "radiation pulse" will kill them entirely. The minions, sure, but what if there was a legion of praetorians buried in that thing? On insanity, those things can take a Cain to the face and just laugh it off and recharge their barriers (cheating bastards). Better to nuke the whole thing and then pick up whatever pieces are left. After all, even though Sovereign bit it on the Citadel, enough was salvaged to develop the Thanix Cannon.



If there were millions of praetorians don't you think it would be logical if the Collector general used them against Shepard and co. ?



Technology is ambiguous. For every argument how technology that is mightier to control - you have Thanix cannon, Lazarus project (without which our dear Shepard wouldn't live) etc.



I would rather have human dominance (if the TIM uses it "for the wrong reasons") then utter annihilation.



The Rachni race working out - paragon plot armor, just as every other decision in the game.



Saving the Council - again paragon plot armor. In the context of time we have no idea for how long Vigil data will work. Taken care of Sovereign is a priority. The Geth can fight the rest, while humanity takes it out. Then we can help them take care of the Geth. If we don't we have Sovereign letting the Reapers come in = annihilation. That didn't happen why? Cause of plot armor.



At any rate I fail to see how these are relevant to the station. The only argument you brought up is some mythical hidden legion of praetorians. Fact of the matter is we know nothing of the Reapers. To quote Lao, knowing your enemy allows you to prevail. Having the Collector base destroyed is the worst tactical decision ever made. What about the Reaper? If you didn't study the Reaper you wouldn't have the IFF, you wouldn't even be able to defeat the collectors.

[Undertone]

thurmanator692 wrote...

Undertone wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

No, we believe that keeping the base is detrimental to our chances of survival, for various reasons. It's fine if you don't agree with the logic, but to say that none of it is based on any kind of logic is willful blindness.

What are those reasons then  All I hear is reasons, reasons, reasons. So enlighten me finally then with the logic behind destroying the base.  

Heeyy-ooo! i guess mine doesnt necesarily count as in game logic lol, but my reason for nuking it is just as viable as you not doing so

What the Alliance, Council think is irrelevant. If you abided by what they thought you wouldn't have stopped Saren in ME1 and stayed grounded = anihilation. Thus your reasons are also illogical.

Xilizhra - what will happen in ME3 my friend is that Paragons will save the universe, have bunnies and flowers, every species will deem him/her a hero, have a bunch of blue babes and the Reapers lost without any casualties and team mates dead. Thanks to the magical plot armor <3

[Undertone]

Let me quote Mr. Awesome (Garrus):

- Typical alliance attitude. You fail to see the bigger picture.

Which one is worse - human dominance or extinction? (Why people would consider human dominance something bad is also beyond me but...at least there you have logical reasons for balance of power)

I have not played Overlord or LotSB so I can't comment on them. Cerberus has fail experiments but it also brings you to life. You would be dead if it wasn't for Cerberus - dead, finito, non existe, dust, nothing, nihil. And Normandy 2 and a bunch of other stuff. Cerberus is the only one willing to fight.

Modifié par Undertone, 08 décembre 2010 - 03:36 .

[ViktorReznov]

Undertone wrote...

Actually I think it's because there hardly is a logical reason to destroy the base (other then cool explosion cinematic ) so they tried to salvage the situation.

Of course I am open to criticism - name me at least one and I'll agree that destroying the station isn't completely retarded.

I don't think anyone sane would have a reason to destroy an entire Collector base. The sheer technological gap between Collectors and the rest of the galaxy would make its capture not only logical, but also paramount. I mean, look at the Collectors' involvement with the Reapers, and their integration with Reaper tech... The fields of bio-engineering and genetics alone would advance at warp speed.

Blowing it up just to see the explosion would be an incredibly foolish act on behalf of anyone, former-Spectre-saviour-of-the-Universe or not. Although I was not very keen of handing it over to the Illusive Man - how much do we REALLY know about him? And the incident with the "derelict" Collector ship put up a big question sign for me.

And there's one more thing that's weighing in heavily. Soner or later, news of a ship going through the Omega 4 relay and returning will surface. When it will turn out that Shepard worked with Cerberus and made it such that the only human-controlled Collector structure is an asset of a rogue paramilitary corporation with a very shady past, things will get ugly.
If the Illusive Man leaks any info on the extranet, then the Systems Alliance will look like gutless, lazy, and incapable in the eyes of many people (a privately-funded paramilitary group manages to accomplish what the most notable and powerful military organization of the Council races has been constantly delaying and shoving under the carpet? Public trust and respect will drop below sea level...)

It's the proverbial mass of excrement that is steadily approaching the whirring blades of a galaxy-wide fan.
Not even the stars in Ambassador Udina's derriere will outshine that.

For one, Shepard will be declared a backstabbing rogue. Secondly, how will Systems Alliance react? When such technology is at stake, I don't see why they wouldn't send a few flotillas through Omega 4 to try and assume control of the base. Cerberus fires back, ships blow up, we have war.

Well, I hope Mister "I'm So Cool, Look at My Enigmatic, Straight Face"  will use that base for good - he'd better do, I lost Jack in order to fetch him his toy.

Modifié par ViktorReznov, 08 décembre 2010 - 04:06 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Undertone wrote...

If there were millions of praetorians don't you think it would be logical if the Collector general used them against Shepard and co. ?

When was the last time Harbinger did anything logical?  He's pretty herp derp as far as Reapers go.  Nonetheless, deader is better.  Nuking it from orbit has always been the only way to be sure.

Technology is ambiguous. For every argument how technology that is mightier to control - you have Thanix cannon, Lazarus project (without which our dear Shepard wouldn't live) etc.

The Thanix cannon wasn't alive.  Argument invalid.

I would rather have human dominance (if the TIM uses it "for the wrong reasons") then utter annihilation.

And I prefer neither.  Don't act like it's a binary decision.

The Rachni race working out - paragon plot armor, just as every other decision in the game.

So I gamed the system.  U mad?

Saving the Council - again paragon plot armor. In the context of time we have no idea for how long Vigil data will work. Taken care of Sovereign is a priority. The Geth can fight the rest, while humanity takes it out. Then we can help them take care of the Geth. If we don't we have Sovereign letting the Reapers come in = annihilation. That didn't happen why? Cause of plot armor.

I just explained why it was a smarter tactical decision to bring the fleet in early.  Waiting for the Citadel arms to open while the geth are tearing up potential allies is just stupid.  Speedy bombardment = BAM!  Geth gone, everyone gets a clear shot at Sov.  Leave the geth alone, and you'll be getting shot at from all sides while you attack Sovereign.

Plot armor?  No.  Battle tactics.  Y'all renegades actin' like the Council's the only thing out there.

At any rate I fail to see how these are relevant to the station. The only argument you brought up is some mythical hidden legion of praetorians. Fact of the matter is we know nothing of the Reapers. To quote Lao, knowing your enemy allows you to prevail. Having the Collector base destroyed is the worst tactical decision ever made. What about the Reaper? If you didn't study the Reaper you wouldn't have the IFF, you wouldn't even be able to defeat the collectors.

A mythical hidden legion of praetorians is more likely than Cerberus not screwing up the base somehow.  They couldn't even find and remove the Reaper IFF fast enough to not get indoctrinated.  Yes, the IFF was important, but the operation was handled horribly, hence why Cerberus + Collecter Base = bad idea.  Really, can these guys accomplish anything without getting people killed?  In under four billion credits?  TIM and his fellows are a damn jinx.  Shepard's about the only thing they did right, and even that seemed like a waste of resources.  "You're a symbol."  Really, TIM?  That's it?  Again, historical precedent for the win.

Also, I'd say Shep knows plenty about the Reapers, having killed three of them.  We know their weak points, their weapons, their methods, how indoctrination works, etc.  That gives us enough to defeat them, provided we pool our resources and don't do anything stupid.  Fact is, no one will know whether keeping or blowing the base was a good idea until ME3.

I have a feeling that you'll be able to win either way.