8541 réponses à ce sujet

[drwells123]

Robhuzz wrote...

The council doesn't really care about the methods Spectres employ, that's why they're above the law. I don't see the council condoning Shepard's actions because Vasir was 'simply doing her job' in the council's eyes. No, if it comes to a confrontation between the council and Shepard about Vasir's death, we need a renegade option adressing the Turian Councillor:

"Ahh yes Tela Vasir, the Council Spectre alledgedly killed by...me. I have dismissed that claim"

Again, the Council will most likely take Vasir's side so it's best to just deny everything. Shepard is definately not going to involve Liara in this, no matter what the council says.
I agree to an earlier (or was it later) post about Vasir still being alive. She would've been a usefull ally, but so would Nihlus or for that matter, any other spectre...

The Councilors are politicians. Call al-Jilani up and tell her a Spectre blew up a building full of civilians and took some kid's mother hostage. After that gets all over the extranet the Council will be saying: "Ah yes, 'Tela Vasir', the supposed Council Spectre. We have dismissed that claim."

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

The council is going to do some sort of action against Shepard for killing Vasir. Her death is the perfect excuse to take Shepard out or bring him in for questioning.

TIM knows about Liara as the shadow broker. This could cause trouble in the future wether or not you destroyed the base. But I think TIM is too busy fighting the Reapers and re-building Cerberus. And if you sabed the base, TIM might be on slightly better terms with Shepard, and be more inclined to co-operate.

[jlb524]

drwells123 wrote...

Also, the Retribution novel (set after ME2) suggests that Cerberus is crippled in a multi-pronged Alliance attack. If that's canon, Liara might now be considerably more powerful than TIM, and he might be too busy rebuilding Cerberus for several years to want to take her on.

Just random thoughts on the subject.

That novel will definitely be canon.  I actually think the Shadow Broker was more powerful than Cerberus even before the events of Retribution.  Perhaps after Liara took over, the 'Shadow Broker' was at a disadvantage for a short period of time due to the change of leadership and Liara needing time to learn what was necessary to run the network.  I assume the learning curve wasn't too bad, given this is Liara we are talking about here.

[Tancho]

Robhuzz wrote...

Tancho wrote...

Obviously, the death of a Specter is going to need to be answered, but I have trouble seeing Shepard saying, "The jigs up! Liara's the Shadow Broker!"

All she would need to do is prove that Vasir bombed the building. It's less about the Shadow Broker and more about Vasir being crooked. Of course, I'm sure there may be multiple options, allowing you to completely spill the beans, but that seems a bit drastic.

And, I wasn't challenging anything you said, @Fiery Phoenix, I was just pointing out the fact that the LotSB, save the events on Illium, are probably unknown to the rest of the galaxy.

We don't hafta get feisty. :-3

The council doesn't really care about the methods Spectres employ, that's why they're above the law. I don't see the council condoning Shepard's actions because Vasir was 'simply doing her job' in the council's eyes. No, if it comes to a confrontation between the council and Shepard about Vasir's death, we need a renegade option adressing the Turian Councillor:

"Ahh yes Tela Vasir, the Council Spectre alledgedly killed by...me. I have dismissed that claim"

Again, the Council will most likely take Vasir's side so it's best to just deny everything. Shepard is definately not going to involve Liara in this, no matter what the council says.
I agree to an earlier (or was it later) post about Vasir still being alive. She would've been a usefull ally, but so would Nihlus or for that matter, any other spectre...

Forgetting Saren? Haha. 

He killed a fellow specter and several colonists. Just because Vasir said that the Council doesn't care doesn't mean it's true. They may look the other way, but if it's made public, they'll say something. And, no one said that Vasir was ordered to Illium by the Council. She was ordered there by the SB. So, it's really just a Saren situation all over again.

[Master Shiori]

jlb524 wrote...

drwells123 wrote...

Also, the Retribution novel (set after ME2) suggests that Cerberus is crippled in a multi-pronged Alliance attack. If that's canon, Liara might now be considerably more powerful than TIM, and he might be too busy rebuilding Cerberus for several years to want to take her on.

Just random thoughts on the subject.

That novel will definitely be canon.  I actually think the Shadow Broker was more powerful than Cerberus even before the events of Retribution.  Perhaps after Liara took over, the 'Shadow Broker' was at a disadvantage for a short period of time due to the change of leadership and Liara needing time to learn what was necessary to run the network.  I assume the learning curve wasn't too bad, given this is Liara we are talking about here.

I'm actually worried about how Cerberus will look at the Liara becoming the new SB and giving Shepard access to alternative information and resources. For all we know, if Shepard destroyed the Collector Base and cut ties with Cerberus, Illusive Man might decide to take out Liara and the Shadow Broker network entirely or remove Liara and merge the network with Cerberus.
We know from the LotSB mission report that the Illusive Man knows who the Shadow Broker agents within Cerberus are and has ordered them removed. He also knows where the Shadow Borker's ship is located and can choose to destroy it, and Liara, if he thinks they're interfering with his plans for humanity and Shepard.

I fully expect there to be some kind of showdown between Cerberus and Shepard (backed by Liara) in ME3.

[Robhuzz]

Forgetting Saren? Haha. 

He killed a fellow specter and several colonists. Just because Vasir said that the Council doesn't care doesn't mean it's true. They may look the other way, but if it's made public, they'll say something. And, no one said that Vasir was ordered to Illium by the Council. She was ordered there by the SB. So, it's really just a Saren situation all over again.

 I was typing that part with Saren in mind actually. The council didn't really care much what Saren did, only when it became apparent he led (well Sovereign led them through Saren obviously) did the council revoke his spectre status. If they hadn't it would've caused an incident with the humans because that evidence was (supposedly) irrefutable. The council doesn't look into Spectre activity, that's why I said the council would probably take Vasir's side upon questioning Shepard about her death. Upon using the 'she bombed an entire building full of innocents' argument, the council would probably just state she was 'just doing her job' and 'did what was necessary'. But that might just be me, I despise the council. (as you probably figured by now)

Anyways, we're heading off topic here. Let's just focus on the 2nd greatest character in all of Mass Effect now.

Modifié par Robhuzz, 21 janvier 2011 - 04:37 .

[jlb524]

Tancho wrote...

Forgetting Saren? Haha. 

He killed a fellow specter and several colonists. Just because Vasir said that the Council doesn't care doesn't mean it's true. They may look the other way, but if it's made public, they'll say something. And, no one said that Vasir was ordered to Illium by the Council. She was ordered there by the SB. So, it's really just a Saren situation all over again.

I think the difference is that Saren was one of the Council's top agents (and they gave him the benefit of the doubt for Nihlus).  Shepard, on the other hand, currently has a troubled relationship with them, given her ties to Cerberus, and I doubt they would do the same for her....considering that Vasir was also one of their top agents I think they'd be very interested in the Cerberus affiliated Spectre that killed her.

[Robhuzz]

^Thanks jlb... that too. When it's another spectre against Shepard... the council will just take the other spectre's side...

[Tancho]

I hate the council too, no worries, ha. But, I still think it's the same as Saren. They didn't believe in the Reapers and I don't think it had anything to do with him lying. Had Shepard brought evidence to the first trial, I'm sure he would have had his specter status revoked. The irrefutable evidence was that he had attacked Eden Prime, not that he lied.



While I'm sure they can pull the 'Vasir was doing her job', especially after they told Shepard that sometimes you have to make sacrifices, I don't think they're that stupid. Every security camera in Azure caught her murdering innocent people for no reason and calling in SB back ups to kill Shepard.



My Shep has a troubled relationship with the Council, too, and so I can see them being less inclined to believe 'her word'. I'm just saying that evidence wise, it's all against Vasir. If it only took a short little recording saying 'Eden Prime was a huge victory!' to revoke their best specter, I'm sure it wouldn't take much to prove Vasir guilty.

[Tancho]

Quick added note: The 'she was doing her job' thing would only apply, IMO, to her doing a job for the Council. I don't think she was there on Council orders, though - the transmission that Liara listens to proves that the SB sent Vasir. So, I think if she's killing innocent people outside of a Council Mission, it's more of the whole 'rogue specter', like...Saren.

[jlb524]

Tancho wrote...

While I'm sure they can pull the 'Vasir was doing her job', especially after they told Shepard that sometimes you have to make sacrifices, I don't think they're that stupid. Every security camera in Azure caught her murdering innocent people for no reason and calling in SB back ups to kill Shepard.

That's true. 

She also blew up the Dracon Trade Center, though Shepard would have to prove that.

[Fiery Phoenix]

You guys are making me too excited for a continuation to the story.

[Tancho]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

You guys are making me too excited for a continuation to the story.

 We gotta do something in the meantime.

Or I will go craaazzy. 

[Captain Iglo]

jlb524 wrote...

Tancho wrote...

While I'm sure they can pull the 'Vasir was doing her job', especially after they told Shepard that sometimes you have to make sacrifices, I don't think they're that stupid. Every security camera in Azure caught her murdering innocent people for no reason and calling in SB back ups to kill Shepard.

That's true. 

She also blew up the Dracon Trade Center, though Shepard would have to prove that.

Dont forget that Sheps lover is the most powerful information Broker in the Galaxy.
Im sure Liara can find, create, forge or delete some evidence easily now.

[TheMarshal]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Regarding the Illusive Man's knowledge of Liara's new role as the Shadow
Broker, I'm not as concerned as most people. Similar to the Cold War
between the United States and the Soviet Union in the 20th century, I
think that a situation of deterrence via mutually assured destruction
exists between Cerberus and the Shadow Broker. Both are powerful
organisations, and if one were to attack the other, it is likely that
both would be destroyed. As a result, the status quo is maintained. TIM
would never attempt to compromise Liara, as he knows that her reprisal
could cripple Cerberus.

This makes me feel a little better.  If I were Shepard, I wouldn't want anyone knowing where Liara was...

Also, is Retribution out yet? I keep seeing images from it, but I wasn't sure if it was still "coming soon" or already here.

Modifié par TheMarshal, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:14 .

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

It's out already.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...
I think you might be confused. Retribution is the novel that was released a few months ago, whereas Evolution is the ongoing TIM comic, of which its first issue was recently released.

On a somewhat related note, would it not be cool to have a character comment on the Shadow Broker's altered business practices in future supplementary material? It would be an interesting acknowledgement of the fact that Liara is attempting to transform the network into something more benevolent.

Isn't Liara still doing the same tricks like the old SB (minus toture Feron of course! )? She only changed the prioties so she can help combat the Reapers.

[TheMarshal]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

TheMarshal wrote...
This makes me feel a little better.  If I were Shepard, I wouldn't want anyone knowing where Liara was...

Also, is Retribution out yet? I keep seeing images from it, but I wasn't sure if it was still "coming soon" or already here.

I think you might be confused. Retribution is the novel that was released a few months ago, whereas Evolution is the ongoing TIM comic, of which its first issue was recently released.

On a somewhat related note, would it not be cool to have a character comment on the Shadow Broker's altered business practices in future supplementary material? It would be an interesting acknowledgement of the fact that Liara is attempting to transform the network into something more benevolent.

Ah, you're right.  I was getting those confused.

I would be interested in seeing what sort of changes she's making to the Shadow Broker's network.  In ME1, Anderson seemed to imply that the Shadow Broker was mostly just interested in maintaining the balance of power, never letting one side get too far ahead of the other.  Obviously with Vasir and selling Shepard's body to the Collector's, etc., we see that it is used for more sinister purposes, but they're not delved into in the games.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

LesEnfantsTerribles wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...
Isn't Liara still doing the same tricks like the old SB (minus toture Feron of course! )? She only changed the prioties so she can help combat the Reapers.

No, she says that she intends to turn the operation into "something better." Additionally, a certain line of dialogue in Redemption heavily implies that she views the information trade as something that can be used to help people, and that one's motivation does not necessarily have to be credits.

The process will be long and gradual, and it may take a significant amount of time to reform it, but she believes that it can be used for the power of good.

I think you misunderstood me. Her endgoals might be diffrent (doing good) compared to the old SB who was just looking out for himself. But the ways she does this is still the same (blackmailing, bribery etc). Of course, it's possible that when it comes to small things, say someone looking for information regarding lost relatives, she might give it for free or something.

"EDIT"

I could imagine that she would be far less inclined to sell information to Batarian slavers adn the like.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 21 janvier 2011 - 06:36 .

[AlexMBrennan]

There appears to be an alternative, unused version of Liara's taking over speech @2:55 here. We'll have to wait and see if they do anything with in ME3.



On a related note, I don't think that a good person can run an ultimately evil organisation like the SB network but we've had that discussion before so I won't repeat it here.