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[PMC65]

centauri2002 wrote...

This might seem a bit random but I've been pondering something. After Liara joins the crew, it's clear she doesn't understand human humour. However, by the time LotSB rolls around, she seems to respond to some of it. I'm referring to her "Oh, is it?" line here. My question is: How long do you think it would take her to become accustomed to it? Does she understand it fully two years down the line? When do you think she'll be able to join in the banter?

I have my own ideas but I'd like to see what others think.

Humour among humans is not one type. Joker is sarcastic, the Unknown Comic would be corny, Bill Cosby is observational and so on ... I think that she has started to understand Shepard. Shepard shows a teasing side with her and that allows her to tease (flirt) back.

I, and therefore just an opinion, feel that Liara is not comfortable around people, especially humans. She retreated to an Asari world where even there as a pureblood and daughter of a perceived traitor she would be a little guarded. She understands that those who do befriend her are not genuine as she tells Shepard .... I just chalked it down to her and Shepard's relationship.

I still wonder why she and her mother had not spoken in years. Was that her teenage rebellion stage? Is it just as a result that they live so long that a few years is a few weeks to them and therefore means nothing? My personal belief is that when her mother decided to try and change Saren she informed her daughter of her plan. She would also have given her strict instructions that if she (liara) were ever approached reagrding her mother to deny any knowledge. Benezia would have wanted to protect her daughter.

I loved when Shepard tells Ash that Liara doesn't lie or at least not often and Ash wasn't fooled. She saw through the "little girl" act and saw the "woman" and therefore the potential threat. Yes Shepard ... Liara does know how to lie (see Noveria with the Asari scientist exchange). That is why I like Liara, I think there are layers there behind her "wall".

[Centauri2002]

PMC65 wrote...

Humour among humans is not one type. Joker is sarcastic, the Unknown Comic would be corny, Bill Cosby is observational and so on ... I think that she has started to understand Shepard. Shepard shows a teasing side with her and that allows her to tease (flirt) back.

I, and therefore just an opinion, feel that Liara is not comfortable around people, especially humans. She retreated to an Asari world where even there as a pureblood and daughter of a perceived traitor she would be a little guarded. She understands that those who do befriend her are not genuine as she tells Shepard .... I just chalked it down to her and Shepard's relationship.

I still wonder why she and her mother had not spoken in years. Was that her teenage rebellion stage? Is it just as a result that they live so long that a few years is a few weeks to them and therefore means nothing? My personal belief is that when her mother decided to try and change Saren she informed her daughter of her plan. She would also have given her strict instructions that if she (liara) were ever approached reagrding her mother to deny any knowledge. Benezia would have wanted to protect her daughter.

I loved when Shepard tells Ash that Liara doesn't lie or at least not often and Ash wasn't fooled. She saw through the "little girl" act and saw the "woman" and therefore the potential threat. Yes Shepard ... Liara does know how to lie (see Noveria with the Asari scientist exchange). That is why I like Liara, I think there are layers there behind her "wall".

I'm referring to all kinds of human humour. Obviously, individual humans don't always stick to one kind of humour. Different situations call for different approaches. I see Shepard as being mostly teasing, but using sarcasm as well. Sarcasm isn't understood well amongst a lot of humans so I'm not sure how much of a chance Liara has there. 

[PMC65]

centauri2002 wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Humour among humans is not one type. Joker is sarcastic, the Unknown Comic would be corny, Bill Cosby is observational and so on ... I think that she has started to understand Shepard. Shepard shows a teasing side with her and that allows her to tease (flirt) back.

I, and therefore just an opinion, feel that Liara is not comfortable around people, especially humans. She retreated to an Asari world where even there as a pureblood and daughter of a perceived traitor she would be a little guarded. She understands that those who do befriend her are not genuine as she tells Shepard .... I just chalked it down to her and Shepard's relationship.

I'm referring to all kinds of human humour. Obviously, individual humans don't always stick to one kind of humour. Different situations call for different approaches. I see Shepard as being mostly teasing, but using sarcasm as well. Sarcasm isn't understood well amongst a lot of humans so I'm not sure how much of a chance Liara has there. 

So true. But then, would Shepard get the Asari humour (whatever that is)? He/she sure doesn't get the Krogan humour so it would be interesting.

[Robhuzz]

centauri2002 wrote...

PMC65 wrote...

Humour among humans is not one type. Joker is sarcastic, the Unknown Comic would be corny, Bill Cosby is observational and so on ... I think that she has started to understand Shepard. Shepard shows a teasing side with her and that allows her to tease (flirt) back.

I, and therefore just an opinion, feel that Liara is not comfortable around people, especially humans. She retreated to an Asari world where even there as a pureblood and daughter of a perceived traitor she would be a little guarded. She understands that those who do befriend her are not genuine as she tells Shepard .... I just chalked it down to her and Shepard's relationship.

I still wonder why she and her mother had not spoken in years. Was that her teenage rebellion stage? Is it just as a result that they live so long that a few years is a few weeks to them and therefore means nothing? My personal belief is that when her mother decided to try and change Saren she informed her daughter of her plan. She would also have given her strict instructions that if she (liara) were ever approached reagrding her mother to deny any knowledge. Benezia would have wanted to protect her daughter.

I loved when Shepard tells Ash that Liara doesn't lie or at least not often and Ash wasn't fooled. She saw through the "little girl" act and saw the "woman" and therefore the potential threat. Yes Shepard ... Liara does know how to lie (see Noveria with the Asari scientist exchange). That is why I like Liara, I think there are layers there behind her "wall".

I'm referring to all kinds of human humour. Obviously, individual humans don't always stick to one kind of humour. Different situations call for different approaches. I see Shepard as being mostly teasing, but using sarcasm as well. Sarcasm isn't understood well amongst a lot of humans so I'm not sure how much of a chance Liara has there. 

Apparently joking isn't understood amongst the asari either as Liara didn't get the 'dissecting in a lab' joke. As for sarcasm... I think Shepard and Liara are close enough by now that Liara can pretty much sense when Shepard is or is not being serious, sarcasm should be easy to recognize this way.

I wonder if we'll ever get to hear some classic asari jokes. Haven't heard anything funny coming from an asari. Well, apart from aetheyta (did I spell it correctly?) and the 'DAMN that's a hell of a sniper rifle' from a wannabee eclipse merc, although that last one probably wasn't meant funny by her.

[JiGsAw2453]

Just started the second chapter of my FanFic!

[jlb524]

centauri2002 wrote...

I'm referring to all kinds of human humour. Obviously, individual humans don't always stick to one kind of humour. Different situations call for different approaches. I see Shepard as being mostly teasing, but using sarcasm as well. Sarcasm isn't understood well amongst a lot of humans so I'm not sure how much of a chance Liara has there. 

It seems to me Liara has a dry sense of humor.   There's no indication that the asari have their own special type of humor that is also not a type we humans possess.

Her initial problems with "human humor" may just be due to feelings of discomfort and unease at being in a new and alien social setting.

[Centauri2002]

jlb524 wrote...

It seems to me Liara has a dry sense of humor.   There's no indication that the asari have their own special type of humor that is also not a type we humans possess.

Her initial problems with "human humor" may just be due to feelings of discomfort and unease at being in a new and alien social setting.

If asari do have a specific type of humour, we haven't seen it yet. I would have expected to have seen it by now if they did. They seem to be quite adaptive as a race though so I don't see any problem with them taking on humour from other races.

Hmm, yes, I think that pretty much sums up Liara's situation as a whole. Most of what happens to her is fairly new so it'll just take her time to adjust. She'll likely adapt to Shepard's sense of humour quite quickly, I imagine. The question is, will she have picked up anything new in that two year interim to surprsise Shepard with. It's logical she would have. Maybe we'll get to see that in ME3.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

centauri2002 wrote...
 The question is, will she have picked up anything new in that two year interim to surprsise Shepard with. It's logical she would have. Maybe we'll get to see that in ME3.

Bioware did claim that while ME3 will be darker, there will also be more humorous/lighthearted moments. So we might just see Liara do or say something funny.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 15 avril 2011 - 09:24 .

[Sylvianus]

I hope we'll have dialogue with Liara like in the Shadowbroker, when we follow the spectre. It was funny !

Modifié par Sylvianus, 15 avril 2011 - 11:00 .

[emmanuelsieyes]

centauri2002 wrote...

Andoth wrote...


Agreed.  She could atleast be able to relate to Shepard 's personality, and maybe some of the original Normandy crew, just by being around them.  It's easy to find the little nuances in a person's personality by spending a little time with them, and they had months together.

As far as the flirty side, after the trip to Ilos, I assume (in my headcanon) that they spent more time together, rooming together most nights as well.  During that time, they probably were able to discuss their likes/dislikes and deepen the bond between them.  With their growing relationship comes the playful banter and nicknames, etc....

Semi-related: Just finished 14 pages (handwritten) yesterday. We've cut down the door during her first dig. I figure another 14 or so and I'll be ready to start editing (then posting) part one of at least three. Potentially four or five, depending on how interesting I can make the interplay with the rest of academia.

 She may not be the best at a flirty retort with some people, but I'm guessing that she knows how to get to Shepard.

Apparently they only had a month together, but I think that's long enough. And I like the thought that she's not become good at flirting, that she just knows how to press Shepard's buttons. Hadn't thought of it like that before. :3

Actually there's a discussion I've been wanting to have on this thread. And that's about Liara's flaws. We're always singing her praises but, like any good character, she has faults. 

The one that pops into my head first and foremost is her tendency to focus completely on one thing. This can be seen as both a good and a bad thing though. The first example of this is her obsession with the Protheans. Later, she turns that kind of behaviour on the Shadow Broker. I wonder if this will be a pattern she continues to repeat in her life. 

Liara's obsession is more than just a super-focus. She is also incredibly stubborn.

There was one line that really stuck with me during the debrief, right after Therum.

'I cannot prove it [her theory that the Prothean extinction has happened before], but I know I am right'

Part of it is because Liara is relatively very young. She's used to people ignoring her because of age. So she has to really bang on her ideas to get them out there, which has manifested itself as this hyper-focus. Once you invest that kind of energy into something, it's hard to see someone else's viewpoint. Liara's so invested in her ideas that she's not willing to see eye-to-eye with anyone else.

Modifié par emmanuelsieyes, 16 avril 2011 - 12:10 .

[PMC65]

Sylvianus wrote...

I hope we'll have dialogue with Liara like in the Shadowbroker, when we follow the spectre. It was funny !

She was the straight man to Shepard's bumbling which was great!

[emmanuelsieyes]

Semi-related to Liara's flaw discussion - I finished page 14 (handwritten) of my backstory fic. I think there will be about 14 or so more pages in Part I (there will be four to five parts total). I'm not sure about the fifth part, it's mainly a matter how how interesting the 'dealing with academia' plotline works out.

[JiGsAw2453]

PMC65 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I hope we'll have dialogue with Liara like in the Shadowbroker, when we follow the spectre. It was funny !

She was the straight man to Shepard's bumbling which was great!

I loved that! It was so funny. it was nice to see them act like a "married couple". :L

[PMC65]

In thinking more on this ....

"I still wonder why she and her mother had not spoken in years. Was that her teenage rebellion stage? Is it just as a result that they live so long that a few years is a few weeks to them and therefore means nothing? My personal belief is that when her mother decided to try and change Saren she informed her daughter of her plan. She would also have given her strict instructions that if she (liara) were ever approached reagrding her mother to deny any knowledge. Benezia would have wanted to protect her daughter."

If you take Liara to Noveria and her mother says "What have you told him/her Liara?" That would make that exchange quite interesting. Liara's response would seem more as a plea for instructions then mere response. "What should I tell him/her?" She is hoping that her "mother" will respond but no such luck. Since the Matriarch is so powerful it never seems possible that Shepard could beat her unless Liara was there. That somehow Benezia holds back her own abilities with what is left of her for the sake of her daughter. When I don't take Liara the defeat seems almost unreal ... Does that make sense? Why wouldn't she participate in the fight then?

[azarhal]

emmanuelsieyes wrote...

Liara's obsession is more than just a super-focus. She is also incredibly stubborn.

I prefer to call her goal-focused or goal driven. She select a goal and stick to it no matter what (stubborness). She's like the people who always strive for perfection, they won't back down until they acheived it. She's also independent (she actually complain about Shepard having to help again her in LotSB), opportunist (SB network, reviving Shepard) and a workalcoholic (falling asleep in front for the SB console). All that with an heavy dose of empathy (and love).

Liara is also totally in the "Chaotic Good" spectrum.

[Centauri2002]

I'm not quite sure Liara fits the Chaotic Good alignment. In some regards she does, in others she doesn't. The lovable rogue archetype is the usual Chaotic Good character; someone who chooses to do the right thing but doesn't agree with societal laws. That kind of thing. That's not to say that there is no other interpretation for this alignment but that's just the norm, is all. Liara doesn't have anything against the law, I don't think. Although, by LotSB, she's certainly broken a fair number. It's also quite rare for a Chaotic Good character so sacrifice other people for a goal, however just it might be (even though they're willing to sacrifice themselves) and Liara's shown she can do that as well. Hmm, it's a toughy.

Modifié par centauri2002, 16 avril 2011 - 01:53 .

[emmanuelsieyes]

Liara is neutral good in ME1, though we don't really have much to base that on. However, she doesn't seem to have any problems with authority.

After ME1, she's chaotic neutral. She cares about Shepard, however, she is willing to kill people to maintain stability. As she said, she put Sekat in danger, and she'd do it again. Ultimately, she has a purpose (stopping the Reapers), however, she isn't going to be picking straight Paragon options - the example being Sekat.

[PMC65]

Fiddles_stix wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

This might seem a bit random but I've been pondering something. After Liara joins the crew, it's clear she doesn't understand human humour. However, by the time LotSB rolls around, she seems to respond to some of it. I'm referring to her "Oh, is it?" line here. My question is: How long do you think it would take her to become accustomed to it? Does she understand it fully two years down the line? When do you think she'll be able to join in the banter?

I have my own ideas but I'd like to see what others think.

She has a good grasp of irony; reusing her mother's line and in LotSB when cracking the door "I don't know how long it will take I've never broken into the Shadow Broker's base before... at least not this one" so sarcasm shouldn't be an issue. If there was a type of humour she didn't get I'd say it would be the 'silly' humour anything completely irreverent and disconnected from her experience, but she's not alone in that and Shep would definitely help with that.

Her flaws... SHE'S PERFECT! Or rather what imperfections she has such as occasional holding back and possible unwillingness to deal with emotional issues in a relatable "human" way are used to define her uniqueness.

I don't think that she meant to be funny ... which made it funny. There are people who are so analytical that humor is their hurdle. Shepard playfully teases Liara and Liara forces Shepard to be honest. They each pull the other in areas that are not comfortable. I hope that they continue this relationship dialogue in ME3.

[Centauri2002]

PMC65 wrote...

I don't think that she meant to be funny ... which made it funny. There are people who are so analytical that humor is their hurdle. Shepard playfully teases Liara and Liara forces Shepard to be honest. They each pull the other in areas that are not comfortable. I hope that they continue this relationship dialogue in ME3.

Excellently put. This is a defining factor in their relationship and I'll be disappointed if it isn't continued. 

[azarhal]

emmanuelsieyes wrote...

After ME1, she's chaotic neutral. She cares about Shepard, however, she is willing to kill people to maintain stability. As she said, she put Sekat in danger, and she'd do it again. Ultimately, she has a purpose (stopping the Reapers), however, she isn't going to be picking straight Paragon options - the example being Sekat.

Stability? I don't think that's the word you wanted to use...

She went against the ShadowBroker and once he was defeated decided to reform is network for "good". Just that put her out of the neutral and evil aligment. Disregarding the laws, put her out of the lawful ones.  And the only thing she didn't do with Sekat is tell him the data was about the ShadowBroker. Not knowing isn't what killed him in the end. Also, straight Paragon is Lawful Good.

You could say that Liara skirmed Chaotic Neutral in LotSB despite doing it for "justice", but as soon as she knew she could turn the mission into a rescue she was back to Chaotic Good.

PMC65 wrote...

I don't think that she meant to be funny
... which made it funny. There are people who are so analytical that
humor is their hurdle. Shepard playfully teases Liara and Liara forces
Shepard to be honest. They each pull the other in areas that are not
comfortable. I hope that they continue this relationship dialogue in
ME3.

Dry humor. Impossible to say if she's serious or not. And if it's like me, probably both at the same time.

[emmanuelsieyes]

azarhal wrote...

emmanuelsieyes wrote...

After ME1, she's chaotic neutral. She cares about Shepard, however, she is willing to kill people to maintain stability. As she said, she put Sekat in danger, and she'd do it again. Ultimately, she has a purpose (stopping the Reapers), however, she isn't going to be picking straight Paragon options - the example being Sekat.

Stability? I don't think that's the word you wanted to use...

She went against the ShadowBroker and once he was defeated decided to reform is network for "good". Just that put her out of the neutral and evil aligment. Disregarding the laws, put her out of the lawful ones.  And the only thing she didn't do with Sekat is tell him the data was about the ShadowBroker. Not knowing isn't what killed him in the end. Also, straight Paragon is Lawful Good.

You could say that Liara skirmed Chaotic Neutral in LotSB despite doing it for "justice", but as soon as she knew she could turn the mission into a rescue she was back to Chaotic Good.

PMC65 wrote...

I don't think that she meant to be funny
... which made it funny. There are people who are so analytical that
humor is their hurdle. Shepard playfully teases Liara and Liara forces
Shepard to be honest. They each pull the other in areas that are not
comfortable. I hope that they continue this relationship dialogue in
ME3.

Dry humor. Impossible to say if she's serious or not. And if it's like me, probably both at the same time.

Her ultimate goal is to use the network for good. However, the shadow broker has many enemies. Look at Aria T'Loak's dossier - there's a transcript with a captured SB informant. Liara is going to use the network to fight the Reapers - but she can't be chaotic good and maintain that network. 

Liara was willing to get people killed to take down the original Shadow Broker. Now, she's on the other side of the fence. The Shadow Broker has a lot of intelligence - intelligence that needs to be protected. As Liara says, 'give me ten minutes and I can start a war'. Can you imagine what would happen if any of her new intel leaked out? Especially with an imminent Reaper invasion? 

The Shadow Broker can't just be captured - the release of that intelligence would disrupt the galactic balance of power. The SB's ship either has to be destroyed, once and for all, or it has to continue on as normal. The Shadow Broker also needs money to continue the operation - to provide bribes and so forth. That money is coming out of the standard information trade that Liara has been working for the past two years. Industrial espionage, bribery, etc. Liara is working for a greater good, however, she's pretty grey (especially after LotSB).

[Centauri2002]

I'd agree with Liara being fairly "grey". This is why I wouldn't place her in the Chaotic Good alignment, at least not fully. There's several pieces of evidence that show her as more of a neutral. Being neutral isn't being devoid of motivation towards good and bad, it's generally reserved for people who focus on themselves.

Not that I'm saying Liara is selfish, because she's not, but she has done a number of selfish things. One, it might be possible to argue that Liara reclaimed Shepard's body for the sake of the galaxy but she admitted herself that she did it because she couldn't let go. She wanted very badly to have Shepard back and that was her only hope. Her entire hunt for the Shadow Broker was about revenge. That's one of the most selfish motivations out there. Yes, a lot of good could come from ending his reign, but that wasn't the defining reason behind her focus. This last example can probably go either way, but Liara doesn't take over the network for the greater good (although I can see an argument for it as well) but because she wants to help Shepard. She admitted earlier in LotSB that she's always relying on Shepard for help and I think she desperately wants to be the one assisting Shepard instead. The only way she feels she can do that is with the power of the SB.

So, I'd say she's somewhere in between Chaotic Good and Neutral.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I would guess that Liara is neutral-good in ME1. She is almsot always the one to vote for the paragon (and therefor, most merciful or morally right) option, we never really got her stance on authority but I do not think she had a problem with them. Therefor, Neutral-good.

In ME2 pre-LOTSB? I am not sure. chaotic-neutral? She wished to bring down the SB, but one of her chief motivations was vengeance (as mentioned above). She also led her own information-network and she had no problem using less "clean" methods. An example being willing to assasinate all the possible Observer suspects.

Post-LOTSB? Chaotic-good. She wants to help and assist Shepard in his fight against the Reapers. But the way she does it is by maintaining an network that is seen as shady and illegal by most of society (who also employs less clean methods). Also note that she desires to turn the SB network into a force of good.