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[Spectreshadow]

I feel pretty confident that if you romanced Liara in 1, didn't cheat in 2 and kept the romance going in LotSB you will pretty much shape Liaras character in 3.

[Aedan_Cousland]

jlb524 wrote...

I tend to think of Liara as always being Paragade, it's just that we never got to really see the 'gade' side in ME1 and then it came out guns-a-blazing in ME2.

This.

You don't really see it in ME1 because you initially encounter her while she's the stereotypical damsel-in-distress, and like Tali, in many ways she is initially out of her element. Sure, she's an extremely powerful biotic but she's still a very young adult by Asari standards, and doesn't have combat experience. She's probably never had someone try to kill her before and it is also highly unlikely that she's ever had to take lives. She's an academic, not a hardened warrior.

By ME2 that has changed. She's been to hell and back both with Shepard, and while trying to prevent the Collectors from obtaining his body. At the start of ME2 she is a combat veteran, and knows a thing or two about cloak-and-dagger work both from her experiences with Shepard, and while obtaining his body for Cerberus.

To expect ME2 Liara to be the sweet, awkward 'girl' you meet in in ME1 is unrealistic. I hate to quote Oliver Stone, but I think it sums up Liara's situation perfectly. "The first casualty of war is innocence."

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 23 mai 2011 - 08:21 .

[TSC_1]

Hm. I just realized something. There's an interesting parallel between the change to Liara and the change to paragon Sheps in ME2, especially in light of the discussion above about Liara's alignment changing depending on how Shep acts in ME3. To a certain degree, a paragon Shep's alignment is going to change depending on how Liara acts in ME2. With my canon Shep, for example, I went into the game with zero renegade points. But then I go see Liara, and I end up with a few renegade points that I only get because of my Shep's relationship with Liara and what she's doing. Because Liara has started to act in a more paragade way, and because my Shep will (within reason) do what she wants him to, no questions asked, my Shep is dragged closer to Liara's alignment.

It's an interesting character development, I thought, though it only really works with paragon Sheps. It certainly does fit the theme of ME2 being a darker chapter in the trilogy than ME1.

[Robhuzz]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I tend to think of Liara as always being Paragade, it's just that we never got to really see the 'gade' side in ME1 and then it came out guns-a-blazing in ME2.

This.

You don't really see it in ME1 because you initially encounter her while she's the stereotypical damsel-in-distress, and like Tali, in many ways she is initially out of her element. Sure, she's an extremely powerful biotic but she's still a very young adult by Asari standards, and doesn't have combat experience. She's probably never had someone try to kill her before and it is also highly unlikely that she's ever had to take lives. She's an academic, not a hardened warrior.

By ME2 that has changed. She's been to hell and back both with Shepard, and while trying to prevent the Collectors from obtaining his body. At the start of ME2 she is a combat veteran, and knows a thing or two about cloak-and-dagger work both from her experiences with Shepard, and while obtaining his body for Cerberus.

To expect ME2 Liara to be the sweet, awkward 'girl' you meet in in ME1 is unrealistic. I hate to quote Oliver Stone, but I think it sums up Liara's situation perfectly. "The first casualty of war is innocence."

Quite frankly, I think she still is the sweet girl you meet in ME1, mostly and she really hasn't changed that much from ME1. The way I see it, most of the stuff she says, including the flaying alive part is a cover for her real personality. She needs to act tough and ruthless if she is to stay on top in the game of information broking. Because if you're in some shady business and act weak, then no one is going to respect you and you can expect to be walked over very shortly.

This theory fits most of the time where Liara lowers the barriers she's put up (emotional ones, not biotic barriers) to kiss Shepard when he first meets her on illium, as well as certain conversations. The only time I put doubts to her sweet personality is when she says she got sekat killed to get the data and would do it again, though this seems to be caused by emotions because she is incredibly close to finding the shadow broker at that point.

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I don´t think Shepard should have any (noteworthy) influence over Liara. Sure a renegade Shepard could encourage her to do even more shady stuff but I don´t see him being able to change her overall good-intending nature.

[TMA LIVE]

I doubt Liara was always paragade, and we simply didn't see it in ME1. If that was the case, she wouldn't have acted the way she did around others and such. Even her voice changed in ME2.

I believe she was paragon in ME1, but was harden by ME2 time.

[TheMarshal]

I don't know that the paragon/renegade monikers apply to Liara very well. She's driven, focused to the point of being obsessive, and highly capable, meaning that just about anything she sets her mind to she'll accomplish, regardless of what happens along the way. I think she's got a decent moral compass, based on her advocacy for certain decisions in ME1, but she isn't above the occasional decision which goes against that compass if it gets results. I don't think she's as ruthless as Miranda when it comes to that, though.

[jtav]

I certainly hope she doesn't go back to the sweet version we saw in ME1. Mostly because I can't stand that version of her. It was ME2 that enabled me to like Liara.

[TheMarshal]

It would take a huge regression to get her 'back' to that point, and it would take an even bigger suspension of disbelief for us to buy it.

[corporal doody]

TheMarshal wrote...

It would take a huge regression to get her 'back' to that point, and it would take an even bigger suspension of disbelief for us to buy it.

i totally agree. I would also be against making her a ultra badass killing machine. LotSB wasnt a stretch for me. it was believable as she was so focused....so determined....almost consumed with her desire for revenge. At her core she was still the same Liara...only more sure of herself....confidence she gained while in Shepard's company no doubt. She COULD NOT do it alone however....she says as much. 
Liara has thus far shown some growth as a character during ME...it would be a shame if they went overboard with that growth....or returned her to the "default" setting. 

[HogarthHughes 3]

Robhuzz wrote...

Quite frankly, I think she still is the sweet girl you meet in ME1, mostly and she really hasn't changed that much from ME1. The way I see it, most of the stuff she says, including the flaying alive part is a cover for her real personality. She needs to act tough and ruthless if she is to stay on top in the game of information broking. Because if you're in some shady business and act weak, then no one is going to respect you and you can expect to be walked over very shortly.

This theory fits most of the time where Liara lowers the barriers she's put up (emotional ones, not biotic barriers) to kiss Shepard when he first meets her on illium, as well as certain conversations. The only time I put doubts to her sweet personality is when she says she got sekat killed to get the data and would do it again, though this seems to be caused by emotions because she is incredibly close to finding the shadow broker at that point.

Would the sweet girl from ME1 get into a shady business just to get revenge?  She kills Nyxeris without remorse, understandably of course as she was an agent of the SB, but still.  She is far from innocent by the time Shepard sees her again.  As has already been said, she has been hardened.  Her ruthlessness is as much a part of her character now as was her idealism and kindness that we saw more in ME 1.  Is that so bad?  Being more renegade doesn't necessarily mean being the bad guy.

[SilentNukee]

This picture is so simple, yet I love it SO much.

[TSC_1]

My reaction:

"What is that? A mountain? Is this a Mako reference? Wait... woah!" o_O

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

TSC_1 wrote...

My reaction:

"What is that? A mountain? Is this a Mako reference? Wait... woah!" o_O

Wait.... The mako? How did you even manage to think of that?

[TSC_1]

Lizardviking wrote...

TSC_1 wrote...

My reaction:

"What is that? A mountain? Is this a Mako reference? Wait... woah!" o_O

Wait.... The mako? How did you even manage to think of that?

I saw the pic out of the corner of my eye, at first. I only saw the white outline, not the grey silhouette. So I thought "mountain." Then I actually looked at it.

[SilentNukee]

TSC_1 wrote...

Lizardviking wrote...

TSC_1 wrote...

My reaction:

"What is that? A mountain? Is this a Mako reference? Wait... woah!" o_O

Wait.... The mako? How did you even manage to think of that?

I saw the pic out of the corner of my eye, at first. I only saw the white outline, not the grey silhouette. So I thought "mountain." Then I actually looked at it.

LOL...Well that made me laugh, regardless.

[Centauri2002]

 Well they're climbing to the peak of something, anyway. 

[SilentNukee]

centauri2002 wrote...

 Well they're climbing to the peak of something, anyway. 

Lol...I see what you did there!

[TMA LIVE]

centauri2002 wrote...

 Well they're climbing to the peak of something, anyway. 

Can't wait for the climax.

Anyways, I had this talk about Miranda, and I kind of feel the same about Liara.

Some don't like the idea of Liara no longer being the Shadow Broker, or at least, giving up her duties for the moment. They see it as a real downgrade for her character. While I honestly don't care. I care more about where she goes as a character, and don't care about her career path, or if she's still in power.


It'd only bother me if she went back into being an archaeologist after ME3, because I don't feel like there's any growth if she went back to her original job. But I'm not bothered because it's a downgrade to being the Shadow Broker. I just personally would rather see her try something else. Something new. But beyond that, I don't care. I care more about how she changes as a character, and not about her continuing to be in power.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 24 mai 2011 - 11:45 .

[TSC_1]

I care more about how she changes as a character, and not about her continuing to be in power.

Agreed. The change in her character (that is, in her attitude and maturity) between ME1 and LotSB is a much more interesting development than the fact that she becomes the SB. One is a change to the character itself; the other is just a change in career.

[jlb524]

centauri2002 wrote...

 Well they're climbing to the peak of something, anyway. 

The peak of looooooove
<3

[jlb524]

TSC_1 wrote...

I care more about how she changes as a character, and not about her continuing to be in power.

Agreed.  The change in her character (that is, in her attitude and maturity) between ME1 and LotSB is a much more interesting development than the fact that she becomes the SB. One is a change to the character itself; the other is just a change in career.

It's not that simple, as the change in character was linked to change in career.  I mean, if she just decided to sell bagels and coffee on the Citadel instead,  I doubt she'd be the same person that she is now.  Being the SB is a big deal and I don't think it should be simply swept aside.

[Centauri2002]

jlb524 wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

 Well they're climbing to the peak of something, anyway. 

The peak of looooooove
<3

Word.

Can she sell blueberry muffins instead of bagels? I can do more with that innuendo. 

[jlb524]

centauri2002 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

centauri2002 wrote...

 Well they're climbing to the peak of something, anyway. 

The peak of looooooove
<3

Word.

Can she sell blueberry muffins instead of bagels? I can do more with that innuendo. 

Absolutely.  I believe she'd sell a variety of breakfast foods...it's good for business.