564 réponses à ce sujet

[Ziggeh]

Revan312 wrote...

Just curious, at what point would you guys consider EA to be at blame, as they are the parent company. I'm not siding on one side or the other as such executive decisions are under wraps, so none of us will likely ever know to what extent they have influence over design decisions with Bioware or any other studio. But your making it out as if it's impossible that EA could be contributing and forcing changes and decisions down onto their subsidiary companies, which seems like very flawed logic, the same could be said of those that blame them for everything..

Several pages and an entire conversation behind, but this is a good question!

I would become concerned if decisions weren't direct responses and solutions to the problems of the previous game. While you're right, it makes perfect some sense to assume EA would at least at a general level like to know how bioware was to grow their market share, but I'd be pretty amazed if they were giving Bioware solutions to their own games issues.

Now, what we all consider to be a problem with the game is going to differ somewhat, but even people who wouldn't mind if the combat was literally like chess between friends would be hard pressed to call DA:O's combat perfect. And anyone defending cloth and leather hats is just flat out wrong.

As I see it the only two changes that one could call appeals to the mass market and cannot be traced to a previous issue are the extent to which the combat animations have moved into ninja gaiden territory, and the voice over. But the first, one could call a reaction to perceptions and the second I consider to be a direct result of the more personal narrative. In other words, I can see how a case for interference could be made here, but I can very easily see how the decisions could be made without it.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

http://social.biowar...ex/4715441&lf=8


Interesting, that would seem to answer the active dodging complaints at least in part would they not?  It isn't one of my issues personally so I don't want to speak for them.

Okay, so I'm the guy who is just now responding belatedly to something that was said a day earlier, but I do recall having seen this quote before. I also believe I saw clarification indicating that it was only true for the PCs, not mobs. I firmly believe that it will be possible to move away from enemy attacks and successfully evade them that way. In addition, we've seen that the rogue has at least one evasion maneuver, which is only not a 'dodge' button because it presumably has a, um refractory period (I can't remember the official term for recharging powers).

And really, to play well in that 'Fight like a Spartan' context, it has to be possible to evade attacks by at least moving away from them. We know that console play was designed to be active and immediately gratifying- Hit button, kill the guy yesterday. Pausing play is meant to be entirely optional, not mandatory for success. If that's your baseline, then a couple things need to happen to make it play well.

-Difficulty has to be balanced around that assumption. If players end up getting crushed by playing without pausing, they are going to feel frustrated and not feel like a Spartan at all.
-Active play must be meaningful. If a player is hitting buttons to attack and approaching play from that beat 'em up perspective, then the game must have a rewarding difficulty curve and must feel as though the player's actions have a tangible effect on the results. That's partly being delivered on with the 'See results immediately' initiative and banishing the feeling of behind the scenes die-rolling. But movement must be meaningful as well. If a player uses the evade skill as a rogue, hy must be able to successfully avoid an opponent's attacks by doing so at the right time. If that same player moves away just as an Ogre's fists slam down, then again, hys skill in doing so should be validated by not taking damage. Failing this, there will be no reason to maneuver on the field. Instead, the player will be left to repeatedly press the attack button while standing still. This would get old quick and wouldn't feel exciting at all, not would it present much room for player skill growth.

Given those two assumptions (and sure, they are assumptions, but I think they are pretty reasonable ones), then "pause-issue orders-unpause" players are probably going to need to play on a higher difficulty setting to address the first point and are going to need to 'time' their orders to address the second. Because of the immediacy required by point 2, if players are really going to micromanage their NPCs to have them evading attacks as well, then I wonder if even more pausing than usual might not be required. In the Infinite Engine and NWN games, there were hidden 'rounds' taking place in the background of play, so really, it was only necessary to pause once each round to issue reactive commands. I wonder how this is all going to play out on the PC. How will that kind of play feel in DA2? Will I just end up playing actively after all?

In Fallout 3, I used VATS virtually exclusively, falling back under cover and occasionally plinking while my action points recovered. In New Vegas, with improved Iron Sights and VATS damage immunity virtually eradicated, I don't use VATS at all. At this point, I expect my play to change in DA2 as well.

Oh, and Troeg's Mad Elf is my drink of choice around this time of the year.

Modifié par Vylan Antagonist, 10 décembre 2010 - 04:56 .

[Ziggeh]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

I firmly believe that it will be possible to move away from enemy attacks and successfully evade them that way. In addition, we've seen that the rogue has at least one evasion maneuver, which is only not a 'dodge' button because it presumably has a, um refractory period (I can't remember the official term for recharging powers).

Mike has said that active dodging is a problem and won't be in as it essentially forces you to play the tank, though that statement could arguably be said to not cover the moving-out-of-range type of dodge. Thing is though, if the attacks are frontloaded, then as I said if you're moving away from an attack, it's already hit you, so I have to assume that both the rogues "flip to safety" and moving away from mobs will simply stop you getting hit again rather than saving you from current attacks.

This is of course assuming the frontload still happens.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 10 décembre 2010 - 05:19 .

[Vylan Antagonist]

ziggehunderslash wrote...
Mike has said that active dodging is a problem and won't be in as it essentially forces you to play the tank, though that statement could arguably be said to not cover the moving-out-of-range type of dodge. Thing is though, if the attacks are frontloaded, then as I said if you're moving away from an attack, it's already hit you, so I have to assume that both the rogues "flip to safety" and moving away from mobs will simply stop you getting hit again rather than saving you from current attacks.

This is of course assuming the frontload still happens.

While I might not be able to find a source on this, I'm pretty sure that I saw the devs say that the front-loaded attacks are only for the PCs, not for the enemies. If my memory is correct, that makes a significant difference.

And again, if the smoke bomb back flip maneuver doesn't let me dodge an incoming attack as a Rogue, it will feel much less satisfying- I might as well just move away? Unless it sends me into a hiding state, I guess.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Here we go... Also from Peter Thomas:

Peter Thomas answered the following question...
21. Can we avoid a hit from an enemy using a defensive move or will it be unavoidable?

- If an enemy tries to hit you and you run too far away before it connects, it will miss.

And similarly:

In a later question, he answered...
28. How does combat work vs moving targets?

- Players hit almost right after you press a button. Enemies, on the other hand, wind up to swing (like the DAO animations). This will give you a bit more time to react to adverse situations that arise and help/get someone out of there.

So, yeah. That pretty much confirms it, no? Barring changes, it is absolutely possible (and part of the gameplay experience) to evade enemy attacks by keying in on their animations. It kinda has to be that way to play well.

Reading over those old quotes also reminded me that warriors hammer a button to recharge stamina. Again, they are giving the player active involvement to create a more visceral experience.

Modifié par Vylan Antagonist, 10 décembre 2010 - 05:39 .

[Ziggeh]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...
While I might not be able to find a source on this, I'm pretty sure that I saw the devs say that the front-loaded attacks are only for the PCs, not for the enemies. If my memory is correct, that makes a significant difference.

Definitely ya, but that would still leave them the problem that they were trying to correct with frontloading, the "How did that hit me? I'm half way across the screen" thing. Maybe they have another solution for that though.

Vylan Antagonist wrote...
And again, if the smoke bomb back flip maneuver doesn't let me dodge an incoming attack as a Rogue, it will feel much less satisfying- I might as well just move away? Unless it sends me into a hiding state, I guess.

I'm assuming it's just moving away, but faster, in the same way the ninja-port is just a faster way to move into position. I agree it's somewhat less awesome per button though.

[Ziggeh]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Here we go... Also from Peter Thomas:

Peter Thomas answered the following question...
21. Can we avoid a hit from an enemy using a defensive move or will it be unavoidable?

- If an enemy tries to hit you and you run too far away before it connects, it will miss.

Interesting, I'll have to scan that thread again, as that leaves the hit outta nowehere, as well as the issues you raise.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 10 décembre 2010 - 05:38 .

[MIke_18]

So the dodging works as a hack and slash instead of like an RPG.



Good to know.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Players won't be hit out of nowhere because enemy attacks are not front-loaded. They deliver damage at the end of the animation and if you've moved away (by maneuver or otherwise) before the animation finishes, you are not hurt. Enemies, on the other hand, are hit right away. This allows player inputs to provide immediate results, while still allowing players to feel like their reactions to enemy attacks are meaningful and significant.



Obviously this is all predicated on things not having changed since those quotes.

[nightcobra]

MIke_18 wrote...

So the dodging works as a hack and slash instead of like an RPG.

Good to know.

i didn't know dodging in hack and slashers were stat based, it's a surprise to me<_<

[Vylan Antagonist]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

MIke_18 wrote...

So the dodging works as a hack and slash instead of like an RPG.

Good to know.

i didn't know dodging in hack and slashers were stat based, it's a surprise to me<_<

Well, this is all very loaded language, but I think the point is that timely player interaction can definitely allow a player's toon to avoid damage regardless of stats.

And again, I really think it sorta has to be that way to play well. If you took DA:O's combat, precisely as it was, then made basic attacks happen on a button press, that still wouldn't be very exciting. You either reward player skill or you don't, and if you are going to encourage players to Fight Like a Spartan, there has to be more to it than mashing a button for auto-attacks. You must be able to react defensively (move away from attacks) or enemy attacks will feel frustratingly unavoidable.

And this still doesn't invalidate the ability to play with pausing and issuing orders. But I don't think playing that way will be as satisfying with these changes. Probably.

[Brosef84]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Recommendation:

Holy crap dude, where did you find this??  If you aren't from WI or the midwest I'll be very impressed.  Leinenkugels is brewed like 12 min away from my home town, love this stuff!

[Ziggeh]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Players won't be hit out of nowhere because enemy attacks are not front-loaded. They deliver damage at the end of the animation and if you've moved away (by maneuver or otherwise) before the animation finishes, you are not hurt.

Sorry, yes, you're right, I was assuming they'd stick to one range check when presumably are now two, one at "cast" and another at the point of damage.

[lv12medic]

Hmm... You know what would make combat more engaging is to allow attacks on the move (at least with penalties applied to hit). Talking about moving out of the way to avoid attacks got me thinking, and looking back on DA:O's combat. Say you have a mage sitting in the back and some hurlock goes charging at it. The hurlock has to stop, plant its feet and do its swing animation, and during that time the mage went running halfway across the screen by the end of the animation to be hit. I don't mind the idea of moving people out of the way, especially against slow attacks (good luck running away from Isabela's machine gun knives...), but if everyone always has to plant their feet into the ground before they start attacking, it might look silly as everyone tries to run around in sporadic zig-zag anti-submarine maneuvers (one of the tactics of fighting the Ogre in Ostagar comes to mind).



Of course, there's the jumping charge attacks and stuff now too. And arrows still have heat seeking sensors and maneuvering flaps. Eh, just some food for thought I guess.

[Ziggeh]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

And this still doesn't invalidate the ability to play with pausing and issuing orders. But I don't think playing that way will be as satisfying with these changes. Probably.

It does mean you can really rather seriously micromanage movement, trying to keep all four players out of barney. But I can see that quickly becoming tedious.

I suppose it's a balance. If it's something that's assumed you're doing consistently then it could present a rather serious problem, but if it's a bonus you do in a pinch it'd be pretty effective. Finding the sweet point where you're not doing pinch moves in all cases just because you can I can see being an issue though.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Another older quote that applies to this discussion:

which formula is used for attack vs defence when decideing if you land a hit or miss in da2?

- All abilities hit by default in DA2. It kind of sucked when your Arrow of Slaying missed a guy... Also most abilities have the chance of a critical effect.

So hitting is not stat-based. And again, for satisfying play from an action perspective, it couldn't be. If the player is actively controlling the hitting by pressing buttons, then the player wants to see those attacks register, not whiff simply because of dice being rolled in the background.

<edit>- That's abilities only. Basic attacks may or may not have rolls associated. I'm kinda confused by two quotes than seem to possibly slightly contradict one another. Basic ranged attacks apparently don't get hit calculations, but basic (melee?) attacks by players can glance or hit unless displacement is involved.

As far as closing attacks by monsters:

12. Do melee enemies also have ways to close with the target?

- Melee enemies can run at the player and attempt to close, but don't have the same sort of dash or closing attacks that the player does. The player will have time to react and do attacks of his own before they shuffle into position.

Modifié par Vylan Antagonist, 10 décembre 2010 - 06:33 .

[AlanC9]

Oh good, he's back.

wolf3957 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Sorry for the derail, guys, but still some business to take care of.

wolf3957 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

But I can still muster up the energy to correct a.. typo? Mistake? Lie? You be the judge!

wolf3957 wrote...
 First, between ME and ME2 there were three years. ME2 was released just after EA bought out Bioware.

EA bought Bio in October 2007. That's before ME1 was released, not 2.

Make that two errors, since the time between ME1 and ME2's release is two years and two months, not three years.

ME was released in Nov of '07. ME2 was released in Jan of '10. EA bought Bioware and Pandemic in '08.

Yep, two years and two months between ME1 and ME2, like I said.

The EA purchase of Bio was announced in October 2007, before ME1 shipped. It took full effect in mid-January 2008. So two full years between EA taking control of Bio and ME2's release. Two years is your idea of "just after"?

Kid, if you're going to troll, you'll have to do better than this.

Announced in '07, FINALIZED in '08, AFTER the release of ME. Microsoft published the first, then EA stepped in for the second.

How come you keep repeating the things I say like they prove your point?

Yep, EA never had anything to do with ME1, but they did with ME2. You're the one who said that they came in just before ME2 was published. This is obviously false. That's why I gave you the "typo" out

Or was the "just" misleading there, and all you actually meant to say was that ME2 was an EA product and ME1 was not? If so, that's fine with me, since ME2 is the superior RPG.

[MIke_18]

ME2 is not the superior RPG, since it's not even an RPG.

ME3 is getting Multiplayer. 

Buh deathmatch doesn't lend itself well to RPG mechanics.!! 

Oh wait.

Modifié par MIke_18, 10 décembre 2010 - 06:32 .

[Xewaka]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Another older quote that applies to this discussion:

which formula is used for attack vs defence when decideing if you land a hit or miss in da2?

- All abilities hit by default in DA2. It kind of sucked when your Arrow of Slaying missed a guy... Also most abilities have the chance of a critical effect.

So hitting is not stat-based. And again, for satisfying play from an action perspective, it couldn't be. If the player is actively controlling the hitting by pressing buttons, then the player wants to see those attacks register, not whiff simply because of dice being rolled in the background.

But I like dice rolls. What irked me about Origins was precisely that we couldn't see the physical dice rolls. I want to crunch numbers in combat. And I want the tooltips to help me do so, rather than hide it from me.

[Ziggeh]

MIke_18 wrote...

ME2 is not the superior RPG, since it's not even an RPG.

So you're the one they've appointed to create the universal definition of the term? It's about time they got someone to do it, it was creating all sorts of langauge problems. People making opinion based statements as if they were facts, it was crazy.

MIke_18 wrote...

ME3 is getting Multiplayer.

Remember that "discussion" thing we talked about? Part of that is not just repeating statements after you've been corrected as if it adds wieght to the initial argument.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 10 décembre 2010 - 06:35 .

[AlanC9]

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Another older quote that applies to this discussion:

which formula is used for attack vs defence when decideing if you land a hit or miss in da2?

- All abilities hit by default in DA2. It kind of sucked when your Arrow of Slaying missed a guy... Also most abilities have the chance of a critical effect.

So hitting is not stat-based. And again, for satisfying play from an action perspective, it couldn't be. If the player is actively controlling the hitting by pressing buttons, then the player wants to see those attacks register, not whiff simply because of dice being rolled in the background.

- That's abilities only. Basic attacks may or may not have rolls associated. I'm kinda confused by two quotes than seem to possibly slightly contradict one another. Basic ranged attacks apparently don't get hit calculations, but basic (melee?) attacks by players can glance or hit unless displacement is involved.

As far as closing attacks by monsters:

12. Do melee enemies also have ways to close with the target?

- Melee enemies can run at the player and attempt to close, but don't have the same sort of dash or closing attacks that the player does. The player will have time to react and do attacks of his own before they shuffle into position.

So presumably the active party member is playing under different rules from the rest of the party. This makes me wonder what happens if you switch members. Not an issue in ME2 since you couldn't do that anyway.

[MIke_18]

ME3 is getting MP. There are a lot of rumors floating around, and it's probably true.

[AlanC9]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

MIke_18 wrote...

ME2 is not the superior RPG, since it's not even an RPG.

So you're the one they've appointed to create the universal definition of the term? It's about time they got someone to do it, it was creating all sorts of langauge problems. People making opinion based statements as if they were facts, it was crazy.

You know, I actually considered editing my own post to put an IMO in there, but I thought that leaving it as it was might stir up some crazy.

Modifié par AlanC9, 10 décembre 2010 - 06:45 .

[Atakuma]

MIke_18 wrote...

ME3 is getting MP. There are a lot of rumors floating around, and it's probably true.

Rumors = probably true now?

[Xewaka]

AlanC9 wrote...

Vylan Antagonist wrote...

Another older quote that applies to this discussion:

which formula is used for attack vs defence when decideing if you land a hit or miss in da2?

- All abilities hit by default in DA2. It kind of sucked when your Arrow of Slaying missed a guy... Also most abilities have the chance of a critical effect.

So hitting is not stat-based. And again, for satisfying play from an action perspective, it couldn't be. If the player is actively controlling the hitting by pressing buttons, then the player wants to see those attacks register, not whiff simply because of dice being rolled in the background.

- That's abilities only. Basic attacks may or may not have rolls associated. I'm kinda confused by two quotes than seem to possibly slightly contradict one another. Basic ranged attacks apparently don't get hit calculations, but basic (melee?) attacks by players can glance or hit unless displacement is involved.

As far as closing attacks by monsters:

12. Do melee enemies also have ways to close with the target?

- Melee enemies can run at the player and attempt to close, but don't have the same sort of dash or closing attacks that the player does. The player will have time to react and do attacks of his own before they shuffle into position.

So presumably the active party member is playing under different rules from the rest of the party. This makes me wonder what happens if you switch members. Not an issue in ME2 since you couldn't do that anyway.

Actually, if I understood correctly, the whole party works on a different ruleset than the enemies. Which opens a whole new can of worms.