564 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Let's not get into an ME2 discussion again, especially since Torhagen doesn't have any rational points to make.

[The Lyons]

Because most of the features seem to be shallow and half thought out. Also because the designers seem to want to descend to the low level of their community.

[Valmarn]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

They are complaining because they dislike the direction of the game.

Essentially this.  Some people hate unnecessary change. 

There's an old saying that I've always been quite fond of:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Ziggeh]

Valmarn wrote...
There's an old saying that I've always been quite fond of:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

And in a subjective medium "broke" isn't a binary state.

[Ryzaki]

Or hell even better "If it just needs a little tweaks don't break the thing completely!

[shumworld]

ErichHartmann wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

They are complaining because they dislike the direction of the game.

Essentially this.  Some people hate change. 

But sometimes change can set them free.

[AlanC9]

Ryzaki wrote...

Or hell even better "If it just needs a little tweaks don't break the thing completely!

And if it was never any good in the first place, don't keep it just because you've been doing it for years.

[The Lyons]

Problem is that it was not broken. It was flawed deeply due to incompetence but not irreparable. Throwing the baby out with the bath water rarely solves anything.

[Ryzaki]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Or hell even better "If it just needs a little tweaks don't break the thing completely!

And if it was never any good in the first place, don't keep it just because you've been doing it for years.

If it wasn't any good in the first place no one would've enjoyed it :innocent:
 

[upsettingshorts]

The Lyons wrote...

Problem is that it was not broken. It was flawed deeply due to incompetence but not irreparable. Throwing the baby out with the bath water rarely solves anything.

*decides not to try to guess what The Lyons is talking about*

I know a baby that should be thrown out with the bath water:  The entire concept of a class-based system.  That's just for starters.

Ryzaki wrote...

If it wasn't any good in the first place no one would've enjoyed it 

Well, I've been playing Bioware games for a while and enjoyed them immensely but that doesn't mean I liked every feature.  Some I disliked, many I simply tolerated. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:05 .

[Ryzaki]

@Upsettingshorts: Thus my "tweaks" argument not breaking the whole damn thing completely.

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Upsettingshorts: Thus my "tweaks" argument not breaking the whole damn thing completely.

Thats where perspective comes in.  If I dislike Feature X but another person views it as a fundamental part of their experience removing it will break the game for the other person but improve it for me.

There's no rule that can really be applied honestly to change when it comes to gaming.  People will like what they like and dislike what they don't.  Not much more to it than that.

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Upsettingshorts: Thus my "tweaks" argument not breaking the whole damn thing completely.

Thats where perspective comes in.  If I dislike Feature X but another person views it as a fundamental part of their experience removing it will break the game for the other person but improve it for me.

There's no rule that can really be applied honestly to change when it comes to gaming.  People will like what they like and dislike what they don't.  Not much more to it than that.

True.

Though I do agree with you about the class system.

Not being able to lockpick or use ranged weapons because I rolled a warror instead of a rogue is frankly annoying and makes no sense other than arbitary limits for the sake of having limits.

[Ziggeh]

Ryzaki wrote...

Not being able to lockpick or use ranged weapons because I rolled a warror instead of a rogue is frankly annoying and makes no sense other than arbitary limits for the sake of having limits.

I don't think that's true, I think both are helpful for game balance.

[Ryzaki]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Not being able to lockpick or use ranged weapons because I rolled a warror instead of a rogue is frankly annoying and makes no sense other than arbitary limits for the sake of having limits.

I don't think that's true, I think both are helpful for game balance.

what balance does stopping warriors from being able to get loot/certain codexes achieve? What balance does stopping rogues from wielding 2HD swords despite having the strength to achieve? 

It's just limiting to make each class "distinct" without those classes there would be no need for the limits.

[LoveAsThouWilt]

I agree that all characters no matter the class should be allowed to lockpick. Kinda how in Mass Effect only those who went into Electronics could hack terminals (or with an ally that could), in ME2 Shepard can hack no matter what. I'm not saying take it out alltogether skill-based, but, at least let him bash a door in instead if he can't lockpick!



As for using BOWs, this I understand and at the same time I don't. It should work along the same lines as Mass Effect 1 did with this issue: You can equip and use any weapon, but that doesn't mean your going to be any good with it unless your the class that can specialize/train in it. Meaning a warrior can't do anything or very much with a bow, but he/she could at least pull enemies by equiping it. Other than that I don't see why a warrior would NEED a bow.



I play warriors always. I am the rush forward and bash heads kind of person. So, this won't be any issue for me.

[Crimson Invictus]

I can't help but feel this subject has not only been broached before but was as pointless a debate then as it is now since both sides firmly believe they're right and you can't have both systems in place at once.

You either have restrictions to reflect the fact this is a party-based game or you simply allow everybody to do everything and decide to have no real distinction between the classes. Clearly the developers like the idea of emphasizing the party-based element.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Ryzaki]

Why wouldn't a warrior whose specialization would be weapons not be able to use a bow? That to me is odd.

Honestly I'd prefer if warriors could use all weapons and rogues got certain talents (dirty fighting, stuff like that) that warriors didn't get.

And really if BW wants to rely on me needing a certain character instead of bringing that character along because I enjoy his/her dialogue and personality then I'd personally think they're doings something wrong.

If I didn't like Leliana/Zevran and didn't play a rogue I couldn't open chests. That's ridculous.

Not only that but they use this limit and yet all classes aren't equal. Losing a mage means I lose healing/attack magic sure but that can be replaced by potions/normal attacks, losing a warrior simply means losing access to the S&S and 2HD weapon tree which isn't that big of a deal. Losing a rogue on the other hand means I can't open a heck of a lot of items including some that hold codexes. This isn't replaceable. Which frankly makes it really annoying to me.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:41 .

[Ziggeh]

Ryzaki wrote...

what balance does stopping warriors from being able to get loot/certain codexes achieve?

Valuable class specific skills gives you more predictable party composition, which lets them more finely tune combat balance.

Ryzaki wrote...
What balance does stopping rogues from wielding 2HD swords despite having the strength to achieve?

Same as above, predicatability of the force you bring to bear.

[ErichHartmann]

I think skill based freedom of choice (rather than clearly defined classes with restrictions) works best with non - party based RPGs. Although the lack of lock bash, archery and dual wield for warriors makes little sense in my mind. /shrugs

Modifié par ErichHartmann, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:41 .

[AlanC9]

Ryzaki wrote...
Not being able to lockpick or use ranged weapons because I rolled a warror instead of a rogue is frankly annoying and makes no sense other than arbitary limits for the sake of having limits. 

After Morrowind, I started to think that class limits maybe aren't so bad. A character that can do everything isn't much of a character.

[Ziggeh]

ErichHartmann wrote...

I think skill based freedom of choice (rather than clearly defined classes with restrictions) works best with non - party based RPGs.

Very much so, you want a sense of synergy, that it's not just four guys doing their own thing. MMO's do it for the same reason.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 15 décembre 2010 - 07:42 .

[Ryzaki]

ErichHartmann wrote...

I think skill based freedom of choice (rather than clearly defined classes with restrictions) works best with non - party based RPGs. Although the lack of lock bash, archery and dual wield for warriors makes little sense in my mind. /shrugs

The only reason I think it's there is to force someone to bring a rogue along.

[Addai]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

I can't help but feel this subject has not only been broached before but was as pointless a debate then as it is now since both sides firmly believe they're right and you can't have both systems in place at once.

You either have restrictions to reflect the fact this is a party-based game or you simply allow everybody to do everything and decide to have no real distinction between the classes. Clearly the developers like the idea of emphasizing the party-based element.

Players should be able to build the team and decide on how to construct their party.  The more artificial limits, the less RP flexibility and player choice.

[Ryzaki]

Urgh. And in the end it looks like BW trying to force a party comp on me which I don't find desirable. If all the characters I think mesh well with my PC are of a certain class (all warriors) I shouldn't be penalized for bringing them along instead of dragging along a rogue/mage who I may or may not find extremely irritating.



That said the styles of play are unreconcible so urgh. I'll just wait for the inevitable weapons mods so I don't have to worry about "class balance".