789 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

Pugnate wrote...

Nah, I meant two different versions on the PC. Staggering difference of opinion regarding certain issues.

Which in particular are you thinking of right now?

[Beaner28]

A rogue being able to teleport is so rediculously stupid that the action now mimics Nightcrawler in X-Men 2, particularly at 1:39.

Modifié par Beaner28, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:37 .

[Revan312]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So Brock to you the lack of responsiveness to commands in DA:O was a feature?

Imo, the slow form of combat in DA:O was a bit too slow, but I would much prefer a slower more deliberate form of tactical gameplay than a super fast, ultra jerky, teleportation/epileptic seizure style of micromanagement.

I mean that looked amazingly spastic and staccato, which means I agree with Brock. That looked like a medieval European set Ninja Gaiden but with more disconnection between moves..

Now I haven't played it, so I don't know how it will feel, but the look so far is a bit worrisome to me. Hopefully the story will keep me enthralled..

Modifié par Revan312, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:37 .

[blothulfur]

Hawke sounds a bit poncey to me but then again i'm a yorkshire man born and bred, strong in the arm and thick in the head.

[upsettingshorts]

As long as there is pause-and-play, the differences in execution speed couldn't be more irrelevant. What bothered me about DA:O was stuff like sending my warriors out to intercept incoming hostiles, having them casually jog over to where the foe used to be, watching them jog past, and turning to engage the hostiles after they already started attacking my ranged toons. I could have paused and adjusted this, and often did, but the idea that they couldn't pull off a simple fire-and-forget intercept order was shockingly bad to me, and did more to break my suspension of disbelief than any rogue teleport or warrior lightspeed charge ever could. But I recognize that is subjective.

[Insomniak]

Dave of Canada wrote...

*since the off-topic discussion isn't going away... might as well answer*

How is it a hack & slash? I hear the same few people always repeating that same line or two and it's getting frustrating as they have no evidence to their claim besides "how it looks". Do animations represent gameplay now? Does this mean if DA:O had faster animations, it would be called a hack & slash in your eyes? 

Now when you guys say "hack & slash" are you referring to genres like Prince of Persia or Assassins Creed? Because, while I do love those games, I'm pretty positive that DA2 is nothing like that... I believe they have merely improved combat responsiveness and animation. That doesn't mean it has an entirely new style of gameplay, right?

Modifié par javajedi217, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:46 .

[Maria Caliban]

Mathew Goldman's voice is so strong and reassuring, I'd like him to handle my 401k.

Brockololly wrote...

Yeah, maybe thats hyperbole on their part, but really? We're taking pot shots at chess now? I mean, its still think like a general, fight like a spartan, right? You know the whole tactics and general part is still there, right? Some people like chess and liked that Origins played a bit like a tactical game like chess.

Given how fast Rogue Hawke was dashing and dancing around, I'm not so sure how its going to feel on the PC- it looks almost as if even with pause and play, you'll need to be micromanaging one person at a time if you want to exert any kind of tactics.

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So Brock to you the lack of responsiveness to commands in DA:O was a feature?

I'm not even sure how you get that out of Brock's post. I don't recall anyone saying that the pieces in a chess game are non-responsive. The only lag between you commanding them and them acting is your hand and arm.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:43 .

[Pugnate]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Pugnate wrote...

Nah, I meant two different versions on the PC. Staggering difference of opinion regarding certain issues.

Which in particular are you thinking of right now?

For example, I find it startling that you found the isometric cam useless. Or at least that you don't seem to find its association with tactical gameplay warranted.

Modifié par Pugnate, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:42 .

[Dave of Canada]

javajedi217 wrote...

Now when you guys say "hack & slash" are you referring to genres like Prince of Persia of Assassins Creed? Because, while I do love those games, I'm pretty positive that DA2 is nothing like that... I believe they have merely improved combat responsiveness and animation. That doesn't mean it an entirely new style of gameplay, right?

Most people reference God of War and Dynasty Warriors for examples.

Personally, I don't see it at all.

[upsettingshorts]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm not even sure how you get that out of Brock's post.

I could have sworn his post referred to slow and deliberate when I responded to it. It certainly doesn't now. So either he edited it or maybe (likely) I've just been on the forums too long and all the criticisms are bleeding together.

Pugnate wrote...

For example, I find it startling that you found the isometric cam useless. Or at least that you don't seem to find its association with tactical gameplay warranted. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Well my argument went a little deeper than that.  I found that I never (or extremely rarely) needed to use it myself, and
that the idea of tactical gameplay shouldn't be tied to what angle you're viewing the action from.  A detached third person, zoomable camera in the vein of those of the Total War series would work great.  My objections have always been based around the idea that a single, particular type of view was inherently more tactical than others.  

The isometric cam in particular struck me as a relic of the 2D sprite era in that the fixed, elevated angle allowed the developers to create the illusion of 3D enviroments by fixing the perspective.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:49 .

[Blastback]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So Brock to you the lack of responsiveness to commands in DA:O was a feature?

I've never gotten this complaint.  It never once felt like the charates had a delayed response to my commands.  They did what I wanted right when I clicked it. 

As for the teleporting thing, I don't care for that.  It's to over the top for a nonmagic class.  Maybe it comes from my D&D fighter background, but I like warriors and rogues because they are mere mortals in a world of magic users and fantastic and powerful monsters.  They have nothing but their skill, heart and courage, but still keep up. 

[Pzykozis]

Beaner28 wrote...

A rogue being able to teleport is so rediculously stupid that the action now mimics Nightcrawler in X-Men 2, particularly at 1:39.

It's an aesthetically stylised way of showing high speed. It's not a teleport, the game is stylised.

I've never gotten this complaint. It never once felt like the charates had a delayed response to my commands. They did what I wanted right when I clicked it.

Shuffle shuffle swipe? I'd be suprised if you didn't encounter that at all.

Modifié par Pzykozis, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:45 .

[TheCreeper]

I don't think the teleporting is suppose to be actual teleporting, more just repsentive of how swift the Rogue is or something.

Edit: Ninja'd

Modifié par TheCreeper, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:44 .

[Pugnate]

Actually, when a person calls an RPG a "hack & slash", they aren't referring to a game like Prince of Persia or God of War.



Or at least, I hope not.



Dungeon Siege was referred to as a hack and slash RPG by critics. Icewind Dale before it, was described as a hack and slash RPG by most in the industry.

[upsettingshorts]

[quote]Blastback wrote...

I've never gotten this complaint.  It never once felt like the charates had a delayed response to my commands.  They did what I wanted right when I clicked it.  [/quote]

My post above contains a specific example of a situation I felt was unresponsive to a basic command.

[quote]Blastback wrote...

As for the teleporting thing, I don't care for that.  It's to over the top for a nonmagic class.  Maybe it comes from my D&D fighter background, but I like warriors and rogues because they are mere mortals in a world of magic users and fantastic and powerful monsters.  They have nothing but their skill, heart and courage, but still keep up.  [/quote]

I think that is being intentionally subverted based on Mike Laidlaw's stated position that he doesn't think mages should have a monopoly on badassery.  I agree with him, even if I do think the animations are a bit much.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:47 .

[Insomniak]

Pugnate wrote...

Actually, when a person calls an RPG a "hack & slash", they aren't referring to a game like Prince of Persia or God of War.

Or at least, I hope not.

Dungeon Siege was referred to as a hack and slash RPG by critics. Icewind Dale before it, was described as a hack and slash RPG by most in the industry.

i.e. they've rendered the mage class useless? Or there's simply no longer enough strategic thinking or skill involved in combat?

If either of those assertions are what people are talking about, I still don't agree.

Modifié par javajedi217, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:51 .

[Blastback]

[quote]Upsettingshorts wrote...

[quote]Blastback wrote...

I've never gotten this complaint.  It never once felt like the charates had a delayed response to my commands.  They did what I wanted right when I clicked it.  [/quote]

My post above contains a specific example of a situation I felt was unresponsive to a basic command.

[quote]Blastback wrote...

As for the teleporting thing, I don't care for that.  It's to over the top for a nonmagic class.  Maybe it comes from my D&D fighter background, but I like warriors and rogues because they are mere mortals in a world of magic users and fantastic and powerful monsters.  They have nothing but their skill, heart and courage, but still keep up.  [/quote]

I think that is being intentionally subverted based on Mike Laidlaw's stated position that he doesn't think mages should have a monopoly on badassery.  I agree with him, even if I do think the animations are a bit much.

[/quote]
That's the thing for me, I agree that nonmagic classes should be just as badass, but not in a way that is as over the top as magic users.  To use the languge of TV Tropes, they are the Badass Normals.

As for the responsiveness thing, I'd been more focused on the speed at which abilities were used.  The run past a target and overshoot thing, yeah I get that. 

Modifié par Blastback, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:51 .

[upsettingshorts]

Blastback wrote...

As for the responsiveness thing, I'd been more focused on the speed at which abilities were used.  The run past a target and overshoot thing, yeah I get that. 

Are you talking about cooldowns?  Or the time taken for an ability to start and finish?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:53 .

[Blastback]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Blastback wrote...

As for the responsiveness thing, I'd been more focused on the speed at which abilities were used.  The run past a target and overshoot thing, yeah I get that. 

Are you talking about cooldowns?  Or the time taken between an ability is started and finished?

More like how soon an ability is used once I click on it.

Modifié par Blastback, 08 décembre 2010 - 11:53 .

[Pugnate]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm not even sure how you get that out of Brock's post.

I could have sworn his post referred to slow and deliberate when I responded to it. It certainly doesn't now. So either he edited it or maybe (likely) I've just been on the forums too long and all the criticisms are bleeding together.

Pugnate wrote...

For example, I find it startling that you found the isometric cam useless. Or at least that you don't seem to find its association with tactical gameplay warranted. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

Well my argument went a little deeper than that.  I found that I never (or extremely rarely) needed to use it myself, and
that the idea of tactical gameplay shouldn't be tied to what angle you're viewing the action from.  A detached third person, zoomable camera in the vein of those of the Total War series would work great.  My objections have always been based around the idea that a single, particular type of view was inherently more tactical than others.  

Ahh I see. Yes, that makes sense. I think people haven't actually seen a detached Total War style camera in a Bioware game as of yet, and that's why they are particularly attached to the isometric view. While I would prefer a iso cam, I wouldn't mind a detached vertical cam as long as it works well.

To be honest, I possibly didn't catch all of your thoughts on the subject earlier, and assumed that you didn't see the tactical advantage of having an elevated view.

I now realize you were speaking of the angle.

Yes, as long as there is an elevated view from which to command from, it doesn't matter what angle it comes from, if any.

[Beaner28]

Giving rogues teleportation mutant super powers so mages don't have a monopoly on badassery is a ridiculous over compensation.

[Brockololly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So Brock to you the lack of responsiveness to commands in DA:O was a feature?

???

I'm just wondering how the "press button something awesome happens" combat will end up feeling with a mouse and keyboard and pause and play tactics- its something we've yet to see. Just like how you could see the new combat in ME2 in videos but it wasn't until you actually played the game that you got a feel for how different it handled. Origins had its issues no doubt, but it seems to me BioWare is making changes with a sledgehammer and not a scalpel. Thats how it looks anyway.

I'm fine with more responsiveness as that could potentially make things more tactical even, but the fact that the animations and speed with which they're seemingly achieving this makes the entire thing look quite comical and cheesy to me.

[TheCreeper]

Beaner28 wrote...

Giving rogues teleportation mutant super powers so mages don't have a monopoly on badassery is a ridiculous over compensation.

Again, it's not actually teleportation, it is just a reperesenting the swiftness of the rogue.

[upsettingshorts]

Blastback wrote...

More like how soon an ability is used once I click on it.

Oh, yeah see that strikes me as the very definition of responsive.  If the cooldowns are too short (or removed, like in the exaggerated Varric portion) or abilities are simply over and done with in a flash, I could see that becoming a problem, but those things can be balanced.  But more importantly I'm sure I can't really judge that just be watching a brief gameplay clip or two. 

[Beaner28]

TheCreeper wrote...

Beaner28 wrote...

Giving rogues teleportation mutant super powers so mages don't have a monopoly on badassery is a ridiculous over compensation.

Again, it's not actually teleportation, it is just a reperesenting the swiftness of the rogue.

Do we know that?