151 réponses à ce sujet

[blothulfur]

I kind of like the dark and gloomily magnificent genre of dark fantasy where everything ends in tragedy and compromised morals, howards conan may have been trapped in such a world but by crom he would still love, laugh and struggle with all his will and strength and rarely he would through luck or hard work come out a little ahead. To me it's more realistic, as to whether dragon age is still dark fantasy things change as they evolve and DA2 may carve out its own niche.

[Piecake]

Big Blue Car wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alienage plague.

Quite a few missions deal with pregnancy / children.

Pretty much 80% of DA:O had this.

I don't really get this one.

I've played DA:O multiple times and barely remember the alienage plague and remember no 'pregnancy missions'.  Neither were in any way a big deal. I'll give you that the local Chantry dodged the 'god-is-evil-JRPG' vibe. But those were random examples, there are many more.

It's simple, just about everyone in pre-renaissance europe was a malnourished, short, ugly person. Ironically, it was especially the nobility due to relentless inbreeding. A few hours of research can tell you this. But instead of the realistic, dark, gritty truth, the kings and nobles we see in this dark, medieval fantasy are tall, strong and handsome. 

Writers can't have it both ways; when they use the dark realism idea to justify the rape but then avoid every other aspect that should also be included it shows that the rape is getting special treatment. Which implies that the rape appeals to them in a way the other aspects don't. Which is disgusting.

I'm ot sure how historical documents can tell about the general actractiveness of people, and if you are using paintings to justify that stance then, you know, they could just have different standards of beauty.  Frankly, if someone in the future looked at our magazines I'm sure they would come to the conclusion that we find malnourished women attractive. 

Do we ever get an indicator on how tall people are in DAO anyways?  As for malnourished, well thats probably techinically correct since most people probaly didnt get enough meat and protein, but it does conjur up images of distended bellies and what not, and that was only common in protracted famines. 

[Big Blue Car]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

I've played DA:O multiple times and barely remember the alienage plague

It was the basis of the entire slaver thing.

and remember no 'pregnancy missions'.

Off the top of my head, I remember the dwarf who gave birth to a child and was abandoned by everybody because of it.

It's simple, just about everyone in pre-renaissance europe was a malnourished, short, ugly person. Ironically, it especially the nobility due to relentless inbreeding. A few hours of research can tell you this. But instead of the realistic, dark, gritty truth the kings and nobles we see in this dark, medieval fantsy are tall, strong and handsome.

Though this is Thedas, there isn't inbreeding and such. Hell, they are healthier than usual because they have magic at their disposal and the few things magic can't cure (rotten teeth and such) are still shown.

Ok, so there's magic. Because this is a fictional world with a fictional society, created in the modern age as an entertainment product they can take liberties and fundamentally change parts of that society to suit their vision.

So why is there still institutionalised rape? Why, if they've taken artistic license to justify so many other things, do they still feel the need to write "generic fantasy world in every way except ****es get raped, it's dark fantasy, lol,"? 

Plus in a world where Lust/Rage Demons are a real thing that can take physical form you'd think that rape would be judged a lot more harshly. But that wouldn't suit the dark jack-off fantasy that is every piece of modern media which goes out of its way to justify rape.

[FellowerOfOdin]

Reposting the part on rape, some might not have read it:



So, on the "rape" issue - why is it used so much? Actually, it's a very well-working method to make the atmosphere grim. A rape not only means that an innocent, weaker being you will, for most parts, immediately pity, gets violated by an evil force, it also screws the whole concept of emancipation over and replaces it with sheer instinct-driven lust. It's a symbol for mankind's primal instincts taking over, leaving only ruins of civilization behind.



And Dave...GODDAMN your sig freaked me out. I was like "Oh, that's the chick from Mass Ef-WHAT THE ****!"

[blothulfur]

I think most people (other than lifers) are against rape, and certainly bioware doesn't present it in a good or positive light. The hero is there to stop it and punish the guilty, and if they don't they're ****s.

[Big Blue Car]

/\\/\\
Using it as a cheap way to make you hate polygon stock villain 3 is deplorable, and so is designing a world purposefully to feature it. Again, nothing against freedom of expression, but if you're going to justify it by using the dark realism trope then if you ignore everything but the rape you are lying and equivocating. It should be obvious at this point that I think the Bioware writing staff are.

Yeah, rape is an extremely effective idea. So is tearing babies in half and fellating a goat. That doesn't mean it's something to go out of your way to put in a god damn video game.

Sorry if I seem that I'm raging here. I do voluntary work as a mentor for disadvantaged children who have suffered ridiculously and when I see media revelling in 'look how mature and dark we are, we feature rape even when the context doesn't dictate we have to!' it makes me see red.

Modifié par Big Blue Car, 09 décembre 2010 - 12:56 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

No amount of source I have access to manages to provide me a clear definition of 'dark fantasy', so I'll go with my educated guess and suppose that it roughly means fantasy without pink glasses.

With that as a guideline, I'd say Origins was pretty much in the dark fantasy territory. It introduced many aspects of real life we strive to keep our children away from, and did so without shoving those elements up the player's face and turning the whole thing into a parody of dark fantasy. The immorality, practicality and depravity of life was woven into the game world more or less seamlessly, not like in "yeah, crap is everywhere and crap is everything, crap's gonna hit ya everywhere you turn and crap's all you gonna get"-style games which force their cynicism and skepticism and leave no hope for happiness and no desire to survive. Origins told us the stories of people who were not perfect, not those who were outright evil or screwed up. I don't know how much dark fantasy this is, but unless the term is limited to all manner of apocalyptic scenarios and such, Origins pretty much fits the bill.

As for the sequel, I have no bleeding idea. We'll see soon enough. Hopefully.

[Big Blue Car]

Dark fantasy is a variation of the fantasy genre. Fantasy typically presents a pseudo-european but near-always medieval environment, but supplements it with typically mythological additions such as elves, magic and dragons. Dark fantasy differs because it supposedly avoids many of the ridiculously positive tropes of fantasy, such as immortal people or healing magic or cleanliness. For this reason lots of people consider it more realistic and less pandering, which is a description that dark fantasy writers very much approve of. Examples of dark fantasy are the mentioned Conan, which revels in its masculinity-parody status and doesn't claim to be anything more, and American Gods by Neil Gaiman.



Dark fantasy is also a used a descriptor for people who want to write an obvious bastardization of Tolkien with more rape. For this, see the Dragon Age franchise by Bioware.

[Ortaya Alevli]

Big Blue Car wrote...

Dark fantasy is also a used a descriptor for people who want to write an obvious bastardization of Tolkien with more rape. For this, see the Dragon Age franchise by Bioware.

Duuuuude...

[blothulfur]

Breathe man bioware are only making a game.

[Big Blue Car]

I am breathing, that's how I'm still alive silly-boots! If you disagree with me address my conclusions and explain why, rather than making snide remarks about a subject I obviously take seriously.

[blothulfur]

Nah i'll just bugger off.

[Tsuga C]

Big Blue Car wrote...
Dark fantasy is also a used a descriptor for people who want to write an obvious bastardization of Tolkien with more rape. For this, see the Dragon Age franchise by Bioware.

Let go of the rape fixation.  It's not like BioWare is making one of those weird japanese games where that's the whole objective.  Like perfidy, theft, and murder, rape wasn't exactly unknown in medieval times and BioWare has never tried to glorify it, so let this go already.  

[Big Blue Car]

Yeah rape sure is comparable to perfidy and theft, and murder is a logically supported trope of the genre that you can't really complain about.

It's hilarious that you tell me to let go of the rape fixation, when I'm complaining that others are unable to do that same thing. We want the same thing! It's almost like rape is a hideous thing that is awkward to even discuss, let alone feature in the City Elf origin!

Modifié par Big Blue Car, 09 décembre 2010 - 01:40 .

[Maria Caliban]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

No amount of source I have access to manages to provide me a clear definition of 'dark fantasy', so I'll go with my educated guess and suppose that it roughly means fantasy without pink glasses.

There's a large amount of high, epic, low, sword and sorcery, and contemporary fantasy without 'pink glasses.'

I think the real problem is that you can't compare dark fantasy novels and dark fantasy games because there's no way a game could include the content a dark (or just regular fantasy) fantasy novel has without being slapped AO. I mean, you can have graphic sex scenes in young adult fantasy. You can spend four pages describing how a character drags another into his dungeon, ties him down, and rips out his tongue.

Last night, I picked up The Sad Tale of the Brother's Grossman. The twin brothers, who are graverobbers, start the story by spitting on their mother's grave. They then go to the house of a turnip farmer, pull him out of the house, beat him up, murder his wife and daughter with an axe, slit the throat of his son, and set his house on fire while his two infant children are in their cribs.

This happens within the first 18 pages. These are the two heroes of the novel. And it gets worse.

Could you make a game like this with the player as these brothers? Could it be as graphic as the novel? Would it be completely ignored by government officials or special interests groups? I've heard people say it's a bad novel or a good novel. I've never seen anyone suggest that it would have a bad influence on children, that it should be rated, and no one has suggested it should be kept off book shelves.

So, yes, if you compare Dragon Age to books, it's firmly in the realm of high fantasy. If you want to be fair, you need to compile a list of other games and see how they rank in tone and content. How many other games have prisoners about to be executed for being deserters? How many let you kill children (or their mother) in order to save a village? How many tell you that your cousin has been raped by your human lord or that your younger brother has murdered your older and sent you into exile?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 09 décembre 2010 - 02:01 .

[slimgrin]

DA is high fantasy. Being dark wouldn't make it better anyway.

[Big Blue Car]

slimgrin wrote...

DA is high fantasy. Being dark wouldn't make it better anyway.

Best delete that before the writers read it. This is Marylin Manson, not Enya!

[PsychoBlonde]

DarthCaine wrote...

dbankier wrote...

It was always dark heroic fantasy, anyway, something which everyone always seems to forget.

Heroic yes, most people people wouldn't deny that. But dark? You've gotta be kidding me...

It's about as dark as a CRPG is likely to get without pushing an AO rating, which makes me sigh and shake my head after seeing stuff like the sex mini-game in God of War.  Bioware gets dumped on because they actually try to make their story emotionally affecting instead of just titillating, and there seems to be more tolerance for the titillating stuff.  I don't recall seeing a storm of specific negative publicity when the latest God of War came out, but boy that side-boob in ME . . .   And let's not discuss what happened with Six Days In Fallujah.

But, yeah, they seem to be stuck in this position where they more willing they are to approach issues like rape and pregnancy and torture et al, the less explicit they have to be.  Not to mention that I'm sure the devs want to be tasteful with this sort of thing.

[Big Blue Car]

Ha ha ha. Nothing more tasteful than a huge pool of blood under Leliana's crotch, before she's mocked by the bad guy with "you want more of my men do you?".

Edit: Seriously though this crap is repugnant.

MOD EDIT: Don't circumvent the swear filter.

Modifié par JohnEpler, 09 décembre 2010 - 02:20 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

No amount of source I have access to manages to provide me a clear definition of 'dark fantasy', so I'll go with my educated guess and suppose that it roughly means fantasy without pink glasses.

There's a large amount of high, epic, low, sword and sorcery, and contemporary fantasy without 'pink glasses.'

I think the real problem is that you can't compare dark fantasy novels and dark fantasy games because there's no way a game could include the content a dark fantasy novel has without being slapped AO. I mean, you can have graphic sex scenes in young adult fantasy. You can spend four pages describing how a character drags another into his dungeon, ties him down, and rips out his tongue.

Last night, I picked up The Sad Tale of the Brother's Grossman. The twin brothers, who are graverobbers, start the story by spitting on their mother's grave. They then go to the house of a turnip farmer, pull him out of the house, beat him up, murder his wife and daughter with an axe, slit the throat of his son, and set his house on fire while his two infant children are in their cribs.

This happens within the first 18 pages. These are the two heroes of the novel. And it gets worse.

Could you make a game like this with the player as these brothers? Could it be as graphic as the novel? Would it be completely ignored by government officials or special interests groups? I've heard people say it's a bad novel or a good novel. I've never seen anyone suggest that it would have a bad influence on children, that it should be rated, and no one has suggested it should be kept off book shelves.

So, yes, if you compare Dragon Age to books, it's firmly in the realm of high fantasy. If you want to be fair, you need to compile a list of other games and see how they rank in tone and content. How many other games have prisoners about to be executed for being deserters? How many let you kill children (or their mother) in order to save a village? How many tell you that your cousin has been raped by your human lord or that your younger brother has murdered your older and sent you into exile?

To my experience, comparison is not a suitable means for classification when it comes to genre.

This book you mention, it sounds extremely diabolical and I don't think the range of dark fantasy is limited to such work (not suggesting that's your claim, just to put it out there). It may be, eh, darker fantasy than Origins, but that doesn't mean an artwork should challenge your stomach in order to be classified as dark fantasy, if I'm getting the term right. Anne Rice picks up slightly controversial themes, which are nothing near this The Sad Tale, yet they're still considered dark fantasy.

Now, if merely the inclusion of gothic motifs or classic horror elements is enough to stamp an artwork as dark fantasy, as suggested by many definitions of the term that I stumbled upon, I could say "it has werewolves and darkspawn!" and there you have it. But that means an overwhelming majority of fantasy works is dark fantasy. Origins was based on a medieval fantasy setting, included horror cliches (however with very little emphasis on horror) and dealt with moral themes (with very strong emphasis on morality). I'm by no means an authority on what and what not to call dark fantasy, but there is reason to consider Origins dark fantasy.

[John Epler]

We have a swear filter for a reason. Don't try and circumvent it.

[Blastback]

JohnEpler wrote...

Ha ha ha. Nothing more tasteful than a huge pool of blood under Leliana's crotch, before she's mocked by the bad guy with "you want more of my men do you?".

Edit: Seriously though this crap is repugnant.

MOD EDIT: Don't circumvent the swear filter.

Okay, I just jumped in this thread and saw this without any context, so maybe I missed something.

But what?

[Ortaya Alevli]

Blastback wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Ha ha ha. Nothing more tasteful than a huge pool of blood under Leliana's crotch, before she's mocked by the bad guy with "you want more of my men do you?".

Edit: Seriously though this crap is repugnant.

MOD EDIT: Don't circumvent the swear filter.

Okay, I just jumped in this thread and saw this without any context, so maybe I missed something.

But what?

Wasn't "crap" at first.

[Ziggeh]

Blastback wrote...

Okay, I just jumped in this thread and saw this without any context, so maybe I missed something.

But what?

He's not keen on the use of rape as a literary tool, and rather graphically illustrating why.

While I can sympathise with the sentiment, and perhaps this is a social problem bigger than discussion on a games forum, but it's not a common revulsion. One's personal experience could lead one to have similar feelings for murder, slavery or racism (the last two are used in similar ways, identifiers of your stories ****s), but you can't realistically expect people to avoid them all. It definitely is thrown around a little too easily, but that's largely because a lot of fiction is bad, not just because it's taken too lightly.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 09 décembre 2010 - 02:31 .

[Big Blue Car]

JohnEpler wrote...

We have a swear filter for a reason. Don't try and circumvent it.

Noted. Honest question, and no offence meant because I think you're one of the best for giving actual info, under what morality is swearing unacceptable but deciding to present rape acceptable?

Obv you can ban me for asking or whatever but I would like to know.