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[Blastback]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Blastback wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

Ha ha ha. Nothing more tasteful than a huge pool of blood under Leliana's crotch, before she's mocked by the bad guy with "you want more of my men do you?".

Edit: Seriously though this crap is repugnant.

MOD EDIT: Don't circumvent the swear filter.

Okay, I just jumped in this thread and saw this without any context, so maybe I missed something.

But what?

Wasn't "crap" at first.

No I meant the part about Leliana. 

EDIT: Not that the swear filter doesn't bother me a bit.  I mean, I'm all for civility and I get why you would have it, but given that the ad campain for Origins revolved in part around "This Is The New $&*#!" it does feel a little hypocritical.

Modifié par Blastback, 09 décembre 2010 - 02:32 .

[Ortaya Alevli]

Blastback wrote...

No I meant the part about Leliana. 

Ah, that. Fair enough.

[John Epler]

The content of our games is rather different than the content of our forums. Due to the rather complex and myriad laws regarding the internet and what's acceptable to present thereupon, we try to keep our forums more polite and PG-rated than our games can sometimes be.

[Vylan Antagonist]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Last night, I picked up The Sad Tale of the Brother's Grossman. The twin brothers, who are graverobbers, start the story by spitting on their mother's grave. They then go to the house of a turnip farmer, pull him out of the house, beat him up, murder his wife and daughter with an axe, slit the throat of his son, and set his house on fire while his two infant children are in their cribs.

This happens within the first 18 pages. These are the two heroes of the novel. And it gets worse. 

I don't know that the book ever particularly presents them as heroes. I'd argue that the book started on that note precisely to establish that they are NOT, in fact, heroes by any stretch. From that point forward, they mostly seem to encounter creatures even more loathsome than themselves. Since you just picked it up last night, I won't spoil it, but I will say that the lack of sympathy engendered for the main characters and the book's ending meet some of the criteria for the Motion Pictures Code.

[Big Blue Car]

JohnEpler wrote...

The content of our games is rather different than the content of our forums. Due to the rather complex and myriad laws regarding the internet and what's acceptable to present thereupon, we try to keep our forums more polite and PG-rated than our games can sometimes be.

That's perfectly reasonable and I can see the difference. While you're reading though I'd like to explain that having seen how devastating rape is to actual, real people, seeing a company I respect use it to promote a franchise as 'edgy' and 'mature' makes me feel physically sick and I'd feel remiss if I didn't make a personal plea for you to use whatever clout you have to stop it because whatever marketing or Gaider says, it is genuinely appalling. 

[Blastback]

Big Blue Car wrote...

JohnEpler wrote...

The content of our games is rather different than the content of our forums. Due to the rather complex and myriad laws regarding the internet and what's acceptable to present thereupon, we try to keep our forums more polite and PG-rated than our games can sometimes be.

That's perfectly reasonable and I can see the difference. While you're reading though I'd like to explain that having seen how devastating rape is to actual, real people, seeing a company I respect use it to promote a franchise as 'edgy' and 'mature' makes me feel physically sick and I'd feel remiss if I didn't make a personal plea for you to use whatever clout you have to stop it because whatever marketing or Gaider says, it is genuinely appalling. 

I can agree that rape is all to often used as a "Look at us, we're dark and edgy and mature, because we included rape in our material"!  I'm looking at being a social worker myself, so yeah, I have to agree with this for the most part. 

[hexaligned]

Maria Caliban wrote...

relhart wrote...

I didn't consider DAO to be dark really, I mean visually it was very washed out, and dreary, but story wise it wasn't any darker than your average Brothers Grimm story really. The only part that stands out is the city elf origin, and that was just a vague allusion to rape.

The lead up to the broodmother wasn't dark fantasy?

Good point, I was readng through the thread and a previous poster mentioned it as well... and I had to agree.  It just slipped my mind in the 10 seconds I considered the question while I posted.  I'm sure there are other examples I've forgotten about since I last played DAO too. 

[Blastback]

Edit, never mind, double post.

Modifié par Blastback, 09 décembre 2010 - 02:45 .

[Big Blue Car]

Blastback wrote...
I'm looking at being a social worker myself, so yeah, I have to agree with this for the most part. 

PM sent.

[Perfect-Kenshin]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

 I am kinda worried about how "dark" DA2 will actually be - "Dark Fantasy" does not mean just adding ridiculous gore effects to the game and it definitely is not having a hero who can single-handedly tear hundreds of enemies apart, that's High Fantasy like Lord of the Rings. It's quotes like "Press a button and something awesome happens!" that make me wonder how close you'll stick to a Dark Fantasy theme - Dragon Age:Origins already was very borderline Dark Fantasy a few times.

I am kinda positive that the story will be well-written again (but please, try to include a lot less plot holes!) yet there's still doubts...and the news we yet have aren't helping at all.

Thanks

Dark Fantasy means is gonna be like the Berserk manga. When playing Dragon Age 2, expect to see rape, rape, more rape and horse rape throughout every segment. Also expect all the characters to die 1/20 into the story, except Hawke. Come to think of it, Dragon Age 2 rips off Berserk for stealing the name Hawke.

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 09 décembre 2010 - 03:01 .

[Blastback]

For my money, the way to make a dark fantasy is to really subvert the whole save everyone approach. Have it be often imposible. Have an atmosphere of hoplessness, that no matter what you do, things are going to suck.

[PsychoBlonde]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
It may be, eh, darker fantasy than Origins, but that doesn't mean an artwork should challenge your stomach in order to be classified as dark fantasy, if I'm getting the term right. Anne Rice picks up slightly controversial themes, which are nothing near this The Sad Tale, yet they're still considered dark fantasy.

The rape, drugs, murder, torture, blood, pus, snot and mud you encounter in dark fantasy are more there to set the tone (usually), and you can do this via other means, but having that stuff in there is a big establishing point.  (When an author RELIES EXCLUSIVELY on this instead of really digging into psychological elements, though, you know they're not actually any good at what they do.  THAT's when you accuse them of going for the stomach.)  For instance, the novel I'm currently working on is pretty dark in some respects.  The main character has some superhuman abilities to jump and climb, etc., and I could have had her gracefully leaping from rooftop to rooftop like an overexcited squirrel.  Instead, when I refer to her jumping, she flops, scrabbles, rips off fingernails, slides down steep tiles, gets sooty and filthy and sweaty and exhausted, etc.  It's a very minor difference, but all these small differences eventually add up to an entirely different mood.

The darkness of a given work has more to do with psychological impact than anything.  Bioware is particularly bad at pulling this off because so very many of the characters are lighthearted, wise-cracking types who take nothing very seriously.

Just look at Origins.  Just about the best set-up dark part of that game was the Broodmother encounter, but even then there's NO IMPACT.  You don't have one of the female companions (or your female PC) tell Branka off for what she's done.  (One of the guys could do it just as well, but I have a hard time believing they'd manage to beat the ladies to it.  It's been my personal experience that guys tend to take a bit longer to formulate outrage in those sorts of situations.  I know I sure do, and I have a very "masculine" personality in some respects even though I'm a female.)  Nobody says to you, "uggh, I just can't get over how . . . ughh that was."

Other potential truly dark moments are subverted and trashed by stuff like "a demon made me do it".  The situation with Connor would have been SOOOO much darker and had more psychological impact if, after you've gone through all that crap to fix him (particularly if you killed his mother to do it), it turned out that he knew EXACTLY what he was doing and the "demonic" behavior was his real personality.  The Baroness in Awakening was pretty much the same deal--they set her up as this horrific monster of a person, and then it turns out she's actually a Pride Demon.  Bleh.  It's not particularly dark or horrible when dark, horrible creatures do what comes naturally.  It IS dark and horrific when human beings DECIDE to do those kinds of things of their own free will.

Dark relies on drama, which involves internal as well as external conflicts--psychological impact as well as physical impact, and for the most part games in general and Bioware in particular are kind of mediocre as far as the psychological impact goes.  The medium is still maturing and I think this problem is still going to persist for a while.

[hexaligned]

Rape is just an easy way to depict themes like vulnerability, abuse of power, ect. It was used decently in Origins to give the player a sense of the elves nature and social standing in the setting. It was a metaphor for how their entire race is treated essentially. Most "writers" for video games don't use it as a broader stroke representation of something though, they just throw it in for a cheap gut emotional reaction. Even Bio's writers kind of wussed out in it's delivery. (imo)

Same with the Broodmother and the themes of perversion of natural law behind the Darkspawn.
Your character never sits out on a grassy hill overlooking a woodscape dappled by a setting sun and the approach of stormclouds, contemplating the implications of such things though. In other words you (or your character) never have to face and deal with the larger issues implied.

The setting itself, (and the lore behind it) is on the dark side of things.  I just think the actual game did a really bad job of portraying it.  

Modifié par relhart, 09 décembre 2010 - 03:16 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Blastback wrote...

For my money, the way to make a dark fantasy is to really subvert the whole save everyone approach. Have it be often imposible. Have an atmosphere of hoplessness, that no matter what you do, things are going to suck.

Nah, having it be impossible to save everyone is the lazy way to do it--they did this in Mass Effect and it was more of a dick move than anything.  Make it impossible to save the good, worthwhile people, without ALSO saving some horrendously evil people.  Be the hero.  Save the day.  And the villain gets away.

Also, they need to stop using monsters as the "villain" all the time.  I much prefer the way Tim Burton does this stuff--where the "monster" is often rather sympathetic, while it's the perfectly "ordinary" humans who are the real demons.

[Blastback]

relhart wrote...

Rape is just an easy way to depict themes like vulnerability, abuse of power, ect. It was used decently in Origins to give the player a sense of the elves nature and social standing in the setting. It was a metaphor for how their entire race is treated essentially. Most "writers" for video games don't use it as a broader stroke representation of something though, they just throw it in for a cheap gut emotional reaction. Even Bio's writers kind of wussed out in it's delivery. (imo)

Same with the Broodmother and the themes of perversion of natural law behind the Darkspawn.
Your character never sits out on a grassy hill overlooking a woodscape dappled by a setting sun and the approach of stormclouds, contemplating the implications of such things though. In other words you (or your character) never have to face and deal with the larger issues implied.

Yeah, if you are going to use an issue like rape, you demonstrate the full effects it can have, not just have it happen then only bring it up a few more times.  You should force the audiance to think about all the diffrent ways this horrible event is going to impact the lives of those affected by it.

[Big Blue Car]

/\\/\\
Edit: I disagree. A mainstream, fantasy, entertainment prduct will never be able to present rape without being astoundingly offensive, as we saw in DA:O. However titillating they find it they need to leave it alone and find other ways to show how mature they are and how evil the bad guys are. They need to.

That's totally true that it's weird there's no reaction to the broodmother. It's such a gross perversion of the idea of femininity and reproduction, and has such an atmospheric build up. It's one of the high points of the game in my opinion.

I agree that there are lots of situations where Bioware could have created something truly compelling and effective but minor changes stop it from happening.

Modifié par Big Blue Car, 09 décembre 2010 - 03:22 .

[PsychoBlonde]

relhart wrote...
Even Bio's writers kind of wussed out in it's delivery. (imo)

I'm not sure if they "wussed out", but when I played the city elf origin, my reaction was "eek, they've beat her up a bit, but Shianni's still fully clothed, she'll be fine after we get her bruises fixed up".  I really truly thought they'd just smacked her around a bit and we'd walked in before "anything happened".  I mean, there's tasteful, but if they actually raped her say they freakin' raped her.  I was all set to take the money and get the hell out of dodge with as many of my friends/family as could be managed before we ended up like that girl they just KILLED because she was CRYING.

It also disgusted me that they took the money away from you, too.  You want to make me use a lot of it bribing guards or whatever, fine.  I was planning on giving a large portion of it to Shianni so she could make tracks, but noooooo.

[hexaligned]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

relhart wrote...
Even Bio's writers kind of wussed out in it's delivery. (imo)

I'm not sure if they "wussed out", but when I played the city elf origin, my reaction was "eek, they've beat her up a bit, but Shianni's still fully clothed, she'll be fine after we get her bruises fixed up".  I really truly thought they'd just smacked her around a bit and we'd walked in before "anything happened".  I mean, there's tasteful, but if they actually raped her say they freakin' raped her.  I was all set to take the money and get the hell out of dodge with as many of my friends/family as could be managed before we ended up like that girl they just KILLED because she was CRYING.

It also disgusted me that they took the money away from you, too.  You want to make me use a lot of it bribing guards or whatever, fine.  I was planning on giving a large portion of it to Shianni so she could make tracks, but noooooo.

That was my girls reaction to it as well, I had to go back and replay it just to see if my twisted mind had projected itself on the story or something.  

[Perfect-Kenshin]

relhart wrote...

Rape is just an easy way to depict themes like vulnerability, abuse of power, ect. It was used decently in Origins to give the player a sense of the elves nature and social standing in the setting. It was a metaphor for how their entire race is treated essentially. Most "writers" for video games don't use it as a broader stroke representation of something though, they just throw it in for a cheap gut emotional reaction. Even Bio's writers kind of wussed out in it's delivery. (imo)

I wouldn't say they wussed out. I mean, they did allow you to murder a little boy in front of his mother.

Your character never sits out on a grassy hill overlooking a woodscape dappled by a setting sun and the approach of stormclouds, contemplating the implications of such things though.

I wish they would. That'd be awesome.

As Hawke and the party are traveling (or is there NO TRAVELING in this game?), they notice a storm coming. Bethany insist that they stop on the basis that she doesn't want to get her hair wet. Hawke quickly begins to open his mouth, wanting to point out that Bethany could have simply opted to wear a hat, but then recalls how hideous mage hats look and realizes her refusal to wear one is well justified and makes him more RECOGNIZABLE. Pondering further on the subject, through internal monologue, he questions the implications of Bethany insisting that the entire group stop. Indeed, her actions are anti-democratic. The rest of the party hasn't expressed their opinion. Why should her opinion matter over everyone else's? Or was her selfish outburst otherwise meant to reveal to her brother, the error of democracy?

Perhaps if left up to a vote, the remainder of the party would make a poor decision. But even if so, there is a designated party leader. Was this Bethany's way of usurping her brother's power? Why? Surely she couldn't have been that upset in her and the rest of the party having to leave that Darkspawn stronghold which they fought long and hard to get into that one time, just to accompany him to the other side of country simply because he forget to purchase health polutices and injury kits before arriving.

And should the older brother really question his sister's seemingly selfish outburst? Are not all actions dictated by selfish desire? Is there such a thing as true altruism? Or was Bethany perhaps aware of the elder sibling's developing bicurious urges and was doing her best to hide them from the rest of the party? Perhapsseeing the rain would incline Varric to take his shirt off slowly and gazingly, allowing everyone to see his manly chest hair in all of its glory.

Modifié par Perfect-Kenshin, 09 décembre 2010 - 03:49 .

[Aermas]

The Warhammer Fantasy world is really dark, if you're a mage you will cast a spell, go insane, & die.

If you are a warrior, you will lose a limb, go insane, & die. It's all wonderfully hopeless.

[crimzontearz]

it's funny....



I mostly played my "fatnasy" games set in the WoD. Rape, murder, psychological and physical torture where pretty much common place



characters were damaged, sometimes barely functional because of what happened to them



one of the best ones yet was a very religious girl in the 1300s, god fearing and shy in spite of her beauty. She struck the fancies of one of the vamps in the group who literally tortured her out of renouncing her religion and become first his servant -yes....that kind of servant too- then his pprentice and then his well......bride if you want but not exactly. He indirectly killed off her whole family, plagued her village, exposed her to the fact the local bishop actually forced himself on her own sister years prior by making her watch her memories in her dreams and then took her away when she was too utterly broken to react or resist. Broken as she was she became this player's FAVORITE personal NPC as he worked for several sessions afterward tro re-build her in his image...



I am digressing



the point is that everyone KNEW there would be such content in my games and that they would be directly or indirectly involved in it, if they did not like it they had a choice and that was NOT to play. Just like if I do not like a certain writer I can choose NOT to read her books.



As for me, mature and darker themes are why I enjoy a lot of Bioware's work, above all because I can be a sort of "opposing" force to them even if I can play as a jerk when I need to

[Big Blue Car]

Nothing you described there is mature in the least. If you and your friends want to let your kinks out go for it, but don't pretend it's something to be proud of and for ****s sakes don't tell us about it.

[crimzontearz]

Big Blue Car wrote...

Nothing you described there is mature in the least. If you and your friends want to let your kinks out go for it, but don't pretend it's something to be proud of and for ****s sakes don't tell us about it.

shrugs

de gustibus non desputandum est, my dear friend, DA:V and the whole WoD setting is  personal horror.

You may want to pass as above the rest by stepping up on your lovely moral soap box but the truth behind it all is that  given the way you act around here in a multitude of other threads your credibility broderline 0 degrees Kelvin. And the point remains that, if you do not like how Bioware approaches these themes you are very well free NOT to buy their product just like I will never buy a Meyers book or a Soprano's DVD

Modifié par crimzontearz, 09 décembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Big Blue Car wrote...

Edit: I disagree. A mainstream, fantasy, entertainment prduct will never be able to present rape without being astoundingly offensive, as we saw in DA:O. However titillating they find it they need to leave it alone and find other ways to show how mature they are and how evil the bad guys are. They need to.

Who's this "we"?  You really need to stop generalizing from self so much.  Not to mention generalizing about rape--which is not always the same any more than anything else in life.  There's a HUGE difference between "I was smashed and I think I might have gone overboard with this guy at the party, but I can't remember" and "a stranger broke into my house and beat me half to death".

A friend of mine had a horrifically traumatic experience with home invasion (no actual violence involved, just the threat thereof and some robbery) and frankly I find it offensive to say that *all* rape is inherently worse/more offensive than what happened to her.  Yet break-ins and robbery are portrayed in games all the time, probably 90% of it being done by the player, and nobody's offended.

Oh, and as for mainstream, fantasy, entertainment products not being able to present rape--what about MOVIES?  There are plenty of really well-done movies out there, and plenty of mainstream books as well.  Games need to mature more as a medium, sure--attempts to address serious issues SERIOUSLY are still pretty awkward, but it's improving all the time.  Being dismissive like this is just pointless.

[Big Blue Car]

crimzontearz wrote...

shrugs

de gustibus non desputandum est, my dear friend, DA:V and the whole WoD setting is  personal horror.

You may want to pass as above the rest by stepping up on your lovely moral soap box but the truth behind it all is that  given the way you act around here in a multitude of other threads your credibility broderline 0 degrees Kelvin. And the point remains that, if you do not like how Bioware approaches these themes you are very well free NOT to buy their product just like I will never buy a Meyers book or a Soprano's DVD

Stephanie Meyers writes a lot about sexual domination and personal submission actually, if you can get past the terrible writing (and as a WoD fan I expect you can) there's probably a lot there for you to enjoy. FYI I'm just expressing my opinion, not trying to pass as above the rest in the least, but that said I am better than anyone who gets off on sexual power fantasies. 
Again if you disagree with any point I've made then address it, rather than telling us about your RPG foreplay sessions with fat chicks.