151 réponses à ce sujet

[Aermas]

Big Blue Car wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

shrugs

de gustibus non desputandum est, my dear friend, DA:V and the whole WoD setting is  personal horror.

You may want to pass as above the rest by stepping up on your lovely moral soap box but the truth behind it all is that  given the way you act around here in a multitude of other threads your credibility broderline 0 degrees Kelvin. And the point remains that, if you do not like how Bioware approaches these themes you are very well free NOT to buy their product just like I will never buy a Meyers book or a Soprano's DVD

Stephanie Meyers writes a lot about sexual domination and personal submission actually, if you can get past the terrible writing (and as a WoD fan I expect you can) there's probably a lot there for you to enjoy. FYI I'm just expressing my opinion, not trying to pass as above the rest in the least, but that said I am better than anyone who gets off on sexual power fantasies. 
Again if you disagree with any point I've made then address it, rather than telling us about your RPG foreplay sessions with fat chicks.

You mentioned Stephanie Meyers- Your opinion is now worth zero. 

Modifié par Aermas, 09 décembre 2010 - 04:26 .

[Aermas]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

Edit: I disagree. A mainstream, fantasy, entertainment prduct will never be able to present rape without being astoundingly offensive, as we saw in DA:O. However titillating they find it they need to leave it alone and find other ways to show how mature they are and how evil the bad guys are. They need to.

Who's this "we"?  You really need to stop generalizing from self so much.  Not to mention generalizing about rape--which is not always the same any more than anything else in life.  There's a HUGE difference between "I was smashed and I think I might have gone overboard with this guy at the party, but I can't remember" and "a stranger broke into my house and beat me half to death".

A friend of mine had a horrifically traumatic experience with home invasion (no actual violence involved, just the threat thereof and some robbery) and frankly I find it offensive to say that *all* rape is inherently worse/more offensive than what happened to her.  Yet break-ins and robbery are portrayed in games all the time, probably 90% of it being done by the player, and nobody's offended.

Oh, and as for mainstream, fantasy, entertainment products not being able to present rape--what about MOVIES?  There are plenty of really well-done movies out there, and plenty of mainstream books as well.  Games need to mature more as a medium, sure--attempts to address serious issues SERIOUSLY are still pretty awkward, but it's improving all the time.  Being dismissive like this is just pointless.

Home Invasion can be traumatic, BODILY INVASION IS WORSE. Sorry but no amount of threats & people taking your stuff is equal to someone forcibly.... I'm not going to say.

[crimzontearz]

Big Blue Car wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

shrugs

de gustibus non desputandum est, my dear friend, DA:V and the whole WoD setting is  personal horror.

You may want to pass as above the rest by stepping up on your lovely moral soap box but the truth behind it all is that  given the way you act around here in a multitude of other threads your credibility broderline 0 degrees Kelvin. And the point remains that, if you do not like how Bioware approaches these themes you are very well free NOT to buy their product just like I will never buy a Meyers book or a Soprano's DVD

Stephanie Meyers writes a lot about sexual domination and personal submission actually, if you can get past the terrible writing (and as a WoD fan I expect you can) there's probably a lot there for you to enjoy. FYI I'm just expressing my opinion, not trying to pass as above the rest in the least, but that said I am better than anyone who gets off on sexual power fantasies. 
Again if you disagree with any point I've made then address it, rather than telling us about your RPG foreplay sessions with fat chicks.

ok.....before I head to bed after the lovely bout of laughter you induced I just have to point this out a few things about the bolded parts.

1: there are a LOT of people even "vanillas" as they are usually referred to by others, that do get off on a little power exchange fantasies...there is positively nothing wrong about it as long as it is all safe sane and consensual (yes I quoted the motto.....sue me).  That you consider yourself better than them just because of what they enjoy only proves my point.

2: What I quoted above in my previous post happened around a table not online, everyone had XY chromosomes, the girl was an NPC.......nice try tho, I used to RP online  but it was  often disappointing.

3: I am not attracred by skinny girls, ...erotic RPG, if it came down to it, would be pretty much solely happening with plump girls as far as I am concerned so you can't really get to me with that last attempt. Also  are you implying something about overweight girls?

oh and what the hell..4: I've been married some 6 years now to a lovely plump woman I ment online RPing DA:V. Best 6 years of my life

[PsychoBlonde]

Big Blue Car wrote...

FYI I'm just expressing my opinion, not trying to pass as above the rest in the least, but that said I am better than anyone who gets off on sexual power fantasies.

Methinks the gentleman doth protest too much.  It's been my general experience that guys who say this sort thing are far more twisted up sexually than those who flat-out admit to enjoying a little power fantasy.  If it doesn't do it for you, fine, but that simple fact doesn't make you a good person.

[PsychoBlonde]

Aermas wrote...

Home Invasion can be traumatic, BODILY INVASION IS WORSE. Sorry but no amount of threats & people taking your stuff is equal to someone forcibly.... I'm not going to say.

Oh for crying out loud, will you boys calm down.  I am by no means saying that a break-in followed by rape would not be as bad as a break-in.  I'm saying that not everything that's called rape is actually some horrific disaster and treating it as such is willful blindness.  I know a lot of you young guys build up a lot of your self image about how YOU are nice to women and talking about rape is a BIG SCARY DEAL to you.  I just hope that in five years you haven't transferred over into being out-and-out misogynists because you have your first crazy girlfriend and she does a mind job on you.

If an actual woman comes on here and talks about how SHE finds a given presentation of rape offensive/dark/whatever, THAT I will take seriously.  But treating women like some sort of helpless and hopeless eternal victim who has to be defended by Nice Guys Like You is just pathetic. 

[vampsrock9988]

Big Blue Car wrote...

How come 'dark fantasy' writers always have such a hardon for rape?

.

To me, this is sort of like asking: "How come racing games have such a hard-on for fast, shiny cars?"

Rape is dark.  It is evil and wrong.  It is visceral.  It wakes people up to the situation.  Of course so do the other things covered in the game.  Murder, for example.  Loved ones and precious family cut down in cold blood before your eyes. These are both covered in the city elf origin, and are both serve as motivations for that particular city elf to make his/her mark on the world as a Grey Warden, whether it is for betterment, revenge, or indifference.

Just because these things are by their very nature, wicked, does not mean they are not ample writing fodder.  As a writer, you use things that will resonate with an audience, things both good and evil.

As for the discussion of arousal from these situations, I'd prefer to stay out of that topic. 

[Big Blue Car]

lol crimson tearz what the frak. when someone online calls you a gorean nerd who digs fat chicks you aren't supposed to confirm everything as true.

You guys can bdsm all you want, I already said that however people get their kinks out is fine by me as long as I don't have to hear about it. But fyi if you cant see the difference between consenting people playing power games and actually getting off on the idea of violent sexual assault then get yourself checked out.

Seriously I was talking about actual rape and it's not comparable to bdsm **** in the slightest way, acting as though it is is far more offensive, provocative and insulting than you realise and you shouldn't do it in future, no matter what the context. 

Modifié par Big Blue Car, 09 décembre 2010 - 04:44 .

[Big Blue Car]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Oh for crying out loud, will you boys calm down.  I am by no means saying that a break-in followed by rape would not be as bad as a break-in.  I'm saying that not everything that's called rape is actually some horrific disaster and treating it as such is willful blindness.  I know a lot of you young guys build up a lot of your self image about how YOU are nice to women and talking about rape is a BIG SCARY DEAL to you.  I just hope that in five years you haven't transferred over into being out-and-out misogynists because you have your first crazy girlfriend and she does a mind job on you.

If an actual woman comes on here and talks about how SHE finds a given presentation of rape offensive/dark/whatever, THAT I will take seriously.  But treating women like some sort of helpless and hopeless eternal victim who has to be defended by Nice Guys Like You is just pathetic. 

See you're talking about power games, I'm talking about rape. Stop comparing them you infant.

[slimgrin]

crimzontearz wrote...

oh and what the hell..4: I've been married some 6 years now to a lovely plump woman I ment online RPing DA:V. Best 6 years of my life

Possibly the coolest thing I've read on this forum.

Cheers to plump girls. 

[PsychoBlonde]

vampsrock9988 wrote...
As for the discussion of arousal from these situations, I'd prefer to stay out of that topic. 

Yeah, that's not really suitable for this discussion, but I agree with you overall. 

It's interesting to me that in games murder is so often treated as a "fix it" button (or a "kick the dog" moment) rather than a serious situation requiring some thought, though.  One of my favorite games (and one that actually merits the title "dark fantasy") that does something unusual about kiling people is Gothic (and Gothic II, and Risen-the-Gothic-remake).  You can attack and fight people as a problem solution but you don't actually kill them (and if you do actually kill them, in public, you'll take a huge reputation hit with everyone who saw you, those of them who are armed will ATTACK you, and you won't be able to speak with any of them afterwards).  They won't actually kill YOU, either, just knock you over, take some of your stuff, and walk off.  (There are a few who have gone completely around the bend who will fight you to the death, but it's pretty rare and plot-specific.)

It's actually quite interesting to have to deal with people after you've smacked them around a bunch.  Some bluster about it, some are fearful--it's a VERY cool mechanic and well-implemented.

I wonder whether in DAII, when we're fighting Qunari, if they're just going to be treated like you're fighting darkspawn--as faceless, nameless mooks.  I would find this a bit of a letdown, personally, and would like at least some attempt at in-game reminders that these are MEN you're fighting, not vermin or crazed/mindless quasi-demonic monstrosities.

[Bryy_Miller]

Aermas wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

shrugs

de gustibus non desputandum est, my dear friend, DA:V and the whole WoD setting is  personal horror.

You may want to pass as above the rest by stepping up on your lovely moral soap box but the truth behind it all is that  given the way you act around here in a multitude of other threads your credibility broderline 0 degrees Kelvin. And the point remains that, if you do not like how Bioware approaches these themes you are very well free NOT to buy their product just like I will never buy a Meyers book or a Soprano's DVD

Stephanie Meyers writes a lot about sexual domination and personal submission actually, if you can get past the terrible writing (and as a WoD fan I expect you can) there's probably a lot there for you to enjoy. FYI I'm just expressing my opinion, not trying to pass as above the rest in the least, but that said I am better than anyone who gets off on sexual power fantasies. 
Again if you disagree with any point I've made then address it, rather than telling us about your RPG foreplay sessions with fat chicks.

You mentioned Stephanie Meyers- Your opinion is now worth zero. 

Why?

[vampsrock9988]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

vampsrock9988 wrote...
As for the discussion of arousal from these situations, I'd prefer to stay out of that topic. 

Yeah, that's not really suitable for this discussion, but I agree with you overall. 

It's interesting to me that in games murder is so often treated as a "fix it" button (or a "kick the dog" moment) rather than a serious situation requiring some thought, though.  One of my favorite games (and one that actually merits the title "dark fantasy") that does something unusual about kiling people is Gothic (and Gothic II, and Risen-the-Gothic-remake).  You can attack and fight people as a problem solution but you don't actually kill them (and if you do actually kill them, in public, you'll take a huge reputation hit with everyone who saw you, those of them who are armed will ATTACK you, and you won't be able to speak with any of them afterwards).  They won't actually kill YOU, either, just knock you over, take some of your stuff, and walk off.  (There are a few who have gone completely around the bend who will fight you to the death, but it's pretty rare and plot-specific.)

It's actually quite interesting to have to deal with people after you've smacked them around a bunch.  Some bluster about it, some are fearful--it's a VERY cool mechanic and well-implemented.

I wonder whether in DAII, when we're fighting Qunari, if they're just going to be treated like you're fighting darkspawn--as faceless, nameless mooks.  I would find this a bit of a letdown, personally, and would like at least some attempt at in-game reminders that these are MEN you're fighting, not vermin or crazed/mindless quasi-demonic monstrosities.

Violence and murder in video games is expected, and we become so de-sensitized to it that when we see things that are taboo, sometimes we fly off the handle.  Sometimes.  Yes, I do like certain games that remind you that this is someone's life your taking, human and irreplaceable.  Assassin's Creed immediately comes to mind.  Darkspawn, however, can eat my blade:devil:

[slimgrin]

Lord, Twilight has been brought up. Time for me to leave. Thread is tainted.

[vampsrock9988]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Aermas wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

shrugs

de gustibus non desputandum est, my dear friend, DA:V and the whole WoD setting is  personal horror.

You may want to pass as above the rest by stepping up on your lovely moral soap box but the truth behind it all is that  given the way you act around here in a multitude of other threads your credibility broderline 0 degrees Kelvin. And the point remains that, if you do not like how Bioware approaches these themes you are very well free NOT to buy their product just like I will never buy a Meyers book or a Soprano's DVD

Stephanie Meyers writes a lot about sexual domination and personal submission actually, if you can get past the terrible writing (and as a WoD fan I expect you can) there's probably a lot there for you to enjoy. FYI I'm just expressing my opinion, not trying to pass as above the rest in the least, but that said I am better than anyone who gets off on sexual power fantasies. 
Again if you disagree with any point I've made then address it, rather than telling us about your RPG foreplay sessions with fat chicks.

You mentioned Stephanie Meyers- Your opinion is now worth zero. 

Why?

I myself uttterly loathe the Twilight series, but this really isn't the place to discuss Miss Meyers and her writing.

[Jester8183]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

I wonder whether in DAII, when we're fighting Qunari, if they're just going to be treated like you're fighting darkspawn--as faceless, nameless mooks.  I would find this a bit of a letdown, personally, and would like at least some attempt at in-game reminders that these are MEN you're fighting, not vermin or crazed/mindless quasi-demonic monstrosities.

I don't know.  Given how different the qunari look (with the horns and all) I could see it as vary easy to lose sight that they are intelligent beings and not demons.  But I am with you there: I hope they find a way to humanize the qunari so that slaughtering them isn't something you can do with a shrug (I had a good friend who was a(n?) qunari).

Though that may be difficult if they are the main opposition.  Here's hoping that you have the option of siding with the Qunari instead of just having to attack them on sight.

[Ortaya Alevli]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
It may be, eh, darker fantasy than Origins, but that doesn't mean an artwork should challenge your stomach in order to be classified as dark fantasy, if I'm getting the term right. Anne Rice picks up slightly controversial themes, which are nothing near this The Sad Tale, yet they're still considered dark fantasy.

The rape, drugs, murder, torture, blood, pus, snot and mud you encounter in dark fantasy are more there to set the tone (usually), and you can do this via other means, but having that stuff in there is a big establishing point.  (When an author RELIES EXCLUSIVELY on this instead of really digging into psychological elements, though, you know they're not actually any good at what they do.  THAT's when you accuse them of going for the stomach.)  For instance, the novel I'm currently working on is pretty dark in some respects.  The main character has some superhuman abilities to jump and climb, etc., and I could have had her gracefully leaping from rooftop to rooftop like an overexcited squirrel.  Instead, when I refer to her jumping, she flops, scrabbles, rips off fingernails, slides down steep tiles, gets sooty and filthy and sweaty and exhausted, etc.  It's a very minor difference, but all these small differences eventually add up to an entirely different mood.

The darkness of a given work has more to do with psychological impact than anything.  Bioware is particularly bad at pulling this off because so very many of the characters are lighthearted, wise-cracking types who take nothing very seriously.

Just look at Origins.  Just about the best set-up dark part of that game was the Broodmother encounter, but even then there's NO IMPACT.  You don't have one of the female companions (or your female PC) tell Branka off for what she's done.  (One of the guys could do it just as well, but I have a hard time believing they'd manage to beat the ladies to it.  It's been my personal experience that guys tend to take a bit longer to formulate outrage in those sorts of situations.  I know I sure do, and I have a very "masculine" personality in some respects even though I'm a female.)  Nobody says to you, "uggh, I just can't get over how . . . ughh that was."

Other potential truly dark moments are subverted and trashed by stuff like "a demon made me do it".  The situation with Connor would have been SOOOO much darker and had more psychological impact if, after you've gone through all that crap to fix him (particularly if you killed his mother to do it), it turned out that he knew EXACTLY what he was doing and the "demonic" behavior was his real personality.  The Baroness in Awakening was pretty much the same deal--they set her up as this horrific monster of a person, and then it turns out she's actually a Pride Demon.  Bleh.  It's not particularly dark or horrible when dark, horrible creatures do what comes naturally.  It IS dark and horrific when human beings DECIDE to do those kinds of things of their own free will.

Dark relies on drama, which involves internal as well as external conflicts--psychological impact as well as physical impact, and for the most part games in general and Bioware in particular are kind of mediocre as far as the psychological impact goes.  The medium is still maturing and I think this problem is still going to persist for a while.

While I think Origins can technically considered dark fantasy, how well they managed to pull that off from an artistic viewpoint is subject to rigorous debate (which, mind you, is completely out of my league). The overall writing may not have shined as far as dramatic value is concerned; there are an exorbitant amount of missed opportunities and one almost thinks if these were intentional sacrifices at the expense of general entertainment mentality (discussion over the circle tower option in the Connor quest comes to mind). Granted, story and storytelling are totally diverse elements. Although I found ME2's story rather weak, for example, I noticed quite a few outstanding moves in the name of impressive storytelling. Delivery is a complex process which involves a sheer number of components, from art direction to gameplay features to even strategically placed physical objects.

Anyway, BioWare would do well to work on the delivery aspect, if only to do justice to their brilliant writers. I have no reason to be pessimistic about that, though; videogames develop in many more dimensions compared to, say, books, and even a simple renegade interrupt can make a lot of difference, for instance.

And about the darned "rape" issue, it would be much appreciated if certain people stopped talking like BioWare is establishing their marketing strategy upon promotion of rape. Thanks in advance.

[PsychoBlonde]

Big Blue Car wrote...

See you're talking about power games, I'm talking about rape. Stop comparing them you infant.

No, I'm actually talking about rape.  I went to college with a lot of--shall we say--interesting people, and I heard a lot of stuff I kind of wish I hadn't--but it takes a LOT of time, thought, and maturity to sort the truth from the lies and arrive at a mature perspective on all that junk, and I'll tell you flat out that anyone who can say something like this certainly hasn't done any of that.

I could go on enumerating and listing the--ah--interesting situations and their fallout that I've had to deal with over the years, but frankly you tire me so I'm going to go see if there's a squelch option.

[vampsrock9988]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

While I think Origins can technically considered dark fantasy, how well they managed to pull that off from an artistic viewpoint is subject to rigorous debate (which, mind you, is completely out of my league). The overall writing may not have shined as far as dramatic value is concerned; there are an exorbitant amount of missed opportunities and one almost thinks if these were intentional sacrifices at the expense of general entertainment mentality (discussion over the circle tower option in the Connor quest comes to mind). Granted, story and storytelling are totally diverse elements. Although I found ME2's story rather weak, for example, I noticed quite a few outstanding moves in the name of impressive storytelling. Delivery is a complex process which involves a sheer number of components, from art direction to gameplay features to even strategically placed physical objects.

Anyway, BioWare would do well to work on the delivery aspect, if only to do justice to their brilliant writers. I have no reason to be pessimistic about that, though; videogames develop in many more dimensions compared to, say, books, and even a simple renegade interrupt can make a lot of difference, for instance.

And about the darned "rape" issue, it would be much appreciated if certain people stopped talking like BioWare is establishing their marketing strategy upon promotion of rape. Thanks in advance.

This.

[PsychoBlonde]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Why?

New permutation on the Hitler rule, I guess.

[Bryy_Miller]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Why?

New permutation on the Hitler rule, I guess.

The idea that somehow Twilight is not literature is stupid. The idea that its vampires are not vampires is stupid. Of course they are vampires, in the confines of that series.

[vampsrock9988]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

I just want to came to at least have some scary bits! Stuff that makes me dread re-playing, or even better, jump out of my seat.

I suggest Dead Space.  Mwahaha!  Or the older Silent Hill games.

[vampsrock9988]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

The idea that somehow Twilight is not literature is stupid. The idea that its vampires are not vampires is stupid. Of course they are vampires, in the confines of that series.

No one made that claim.

[Big Blue Car]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Big Blue Car wrote...

See you're talking about power games, I'm talking about rape. Stop comparing them you infant.

No, I'm actually talking about rape.  I went to college with a lot of--shall we say--interesting people, and I heard a lot of stuff I kind of wish I hadn't--but it takes a LOT of time, thought, and maturity to sort the truth from the lies and arrive at a mature perspective on all that junk, and I'll tell you flat out that anyone who can say something like this certainly hasn't done any of that.

I could go on enumerating and listing the--ah--interesting situations and their fallout that I've had to deal with over the years, but frankly you tire me so I'm going to go see if there's a squelch option.

I really shouldn't care what some ignorant person on the internet says, but whatever. I've already said in this thread that I volunteer as a mentor for deprived and abused children, and have done for two years, and I'm telling you that rape is a real thing that affects real people and can devastate their lives.

The fact that you think social fallout from it and "sorting the truth from the lies," is even worth mentioning is disgusting. The fact that you compare it to sexual play is pathetic. 

Modifié par Big Blue Car, 09 décembre 2010 - 05:08 .