150 réponses à ce sujet

[Renzatic]

Jez_fr wrote...

Renzatic, welcome around =)


These are not "holy bible" rules, more like relatively accurate and considered serious or tested warnings. Hope this helps =)

Hey, glad to be here.

And yes, that does help tremendously. I doubt I'll be making any single object that goes anywhere near 50k tris, or use a bunch of 2048x textures, but it's nice to know just how much play I have with the engine. Basically, I have a helluva lot more room than I thought I did.

Got one more dumb question for you all. This one concerning alpha textures. Now I know how to apply them so the engine sees them. That's easy enough. My question revolves around transluscencies instead of flat out transparencies. Or more simply, can the engine see shades of grey in the alpha, or am I stuck using black and white?

The reason I'm asking is because of this..



This is a shot of just the alpha of a texture I'm working on. Notice the little haze around it?  I added some really light grey and blended it in to soften the transition a bit. You barely notice it when you have stuff around it, and it makes things look a little cleaner. Can NWN handle that?

Also that looks kinda cool by itself.

Modifié par Renzatic, 11 décembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[Zwerkules]

It's not used very often, but NWN can handle it. It is used in some foliage and window textures.
You'll just run into a little problem if you got two of those textures overlapping. NWN doesn't handle overlapping textures with an alpha well, even if you link them to the animation node you'll get what the peole at the DLA forum called a cookie cutter effect.
http://ccg.animecafe...a_Punch_Through

Modifié par Zwerkules, 11 décembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[Renzatic]

Good deal.

Guess I need to make some trees now.

Edit: Okay, if I'm following you here, this means that for something like a pine tree with multiple layers of leaf textures, only the layer closest to the camera will show through the alpha correctly, and any other alphas below that one will give you the cookie cutter effect?

That's kinda rough. I'll have to make my trees alot more sparse to keep things from looking weird.

Modifié par Renzatic, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:06 .

[Eradrain]

Here's an idea - Instead of just sparse trees, why not make an underlayer of foliage without an alpha layer, and then put the 50%-opacity alpha layered stuff on top of that? No one will really be able to see the stuff underneath it unless they look closely enough that they might as well be picking up pixels anyway, and you won't have to sacrifice on foliage density.  Because you're only working with one alpha layer, you can avoid the cookie-cutter effect, but because the nice tree cover is masking the un-alpha'd one, nobody will be able to pick up on what's underneath.

Modifié par Eradrain, 11 décembre 2010 - 02:30 .

[_six]

Renzatic wrote...

Edit: Okay, if I'm following you here, this means that for something like a pine tree with multiple layers of leaf textures, only the layer closest to the camera will show through the alpha correctly, and any other alphas below that one will give you the cookie cutter effect?

No... This one is kinda hard to explain...

NWN models are all parented to a single dummy (named the same as the model file name, without the extension) and each mesh is rendered in order of its position within the model - the ones at the top of the file first, with the ones that come after rendered after. Transparency within a model will be handled correctly if and only if the nodes are ordered correctly. For example, for a pine tree model to render correctly, each 'tier' of branches should ideally be a seperate object, linked in ascending order from the ground up.

I don't know what export solution you'll be using, but in NWMax to set up this render order all you need to do is unlink all objects, and then re-link them in the order you want to an AuroraBase object (which is what you'll use to export the model from max).

This trick works perfectly for handling transparency within most objects, and within objects of the same type. So if you have a pine tree on one tile, it should almost always render the tile behind it correctly too. However there may still be issues when it comes to objects like creatures and placeable objects. Most of the time, for objects that have a very high contrast alpha, it's probably safe to just ignore these issues, but if you have something like a window or a water plane you'll want to set it up so it can display the characters beneath it. In order to do this you can create a dummy named "a" and attach any nodes you want to be rendered last there. This means they'll be rendered even after all other models in the scene, even ones that aren't part of the same model. Try to use that sparingly though, as nodes parented to it don't seem to be rendered in any particular order, and you don't want to mess with multiple layers that way.

Modifié par _six, 11 décembre 2010 - 04:56 .

[Zwerkules]

I guess I can't explain what I meant with two textures overlapping without the help of a screenshot.



These houses are taken from NWN2 and in NWN2 the whole house except for the windows is one object with one texture, not made of several objects with different textures like NWN1 houses.
If you look at the roofs you will see the transparent edges of the reeds overlap with other parts of the roof and the effect this causes in game because they are all part of the same object.
You can avoid that problem if you do what Six suggested.
I haven't fixed those roofs yet, but I guess if I isolate the faces with the transparent parts of the textures and put all of those that are at the same level of the roof in separate objects so there's no overlapping within one object any more, the roofs might be fixed. Very tedious work, so I haven't done so yet.

Modifié par Zwerkules, 11 décembre 2010 - 11:11 .

[Renzatic]

 Eradrain : Yeah, I could do that. It'd make for some simple, quick foliage off in a place where the camera wouldn't usually swing. It wouldn't work for everything though, specially since I'll need to do alot of scraggly foliage to make things look the way I want them to.

Six: I think I get the jist of what you're saying, that it's all hierarchy based, and if it's set up correctly, it'll render all the alphas in the tile properly. I think this is something I'll have to experience firsthand before I can say I really understand it, though. Right now, you could say I got the theory down, but the execution still has me a little confused.

On a good note, I managed to dig up an old as ancient trial CD of Max 5.1, so I'll be able to use NWScript. I think my next step should be figuring out how to get my tiles ingame, instead of building more and more, then getting stumped because I'm trying to import a bunch of overly complicated objects.

Edit

Zwerkules: damn your ninja posting

Actually, other than the thatch in the middle being discolored, I don't see any problems with the alphas in that shot.

But the way it sounds, it isn't so hard to fix as long as the alphas are on separate objects. Considering all my branches and bushes will be just that, it shouldn't be too too difficult to get around. 

Edit 2

Man, I remember why I hated Max. Getting .obj files into it has been like pulling teeth. I can export as an .fbx file, but that destroys my UV, and flips all my faces.

GWAAAAH. I'll figure this out. I just had to vent.

Modifié par Renzatic, 12 décembre 2010 - 04:15 .

[Renzatic]

Well, after alot of struggling, I've finally managed to get my tiles and depot into Max. It wasn't a fun experience. And after reading a few tutorials, I've come to realize that I've got alot to learn before I get my stuff ingame.

So unless I intend on boring you all to tears with all the little details of my learning experiences, I guess I'll be running silent for the next few days. Once I get a few tiles ingame, or have some really important question to ask, I'll be back.

I'll be lurking in the meantime. And thanks again for all the help thus far.

edit: but before I head out to slog on the less fun aspects of game editing, I whipped my first tree together in Max to learn the interface (I still hate it). This is the little scene I made to show em off...



At 440 tris, they're a little expensive at the moment. I need to get em down to around 350ish, and make them not not quite so goofy when viewed from the side.

Modifié par Renzatic, 13 décembre 2010 - 07:46 .

[Calvinthesneak]

I think they look pretty good compared to some of the trees you see. My only question is if you have tiles full of them how heavily are they going to hit system performance?

[Jez_fr]

Renzatic, be brave! Again, very nice start. Can't wait to see the rest =)

[_six]

Well they certainly look a lot better than my trees, which are more like 1000 faces each - so I'd say you still have quite a bit of room to increase the detail. Though I agree, from first glance, your current model may well fall to pieces from a lower camera angle. Very nice work, though.

Modifié par _six, 13 décembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[Renzatic]

 

Calvinthesneak wrote...
I think they look pretty good compared to some of the trees you see. My only question is if you have tiles full of them how heavily are they going to hit system performance?

Well, if they are about half the polycount of Six's trees, I could (in theory) have double the amount at the same performance hit. Not that'd I do that with this particular tree. They're too dense when you put them together en masse.

Jez_fr wrote...

Renzatic, be brave! Again, very nice start. Can't wait to see the rest =)

Thanks again. I can't wait to show off the finished product...that's still a ways in the future, at the pace I'm going.

_six wrote...

Well they certainly look a lot better than my trees, which are more like 1000 faces each - so I'd say you still have quite a bit of room to increase the detail. Though I agree, from first glance, your current model may well fall to pieces from a lower camera angle. Very nice work, though.

I dunno if they look better than your trees. I consider your stuff, and the guy who did the Mirkwood/Boggy Swamp tilesets as the NWN gold standards. I mean mine look pretty decent from that angle, but once you push the camera in steeper, they do sorta fall apart. From up above, they look full and lush. From the sides, they look like Dr. Seuss trees.

But if you have over a thousand tris on your trees (I thought they were about 300 from looking at them in NWNExplorer), then I'm not so worried about pushing the polycount at least a little higher. When I was playing around with your tilesets, the performance was nice and smooth even after I loaded it down with extra tree placables from the CEP. I could probably bring it up to 600-700 tris and still have enough room for other relatively high poly objects.

[_six]

Renzatic wrote...

But if you have over a thousand tris on your trees (I thought they were about 300 from looking at them in NWNExplorer), then I'm not so worried about pushing the polycount at least a little higher

Oh, the trees I was referring to were my pine trees which aren't in any of my tilesets yet (just made them as placeables for Project Q). Though my main issue was that I modelled each branch individually rather than using the more umbrella like approach. That said I've tested them ingame and even at that poly count there doesn't seem to be too much lag.

[Eradrain]

Honestly, it's really not a problem. I've made areas with half a thousand placeables without encountering any lag except during the loading process, and each individual placeable was anywhere from 300 to 3000 faces. That's without even counting the polycount of the tileset models.

It's good to err on the side of caution, so that people with older computers can enjoy your work, but don't sacrifice your artistic vision for it, and definitely don't worry. 400 faces for a tree is extremely manageable. I've seen areas built with multiple 12,500-poly helicopter models and they ran just fine.

My one concern is the scaling of that scene you've rendered. Someone like Six should correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe 1 tile is 10x10 meters in-game. If the scene is supposed to be one tile (And I assume it is just based on how neatly it all fits into the one perfect square), you might find that the train depot and trees end being extremely small in-game. More like a shack and saplings.

Modifié par Eradrain, 13 décembre 2010 - 09:51 .

[Renzatic]

Alright. I won't worry over adding a little more, but I'll still try to keep it under 750 or so. Maybe less if I can get away with it, and still keep things looking good.



Eradrain: This is actually a 2x2 tileset, and each tile is 10 meters length and width (or at least it is in Modo. The way things are looking, I might have to scale it back up in Max). I even have a 1.8m tall block that I use to represent a person to make sure everything is proportional. Knock on wood, but I'm pretty sure I'm solid on that front.

[Renzatic]

This took way longer than it should've, but...here we go

The Final Trees

608 tris. If it looks as good as this in NWN, I'll be happy.

Modifié par Renzatic, 14 décembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Zwerkules]

Those trees look great. They already looked good in the previous screenshot, except that the tips of the tree tops looked a bit unnatural, but now you have fixed that and made the trees a bit more dense.

Those are certainly some of the best trees for NWN1 I have seen.

[Lord Sullivan]

Looking Good, how do they look at a lower horizontal view?... can you show us another shot?

[Renzatic]

 Sure can.

Side Shot.

And for anyone who wants to see the individual parts...

Here you go.

The little model on the bottom left is the high poly branch I used for the base texture. I couldn't find anything good to use on CGTextures or Myang's or anywhere else, so I went ahead and whipped one up myself. I baked it out with shadows, the alpha, the AO, ect, and used that instead. Turned out alot better than what I thought it would.

Modifié par Renzatic, 14 décembre 2010 - 08:17 .

[Calvinthesneak]

Those are some sick trees man. I worked in the forest industry for quite a number of years and I can say those are pretty natural looking trees, at least as much as possible as you can get without uniquely designing each one. The taper is off a little, but it's not enough to be seriously noticible unless you nitpick.



I really wanna see some tiles from you now, the work looks very very good so far.

[Lord Sullivan]

Very good Renzatic, now you only need to make an extra texture with leaves for summer theme

[Renzatic]

 

Calvinthesneak wrote...
The taper is off a little, but it's not enough to be seriously noticible unless you nitpick.

Yeah, I couldn't get a more realistic taper to look quite right. I tried doing some branches angled down a little steeper without any lift in the middle, but it ended up looking too flat and out of place. I just finally settled on what you see in my shots there. It's a little...er...fluffy, but it fits in well with the rest.

Hopefully no one else notices.

Lord Sullivan wrote...

now you only need to make an extra texture with leaves for summer theme

I could probably swing that. I'm already planning on doing a deep snow set using the same tiles to go along with the story I've got worked out. Doing a summer set wouldn't be too hard, specially since it'd mostly just be a texture swap.

Okay, next up I'm starting on a grass clump and a bush, then I'll be porting all this ingame. I want to get at least a couple of alpha mapped models in there so I can play with the nodal hierarchy alpha cookie cutter thingamajig.

[Renzatic]

 

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

a Tile in NWN is 10 meters by 10 meters. Period. If your objects are larger in either "X" or "Y" direction then you must slice them at the 10 meter mark. Height doesn't seem to be much of an issue, but 10 meter tall buildings are very rare, even in today's world with the exception of the bigger cities. (Yes, I know, there are arguments about that, but consider the reality of your own home, or your neighbors home, again, excluding bigger cities or apartment buildings etc).

Okay, quick question about this. When you say 10 meters, do you mean to say that no object can be more than 10 meters in length and height, or that no object can cross over the 10 meter mark as defined by the tiles?

This is my current 2x2 tile setup without any of the frills.



(littke aside...Yeah, it says 2km, but that's because measurements are off between Modo and Max by a factor of 10. It'll be 20m x 20m in Max).

Now my depot is longer than 10m. I can slice it in half and fix that no problem. But it's not wider than 10m. So does that mean I just slice it in the middle and fix it, or do I have to slice it both length and width to align with the cuts on the tiles below it?

Edit: and when you say sliced, do you mean an added row of edges, or unweld the vertices at the 10m mark?

Modifié par Renzatic, 17 décembre 2010 - 04:35 .

[_six]

The only real restriction with the 10m mark is that your walkmesh must not go over 500cm on either the X or Y axis. You should also make sure you have no overlapping on the walkmesh (think of it like draping a cloth over the scene). The rest of the model can pretty much do whatever it likes - just so long as you can get it to look right in the tileset system. I regularly drop bushes and other low-profile decoration off the edges of tiles which helps get rid of the tiled look somewhat.

Modifié par _six, 17 décembre 2010 - 04:37 .

[Renzatic]

_six wrote...

The only real restriction with the 10m mark is that your walkmesh must not go over 500cm on either the X or Y axis. You should also make sure you have no overlapping on the walkmesh (think of it like draping a cloth over the scene). The rest of the model can pretty much do whatever it likes - just so long as you can get it to look right in the tileset system. I regularly drop bushes and other low-profile decoration off the edges of tiles which helps get rid of the tiled look somewhat.

Not quite sure I follow you on the "over 500cm on either the X or Y". Are you saying it can't go 500cm over the 10mm mark, or each walkmesh can't be more than that (which means you'll have a minimum 4 walkmeshes per tile)?

Everything else seems pretty good though. I think it's about time I start getting all this ingame.