276 réponses à ce sujet

[Ortaya Alevli]

It got worse in Awakening, you know. Grievous Insult? Spirit Burst? Massacre?

And that's why I'd like rogues to become rogues again. Nerfing them skillwise and turning them into juggernauts of destruction just nets you a fighter with another class description. Not even worthy of the name anymore.

[Ryzaki]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

It got worse in Awakening, you know. Grievous Insult? Spirit Burst? Massacre?
And that's why I'd like rogues to become rogues again. Nerfing them skillwise and turning them into juggernauts of destruction just nets you a fighter with another class description. Not even worthy of the name anymore.

Yeah my reaction to Awakening was a "....I'm not touching that." 

And yes rogues should be rogues. They resort to dirty tricks because they can't take a lot of heat in a battle.

And honestly if BW is going to make rogues warrior's in all but name Warrior's should be able to lockpick damnit! *Yes I'm on that again* 

[Ortaya Alevli]

Ryzaki wrote...

And honestly if BW is going to make rogues warrior's in all but name Warrior's should be able to lockpick damnit! *Yes I'm on that again* 

Warrior: Me will crush you! Crush you to goo!
Mook: Dude, cut the simpleton act. Your lockpick is hanging.
Mage: Oh crap. You can't even hide a stupid lockpick in that massive armor?
Warrior: Quit your nagging, willya? I'm humiliated here alright.
Mage: Scoundrel Bob could hide his anytime he wished, and he was always in skimpy leather.
Warrior: So? He's not here anymore, is he? You always have to bring that up.
Mage: That's because idiots like you can pick locks now and rogues can fight just as well, so they aren't rogues anymore.
Warrior: No, that's because you always loved him.
Mage: You're such a dork.
Mook 2: Shall we attack already?
Mook: What's the point? Shut up and enjoy the show.

[Ryzaki]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
Warrior: Me will crush you! Crush you to goo!
Mook: Dude, cut the simpleton act. Your lockpick is hanging.
Mage: Oh crap. You can't even hide a stupid lockpick in that massive armor?
Warrior: Quit your nagging, willya? I'm humiliated here alright.
Mage: Scoundrel Bob could hide his anytime he wished, and he was always in skimpy leather.
Warrior: So? He's not here anymore, is he? You always have to bring that up.
Mage: That's because idiots like you can pick locks now and rogues can fight just as well, so they aren't rogues anymore.
Warrior: No, that's because you always loved him.
Mage: You're such a dork.
Mook 2: Shall we attack already?
Mook: What's the point? Shut up and enjoy the show.

Warrior and Mage banter. They know they want each other. <3

Though yeah there's little difference now. And the lack of ranged abilities so far from Warriors to me is just...urgh. /shuts up before she goes on a tangent about how warriors should be able to use bows.

Plus Dude Hawke sounds smart. He shouldn't be a "hulk smash".

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 décembre 2010 - 10:02 .

[nightcobra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ortaya Alevli wrote...
Warrior: Me will crush you! Crush you to goo!
Mook: Dude, cut the simpleton act. Your lockpick is hanging.
Mage: Oh crap. You can't even hide a stupid lockpick in that massive armor?
Warrior: Quit your nagging, willya? I'm humiliated here alright.
Mage: Scoundrel Bob could hide his anytime he wished, and he was always in skimpy leather.
Warrior: So? He's not here anymore, is he? You always have to bring that up.
Mage: That's because idiots like you can pick locks now and rogues can fight just as well, so they aren't rogues anymore.
Warrior: No, that's because you always loved him.
Mage: You're such a dork.
Mook 2: Shall we attack already?
Mook: What's the point? Shut up and enjoy the show.

Warrior and Mage banter. They know they want each other. <3

Though yeah there's little difference now. And the lack of ranged abilities so far from Warriors to me is just...urgh. /shuts up before she goes on a tangent about how warriors should be able to use bows.

Plus Dude Hawke sounds smart. He shouldn't be a "hulk smash".

stereotypical warrior: bows are for ******, i throw victim's sword for great justice!!!

rogue: how does that even...?

stereotypical warrior: go for the eyes swordie! go for the eyes!

[Ortaya Alevli]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

stereotypical warrior: bows are for ******, i throw victim's sword for great justice!!!

rogue: how does that even...?

stereotypical warrior: go for the eyes swordie! go for the eyes!

Man, some hay-for-brains tried that in BG2. His scimitar did 1 damage. Was the funniest thing ever.

And Geralt's attempt was even worse.

You just don't throw the damn thing.

[nightcobra]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

nightcobra8928 wrote...

stereotypical warrior: bows are for ******, i throw victim's sword for great justice!!!

rogue: how does that even...?

stereotypical warrior: go for the eyes swordie! go for the eyes!

Man, some hay-for-brains tried that in BG2. His scimitar did 1 damage. Was the funniest thing ever.

And Geralt's attempt was even worse.

You just don't throw the damn thing.

stereotypical warrior: a minor set-back, i need something with more heft and to throw it HARDER!!!

[crimzontearz]

the warrior needs sword-cucks



nuff said

[Eledran]

Yeah, like you, I'd like the KOTOR solution here: bash the lock but risk destroying whatever is inside...

[Aermas]

I love how Rogues, notorious for being undisciplined are the ones to get bows. It take ones entire life to learn to shoot a bow, & to develop the tendons to wield one without shredding your hand muscles

[Leonia]

Rogues are notoriously undisciplined? Since when? They've always been the "utility" class, a jack of all trades of sorts, doing all the stuff the rest of the party can't do. They have to have a little self-discipline to be so efficient at a myriad of tasks that they are needed for. it makes sense that they would wield bows, especially short or compact bows, so they aren't getting chopped to bits on the front lines unnecessarily. Maybe they aren't typically longbow users (well, my Dalish Warden is but I won't pretend everyone can use a longbow effectively) but shortbows are certainly preferred by most rogue-types. Even futuristic rogues like Han Solo have their trusty blaster at their side.

Modifié par leonia42, 10 décembre 2010 - 03:28 .

[Marionetten]

leonia42 wrote...

Rogues are notoriously undisciplined? Since when?

Since the word rogue was invented. Unless you want to consider a vagrant or tramp the model of discipline.

The fact that rogues have been made into super kewl assassin doods capable of standing toe to toe with the mightiest warriors as of late merely highlights the problem.

Modifié par Marionetten, 10 décembre 2010 - 03:32 .

[Leonia]

I wouldn't say they are models of discipline but they aren't exactly thugs without any sense of how to work with others either.

[Aermas]

Okay, Okay, lets say "they aren't professionally trained"



I hate it when people refute the ENTIRE definition of a term because ONE version of that term is popular.



They do not/would not devote their entire lives to the use of a bow. That is why they should not have the ability to use a bow. They should instead use the crossbow, they do not have the strength required to pull back a traditional bow, & it has the added accuracy of a flat shot (as opposed to an arced shot)

[Leonia]

I'd sure hate to reload a crossbow while I am trying to make my escape after a bungled up burglary attempt on some noble's house. Crossbows are better suited for sieges where the user isn't moving so much. A shortbow could be used on the move by someone dexterous and strong enough (which any good thief/assassin would need to be). 'Tis true that crossbows are more accurate and easier to use but they jam easily and reloading takes time. I guess I can forgive Varric for relying on one because this is a fantasy game where we have to put aside normal, real-world combat mechanics and the like but in general I would think most rogue-types in Dragon Age would prefer a bow to a crossbow. Even Zevran uses one and he was an accomplished assassin.

[Aermas]

leonia42 wrote...

I'd sure hate to reload a crossbow while I am trying to make my escape after a bungled up burglary attempt on some noble's house. Crossbows are better suited for sieges where the user isn't moving so much. A shortbow could be used on the move by someone dexterous and strong enough (which any good thief/assassin would need to be). 'Tis true that crossbows are more accurate and easier to use but they jam easily and reloading takes time. I guess I can forgive Varric for relying on one because this is a fantasy game where we have to put aside normal, real-world combat mechanics and the like but in general I would think most rogue-types in Dragon Age would prefer a bow to a crossbow. Even Zevran uses one and he was an accomplished assassin.

Crossbows were made for the untrained.
An assassin should only need one shot.
A thief doesn't kill people.
Bows should have a strength requirement.
A rogue is not an assassin or a thief. You argument is invalid.

[IRMcGhee]

The rogue specialisations would disagree with your last point. Don't agree about your earlier comments on archery either, I was a pretty decent archer a quarter century back after only a couple of months practice and my hand muscles are fine, thank you very much And I doubt I was anywhere near as fit or as talented as a DA character is supposed to be.

Modifié par IRMcGhee, 10 décembre 2010 - 04:22 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Ah, for the good old days when "rogues" were unequivocally called "thieves".



My "rogue" in DDO is lawful--because she's also a monk. I got tired of having a crap AC and getting killed by everything and anything. Problem solved.

[Ziggeh]

Hah, we're discussing realism in gaming mechanics again.



The international union of rogues is most displeased.

[Leonia]

Aermas wrote..

Crossbows were made for the untrained.

I never said otherwise. I even pointed out they are easy to use.

An assassin should only need one shot.

Should is the key word there. And what happens if the assassin runs into a nosey guard while they are escaping or there is a witness to the killing? If they've already used their one-shot they'd be SOL. A good assassin will be prepared for anything, even failure. Sometimes you have to get away and live to try again.

A thief doesn't kill people.

Not if he never gets caught, no. But eventually his luck may run out or he'll bite off more than he can chew. There was a thief that Duncan talks about in The Calling who got caught using magic to steal from peoples' pockets and he was killed on sight by templars.  Duncan himself got caught stealing from a Grey Warden and was forced to kill him to defend himself. It can happen, even to really good thieves. A thief has to be able to protect themselves in a tricky situation or they suffer the fate of that mage that tried to ply his trade as a pickpocket.

Bows should have a strength requirement.

Never said otherwise, although I think (if memory serves) that dexterity is the more important stat in Origins for bows. Since we are talking about a game here and not "real" rogues, I think the game's version of the rules are somewhat relevant.

A rogue is not an assassin or a thief. You argument is invalid.

So what is a rogue then if he is neither of those? The Lockpicking Dude? You don't normally refer to a rogue as a rogue in the game, that's a class, not a description of their talent. Daveth was implied to be a thief or pickpocket, Duncan is similar based on the novels, Loghain was a hunter but basically fought like a rogue in the novels (he even used a bow on a regular basis), Zevran is an assassin and he tells you about other assassins like Taliesin who also have rogue skills based on when you fight them.

I fail to see how my argument is invalid at all. We are talking about Dragon Age not "real life", right?

[Leonia]

ziggehunderslash wrote...

Hah, we're discussing realism in gaming mechanics again.

The international union of rogues is most displeased.

*sigh* It's a hazard one simply cannot avoid when having a conversation with Aermas on the forums, he seems to think real life and video games are one and the same. Sometimes I just can't help correcting him though.

[Apollo Starflare]

I can't believe this topic has come up again, this must be the third or fourth time in the past month? I think rogue players should start posting threads about how taunt and bravery should be available to them etc.



I can see why people want a lockbash, it sure is frustrating missing out on locked boxes, but you have a big party and it doesn't even cost talent points to improve lockpicking anymore, it's not as if the loot in locked containers is going to be impossible to get unless you play as a rogue. I don't know, I just don't see why this is such a big issue for some people. A situation where Magi and Warriors both get unique things only they can loot (magically sealed containers, bashable containers) is the only one I can see fitting with the DA system.

[Lord_Caledore]

Apollo Starflare wrote...

...it doesn't even cost talent points to improve lockpicking anymore....

Has this been confirmed? I hadn't seen that tidbit before but that definitely removes one of the big gripes I had with lockpicking in DA:O.

[nightcobra]

Lord_Caledore wrote...

Apollo Starflare wrote...

...it doesn't even cost talent points to improve lockpicking anymore....

Has this been confirmed? I hadn't seen that tidbit before but that definitely removes one of the big gripes I had with lockpicking in DA:O.

yes, it's been confirmed i think and it's dependent on the cunning stat if i read correctly

[nightcobra]

this is my view on it and i'm sticking to it^_^

(mostly i want this to add to level design interactivity and teamwork between classes both in and out of combat)


 as i said before i don't mix combat skills with non-combat skills.
i don't have a beef with rogue having lockpick, what i'd like to see is for warriors and mages to be as useful as the rogue is in non combat situations in different ways like:



locked chest/doors that can be opened by rogues and is dependant on cunning stat.

magical locks and barriers that can be dispelled by mages (like how the spirit form in the fade did with transparent doorways) and is dependant on magic stat.

and large obstacles like boulders or toppled statues that can be destroyed by warriors (like how the golem form in the fade was able to burst open through heavy doors) and is dependant on strenght stat. 


if you think that leaves the rogue lacking in combat skills, then add some more of those to rogue as well.