129 réponses à ce sujet

[Leonia]

SoulRebel_1979 wrote...

Pausanias wrote...

What's unique about these games is interaction with NPCs. There is no other medium that does this. All the other games mentioned in this thread have cutscenes where you don't interact. In the Bioware games you feel like you are getting to know an actual person. And influence them. And have an effect on their future. Yes, I think they've pulled that much off. It's frightening to think how much more immersive it'll be in twenty years.

Stories, characters are what last... gameplay is forgettable.

As far as quality goes, Bioware's writing is not George Eliot but it certainly is better than a heck of a lot of scripts and novels that pass for art these days.

 I'm down with a good story all the way, but calling gameplay forgettable is just silly.

It's not so silly. I don't remember which tactics or what order my companions used what attacks in each and every encounter in the game. I have a vague strategy in my head of how to tackle the bigger bosses that I've fought before but I wouldn't say any of the fights are particularly memorable. If I described my strategy for defeating the Archdemon to someone else who hasn't experienced that fight, it wouldn't sound all that interesting and I'd probably leave out all sorts of details. What I remember most from Dragon Age is the player interactions and the lore that I picked up in codex entries and the general plot. Those are things I can talk about for hours and hours with other DA fans or even non-DA fans (people who may appreciate fantasy fiction or PnP RPGs may appreciate hearing about it). Gameplay that is memorable to me is like.. fighting Ultimecia in FF VIII with everyone at level 100 (the game had level scaling)  since the fight takes over half-an-hour to finish. That's epic and memory-worthy.

Modifié par leonia42, 10 décembre 2010 - 06:51 .

[1483749283]

Which brings me to my point regarding character depth. The writers spent god knows how many months writing all these codex entries. Surely if it's worth all that time to lay down the wonderful background, then it's worth putting in a little extra time to add insightful conversation? 

The fact that love interests have nothing to say to you after romance is the prime example of incredible potential unfulfilled. Surely if you have the time to write dozens of pages regarding dead elven gods, then you can afford a little time for writing some insightful heart-to-heart talk between the Warden romancing Morrigan or Leliana? This really is my main point here.

As for below, leonia, I agree (except for the part about conversations with other DA fans of which you speak... unless you mean forums conversations. In real life I don't think anyone dares speak of things like DA even if they partake. At least in my circles).

leonia42 wrote...

It's not so silly. I don't remember which tactics or what order my companions used what attacks in each and every encounter in the game. I have a vague strategy in my head of how to tackle the bigger bosses that I've fought before but I wouldn't say any of the fights are particularly memorable. If I described my strategy for defeating the Archdemon to someone else who hasn't experienced that fight, it wouldn't sound all that interesting and I'd probably leave out all sorts of details. What I remember most from Dragon Age is the player interactions and the lore that I picked up in codex entries and the general plot. Those are things I can talk about for hours and hours with other DA fans or even non-DA fans (people who may appreciate fantasy fiction or PnP RPGs may appreciate hearing about it). Gameplay that is memorable to me is like.. fighting Ultimecia in FF VIII with everyone at level 100 (the game had level scaling)  since the fight takes over half-an-hour to finish. That's epic and memory-worthy.

Modifié par Pausanias, 10 décembre 2010 - 07:03 .

[Bryy_Miller]

MIke_18 wrote...

I like Bioware games, but mostly ...you know the dialogue is not really dialogue. It's just people telling you stories

I'm confused by this statement.

[MKDAWUSS]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

MIke_18 wrote...

I like Bioware games, but mostly ...you know the dialogue is not really dialogue. It's just people telling you stories

I'm confused by this statement.

I think he means that the PC does very little talking in comparison to NPCs in each conversation. In each conversation the PC may only say a few sentences in the entire conversation while the NPC may say several paragraphs.

[Piecake]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

MIke_18 wrote...

I like Bioware games, but mostly ...you know the dialogue is not really dialogue. It's just people telling you stories

I'm confused by this statement.

I think he means that the characters just blurt exposition at you, instead of just converse natually. 

As for my opinion on it.  Sure, there is a portion of that in there, but saying all dialogue is like that is hyperbole


Wow, our first 6 words were exactly the same MKDA,

Modifié par Piecake, 10 décembre 2010 - 07:08 .

[Harid]

If your gameplay was forgettable, then your gameplay, simply put, wasn't that good.



I remember Chrono Trigger more than say, anything Bioware has put out (due to conflating factors and, possibly, a bit of nostalgia), and I remember it for both the gameplay and the story.



I remember Arc The Lad 2 and using Tosh to solo a mission because he was a god damned boss. I remember the tactics I used, I remember the gear I put on him to accomplish it.



I remember playing Grandia Xtreme strictly for the battle system because it was a dungeon crawler. I still remember some of the combination attacks in that game because mastering the battle system in Grandia is a beautiful thing, a moment where you are both attacking and defending by canceling enemy actions, via Critical Hits.



Good to Average RPG's have good story, or good gameplay, but great ones have both, and they are the ones that stand the tests of time.



I suppose you could side track this by running down JRPG's. . .I don't care, the point remains. Story is important in a RPG. But saying gameplay is unimportant is wrong. And I would hope that any competent developer would want both a good story and good gameplay in an RPG.

[Harid]

Ms. Lovey Dovey wrote...

@Harid I believe all that was said was that a good story is more memorable then good game play. Alas game play would be horrible and senseless without a sense of story. Not sure if it can be said vice-versa.

If that were the case, no one would play like. . .anything Nintendo makes.

It's simply put, wrong.

I would argue, to the general public, gameplay trumps story, any day of the week.

Modifié par Harid, 10 décembre 2010 - 07:14 .

[Leonia]

I'd argue that story trumps gameplay but I want both because I am greedy. Then again, I usually avoid most Nintendo games (well Legend of Zelda is an exception). So far it looks like the DA 2 gameplay will be a lot more exciting and memorable than Origins.. looking forward to that.

Modifié par leonia42, 10 décembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[Tiax Rules All]

When I push a button I want awesome story to happen

[upsettingshorts]

Tiax Rules All wrote...

When I push a button I want awesome story to happen

When I push a button I want to receive bacon:

[1483749283]

To each his own, I guess. I cannot play a game without a good story. I am happy enough feeding the machine's random number generator if it means at the end I get one more quip out of an NPC. But battle for its own sake... no thanks. Once you know the game mechanics, it's all really just mathematics unfolding... and that's not nearly as entertaining to me as the human element.

The human element has been with us for milllenia.. all the stories of the illiterate bards of Greece, of Finland... audiences sitting mesmerized in front of them in the dark of the night all those centuries ago. These games have taken that and moved it into the interactive sphere. Our time will be marked as the beginning of the moment that we can take the old stories and interact with them in a human way, rather than be passive listeners. And that is frightening to say the least.

[Maria Caliban]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

When I push a button I want to receive bacon...

I think we all want that. (Except for In Exile)

[Aermas]

I never had to, but it doesn't seem too hard, to populate a world with enemies, just sprinkle in a few darkspawn & an enemy relevant to location. To develop story however seems like a frustrating mess to solve. So I don't think we should have fewer battles. I wouldn't mind to see the story get longer though...I'm greedy too. Maybe if they when to having four discs like games of the 90's it could be longer & more epic. But that would mean it would take a long while to develop, so *shugs* what can you do?

[Cutlasskiwi]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


When I push a button I want to receive bacon:

Best thing I have heard in a long time. I'm all for a bacon button. 

[Wereparrot]

I wouldn't mind more strory and depth but not at the expense of anything else. But I think it's a bit like saying you want more action from a game like Call of Duty; maybe that comparison is a bit rubbish because more story would enhance a game whereas more action could potentially kill a game for some people but you get what I mean.

[Wereparrot]

Yellow Words wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...


When I push a button I want to receive bacon:

Best thing I have heard in a long time. I'm all for a bacon button. 

A=Bacon
B=Egg
X=Sausages
Y=Hash browns
RT+A=Brown sauce

[berelinde]

Piecake wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

MIke_18 wrote...

I like Bioware games, but mostly ...you know the dialogue is not really dialogue. It's just people telling you stories

I'm confused by this statement.

I think he means that the characters just blurt exposition at you, instead of just converse natually. 

Oddly enough, the toolset had a 60-character limit in DA:O. That means that the NPC can talk for hours, but PC replies must be limited to 60 letters and spaces or less. It's very difficult to give the PC natural-sounding responses when terseness is so mandatory.

Unless I haven't figured out how to turn off character limits in the toolset, which is quite possible.

[1varangian]

I would also like all filler combat to be cut.



The combat rules in Origins were not deep enough for enjoying the countless waves of minions from a tactical point of view. And DA2 looks to be even simpler in that regard. Mindless button mashing combat is no fun.



Also, watching the same moves and spells in every combat gets old really fast. But that's more of a game design problem when they let you unload everything in every single combat. If there was some resource management involved the countless waves might actually be more interesting to face.

[Dayshadow]

Pausanias wrote...

We are asking for fruition.

Who is this "we"? 

Everyone seems to be representatives of some secret guild.

[Seagloom]

Where BioWare games are concerned I think they can do with less filler combat. There are segments of Origins with too many pointless battles; such as the Deep Roads. This has been a BioWare design issue going back to the first "Baldur's Gate". Granted, a few encounters with worthless mooks is okay. It gives the player a chance to see their characters show off and dominate. It adds to a feeling of power and accomplishment when your party can cut down waves of enemies with ease. I remember slaying waves of Sith on the Star Forge fondly.

But I think mook encounters can get repetitious when used to artificially extend a game's length. Battles where tactics are necessary to survive without casualties and(or) a significant loss of resources should be more common than encounters with grunts in my opinion.

Modifié par Seagloom, 10 décembre 2010 - 01:38 .

[ryaksuin]

For I think I would like more choices in the responses you can make the depth is there for the npcs but not for the pc imo... I mean the sacred ashes quest when they are asking you the riddles if you pay attention its kinda obvious what the answer was from the choices but before i saw the choices i had different answer that i seriously thought would work...



Or in respect to the relationship unless it was a character quest there are usually around 4 choices and you can tell absolutely what the bad choices are and what the good choices are there are no real gray choices or surprising choices that you though were right and they could take the wrong way(at least to me.) I mean there is the great choice, the good choice, the bad choice, and the horrible choice



but ofc like you guys have said they are doing breakthroughs and we want more.... an example of this is my favorite character was Morrigan because she was quirky and awkward at times but was quite smart and compassionate about what she believed. I had a romance with her then did the flementh quest for her and after that there was pretty much two choices for me and I couldn't get any more. those choices was either pretty much ignore her (which in real life wouldn't happen) and leave our relationship the same or give her what she wanted... there was no trying to convince her to stay with you and that love isn't a weakness or that no matter what you only want her... it was either end it or let it stall out till the end of the game kinda limited and I want more of the good stuff



generally though I think they just need to add more choices and the combat was just about perfect for me I never liked the dungeon crawling part of almost any game but that is needed and it was balanced nicely though i would like to see more... how should i put it... interconnectedness between some of the events that tie them together so its not like the areas are almost separate games i mean there are almost no mention of the other races when you are helping with one races problems and i know they are focused on themselves but there should at least be mentions of other news even if they don't really care about it imo.



and I'm probably rambling but thats what I think