41 réponses à ce sujet

[NICE-N-EVIL]

 I had some discussion on the Dragon age 2 forums, but the subject matter merits its own topic in this section, since the reference is Dragon Age Origins

HOWEVER, it is my opinion, that if such occurances are reflective of cirmcumstances where the human psyche takes a form in and of itself and thus becoming, to put it simply, an "evolved being", then I would acknowledge the merit that the writers used better imagination for the term "demons or spirit".  

As you can probably discern, I'm not fond (also read, grown weary) of the demonology concept structurely defined and confined on the basic subject from religion as we know today.

This is why my interest in the lore has been persistent lately. 


(from Television tropes and idioms):

Demons are spirits who were originally corrupted by people.Not deliberately, but simply by staying in proximity of a weakness in the Veil. Notice that is where the highest concentration of demons remain, where they're most conscious of the material world, and where they become familiar with psyches through dream. And they are all most basically identified with human flaws, original sins. The spirits exposed to those qualities come to identify themselves with them. They in turn wish to possess human forms because they've become addicted to those qualities, and are driven to experience them more intensely. Not all spirits who come to inhabit the mortal plane are demons, Great Oak for one example, it's just that the most destructive ones that are (dark in nature as) humans get all the attention.There's some support for this in dialog between Anders and Justice:Anders[/b]:Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?[/i]Justice[/b]:They have been perverted by their desires.[/i][/list]Justice doesn't deny their similarity, and affirms that demons have been corrupted rather than existing in a state of original evil.Alternatively,all [/i]spirits have been corrupted by proximity to humans[/b] - demons are just the ones unlucky enough to be corrupted by negative emotions rather than positive or neutral ones.That would explain the spirits of higher order ideals, like Courage and Justice. You could go one further and speculate that without that influence, spirits don't coalesce self-awareness, don't become entities, don't reallyexist[/i]. Then you have to wonder what would be the Maker, if not an expression of something in the sentient condition. Sort of like a reverse Platonic idea.[/b][/list][/b]
So...your opinion on this matter?  

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

You left out the Chantry version, which may or may not be true (and it's unfortunate you can't ask Justice just about anything interesting about the Fade). According to the Andrastians, the spirits were the firstborn of the Maker and given the Fade. When the spirits did nothing with their gift, the Maker created men and gave them the physical world. Some of the spirits became envious of the mortals' gift, and these spirits became the first demons.



Technically they were not corrupted by people, but corrupted by their own desires for what people possess/experience (which Justice seems to confirm). They lust for the physical world, and seek to enter it via mortals. Justice being a spirit of Justice *before* he interacts with mortals disinclines me to believe that it's mortals who influence the virtue/vice of the spirit/demon--they already are what they are. But it's likely demons seek out minds that are 'familiar'...they can work with or easily dominate that which is in line with their nature.



Spirits, according to Justice, pity mortals and rarely interact with them of their own volition. I think we know of only two cases of spirit interaction: Justice himself (who aids mortal spirits trapped in the Fade), and the spirit bound to Wynne. The description of the Spirit Healer specialization also says that Spirit Healers are not the real power behind those spells, but rather conduits for benevolent Fade spirits.



I'm unsure of the origin of spirits/demons (did they always exist? were they indeed created? how do they form? if they can be destroyed, is there a finite number and can they replenish their numbers?). We never get the bloody opportunity to ask Justice anything worthwhile, but he at least verifies spirits/demons share a common root. A pity we can never question him about the Maker (who supposedly created the spirits) or the Old Gods (who are supposedly demons(!) according to the Chantry).

[blothulfur]

And if spirits and demons are influenced by various parts of the mortal psyche can its nature be changed by exposing it to different stimuli.
Or as Hanz supposes is it an amalgam of mortal desires and spirit essence.

Modifié par blothulfur, 10 décembre 2010 - 03:01 .

[Dayshadow]

NICE-N-EVIL wrote...

 I had some discussion on the Dragon age 2 forums, but the subject matter merits its own topic in this section, since the reference is Dragon Age Origins

HOWEVER, it is my opinion, that if such occurances are reflective of cirmcumstances where the human psyche takes a form in and of itself and thus becoming, to put it simply, an "evolved being", then I would acknowledge the merit that the writers used better imagination for the term "demons or spirit".  

As you can probably discern, I'm not fond (also read, grown weary) of the demonology concept structurely defined and confined on the basic subject from religion as we know today.

This is why my interest in the lore has been persistent lately. 


(from Television tropes and idioms):

Demons are spirits who were originally corrupted by people.Not deliberately, but simply by staying in proximity of a weakness in the Veil. Notice that is where the highest concentration of demons remain, where they're most conscious of the material world, and where they become familiar with psyches through dream. And they are all most basically identified with human flaws, original sins. The spirits exposed to those qualities come to identify themselves with them. They in turn wish to possess human forms because they've become addicted to those qualities, and are driven to experience them more intensely. Not all spirits who come to inhabit the mortal plane are demons, Great Oak for one example, it's just that the most destructive ones that are (dark in nature as) humans get all the attention.There's some support for this in dialog between Anders and Justice:Anders[/b]:Aren't demons simply spirits with unique and sparkling personalities?[/i]Justice[/b]:They have been perverted by their desires.[/i][/list]Justice doesn't deny their similarity, and affirms that demons have been corrupted rather than existing in a state of original evil.Alternatively,all [/i]spirits have been corrupted by proximity to humans[/b] - demons are just the ones unlucky enough to be corrupted by negative emotions rather than positive or neutral ones.That would explain the spirits of higher order ideals, like Courage and Justice. You could go one further and speculate that without that influence, spirits don't coalesce self-awareness, don't become entities, don't reallyexist[/i]. Then you have to wonder what would be the Maker, if not an expression of something in the sentient condition. Sort of like a reverse Platonic idea.[/b][/list][/b]
So...your opinion on this matter?  

Seems to me Bioware borrowed from existing ideologies.

That would mean all spirits are naturally blank slates without personality, purpose, reason or anything.  To be so dramatically effected by the emotions of men indicates a near nothing existence.  The only problem is what makes a blank slate want?  Where does the motivation comes from.  Why would they desire what they saw?  You might as well just say tha conscious energy was floating about the Fade and the human mind, not the Maker, shaped it into being unconsciously.

The Fade is the astral plane or 5th dimension, where the body of emotion exists. Because humanity does no exercise control of their thoughts and emotions this emotional energy is constantly crystallizing into new entities.  A fear entity, because they are forged of fear, can do nothing put seek the circumstances of its creation.  So this entities induce fear in the sleepers (nightmares) and consequently get stronger and stronger. I think this the premise behind WarHammer gods and spirits and I think I makes more sense.

[NICE-N-EVIL]

I agree and would personnally prefer the blank slate becoming an entity than the usual demons from the Bible concept

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

That's generally how I feel about the demons vs spirit issue, is that they become demon/spirit through cobtact with human emotions.



Generally, I reject the Chantry theory, which is closer to a Bible explaination than a Thedas one.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Rejecting a theory just because it seems to be drawn from religion is...sadly typical. *shrug*

[Raonar]

I think spirits and demons would exist even without mortal dream to give them ideas, though they would probably be less varied.



I also think demons or such things can come into being spontaneously. Think that thing that appears in the circle tower and drops the dragon slayer greatsword. If you find all the apprentice notes, that greater shade or whatever it is appears in the room where Wynne and the otehr were. It's supposedly made up of 'just random thought.'

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Shadow of Light Dragon wrote...

Rejecting a theory just because it seems to be drawn from religion is...sadly typical. *shrug*

Uuuhhhh...no. I reject it because there are better explainations to the question than the religous ones. Seeing how religion does not have the greatest track record regarding independant and rational thiniing or analysis, I shall favor theories that at least have some basis drawn from reality.

[NICE-N-EVIL]

Well it's pretty much established that the Chantry have used a "modified" version of Fereldan's history. If you read all the codexes, you see that the Chantry has used most of the informative descriptions and reverted them to the conceptually flawed-but-effective religious aspect. Are they wrong? Maybe not, but their version is geared toward the definite religious and spiritual inceptions as we have come to expect in our real world.



As for the Fade, I really believe it's a dream world (another dimension) that comes to life to the more it is fed by the world's denizens.

[BelgarathMTH]

Okay, I'll put my two cents in as a hard empiricist.

First, we are just having some fun, right? Y'all know that none of this stuff actually exists or has anything to do with real life other than storytelling and entertainment?

I would think that the main academic value of this discussion would be to comparative mythology, which is a field that I do find interesting, and which I believe should in fact take gaming mythologies seriously, as people are doing in this thread, because my opinion is that game mythologies are just as psychologically relevant to humanity as any other human-created mythology. (That last sentence in itself is a thesis that deserves some academic attention and research.)

Now, to the point: if I found myself living in the world of Ferelden as hard empiricist me, I would only accept propositions that I could directly test. That "demons" and "spirits" do exist in this hypothetical, fictional world, I would be certain, because I could directly experience them by entering the Fade.

As to their exact characteristics and backgrounds, I would either have to devise an objective test that I could measure through instruments that I would have to invent, perhaps through magical means, or I would have to go on anecdotal evidence only, by asking the demons and spirits themselves to explain their histories and natures, and so far, they seem notoriously uninterested in philosophical self-contemplation or in discussions along those lines. They are much more interested in consuming the consciousness of the inquirer than in answering philosophical questions.

As for the Chantry explanation, to hard empiricist me, it is nothing but pure speculation and story-telling. There does not seem to be one iota of even historical evidence (documents, records, artifacts, etc.) that support the religious explanation, that will stand up to rigorous literary or archeological analysis, much less any true empirical evidence, to support the standard myth as factual.

Therefore, my bottom line conclusion is that, in the fictional world of Ferelden, we are in exactly the same boat with this kind of religious or philosophical issue that we find ourselves in the real world. Speculation and superstition are rampant, people become very emotionally invested in believing that their religious or philosophical ideas about reality are absolutely and necessarily true, and much pointless effort is wasted on bantering back and forth, arguing, and sadly in the real world, even committing acts of emotional and physical violence, defending these suppositions, systems, and ideas.

Modifié par BelgarathMTH, 13 décembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[Dayshadow]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

Okay, I'll put my two cents in as a hard empiricist.

First, we are just having some fun, right? Y'all know that none of this stuff actually exists or has anything to do with real life other than storytelling and entertainment? 

Yes,  Dragon Age is a work of fiction.

No, forums are not for fun. They are for arguing.  Were you born yesterday?

[BelgarathMTH]

Dayshadow wrote...

BelgarathMTH wrote...

Okay, I'll put my two cents in as a hard empiricist.

First, we are just having some fun, right? Y'all know that none of this stuff actually exists or has anything to do with real life other than storytelling and entertainment? 

Yes,  Dragon Age is a work of fiction.

No, forums are not for fun. They are for arguing.  Were you born yesterday?

[ArawnNox]

Glaucon wrote...

So are we physically present in the fade or does the ritual to enter the fade merely transfer our consciousness in much the same way as the matrix would? If it is only our consciousness that is transfered then scientific analysis helps us little. The problem with metaphysical theories is that by definition they cannot be corroborated.

From everything the game presents it would be out "conciousness" in a broader sense.

[Dayshadow]

Glaucon wrote...

So are we physically present in the fade or does the ritual to enter the fade merely transfer our consciousness in much the same way as the matrix would? If it is only our consciousness that is transfered then scientific analysis helps us little. The problem with metaphysical theories is that by definition they cannot be corroborated.

To try to prove the non-physical by physical means is absurd, don't you think?  At best 10 guys would have to learn to astral project, then meet each other in the astral and when they returned to their physical bodies be able to recount what happened.  Even then, they have proved it only to themselves. Their corroboration does not help me to know if their is an astral dimension apart from the physical. The metaphysics requires direct experience because it is a science of spirit/consciousness.  Technically, physical science requires direct experience as well to know the truths of the universe, but for some reason we believe the experiences of others (i.e scientist) without directly experiencing/discovering for ourselves. Quite the double standard.

Modifié par Dayshadow, 13 décembre 2010 - 05:56 .

[Dayshadow]

Glaucon wrote...

To the Demons and Spirits then....  When we say that Demons are corrupted by our psychology do we mean that they have no influence over that corruption?  If that is the case, then benevolent Fade Spirits are simple victims too?  If the Fade is nothing more than an instantiation of largely subconscious thought what is its purpose?

To my knowledge the Fade is 'Heaven' corrupted --by the Tevinter Magi seeking to elevate themselves to Godhood-- implying that it existed in and of itself prior to any outside influence.  So Demons and Spirits seem to have some agency in the Fade and therefore cannot be considered as simple extensions of Ferelden psyche?

Human thought existed before the Tevinter lords pasted physically into the Fade.  One could say it existed as long a people have felt emotion. Or, according to the Chantry, it was their first then the physical world. According to Justice there are supposedly higher planes of existence above the Fade.  This coincides with elven mythology.

[Dayshadow]

Glaucon wrote...

Dayshadow wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

So are we physically present in the fade or does the ritual to enter the fade merely transfer our consciousness in much the same way as the matrix would? If it is only our consciousness that is transfered then scientific analysis helps us little. The problem with metaphysical theories is that by definition they cannot be corroborated.

To try to prove the non-physical by physical means is absurd, don't you think?  At best 10 guys would have to learn to astral project, then meet each other in the astral and when they returned to their physical bodies be able to recount what happened.  Even then, they have proved it only to themselves. The metaphysics requires direct experience because it wis a science of spirit/consciousness.  Technically, physical science requires direct experience as well to know the truths of the universe, but for some reason we believe the experiences of others (i.e scientist) without directly experiencing/learning for ourselves. Quite the double standard.

Precisely.  It is an absurd notion.

ETA  But in the physical sciences we have at our disposal methods for corroboration that are designed to be as foolproof as possible.  In metaphysics no such method exists; we are left only with logic and rhetoric.  Logic can take us only so far and in the end a scientific claim must be corroborated for it to persist.

You misunderstand me. I have done nothing myself to prove to myself that the sun is a ball of burning hydrogen. I take it on faith. No matter how many scientist claim to have arrived at the same conclusion I still don't KNOW for myself. I take it on faith.   In the same manner, if I believe in astral projection but have never bothered to learn how to do it myself my belief is just faith.  Astral projectors can cooraborate with each other and it could one day become common knowledge that their is an astral plane with all the top metaphysicist (in this futrue it is a legitimate science) could concur. They could have schools in the astral plan where people go at night while their physical bodies sleep to learn and clubs where people go to party. But until I astral project myself it isn't known to me.  I'm just putting my faith in these scientist.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Dayshadow wrote...


You misunderstand me. I have done nothing myself to prove to myself that the sun is a ball of burning hydrogen. I take it on faith. No matter how many scientist claim to have arrived at the same conclusion I still don't KNOW for myself. I take it on faith.   In the same manner, if I believe in astral projection but have never bothered to learn how to do it myself my belief is just faith.  Astral projectors can cooraborate with each other and it could one day become common knowledge that their is an astral plane with all the top metaphysicist (in this futrue it is a legitimate science) could concur. They could have schools in the astral plan where people go at night while their physical bodies sleep to learn and clubs where people go to party. But until I astral project myself it isn't known to me.  I'm just putting my faith in these scientist.

Your definition of Faith is a broad one, and I do not agree that it is a matter of faith taking the observations of scientists as fact.

Faith is where someone tells me that the sun is a ball of burning gases, and wants me to believe that it is a ball of burning gases because they said so, or they have had visions saying as much, without giving a series of rational or emperical reasons why this is so. It would be an act of faith to believe that this is what the sun is simply because someone tells me to believe it. And, even when confronted with observations and evidence to the contrary, you still choose to believe the sun is made of gases even though there might be strong evidence to the contrary.

Science is where someone tells you the sun is made of burning gases, then gives you a list of consistant observations and collected evidence as to why they have come to this conclusion, and then provides you with evidence as to why this conclusion has been reached. Evidence and observations, which can be repeated by any observer, no matter what their initial thoughts are, and still reach the same or similar conclusion.

[NICE-N-EVIL]

Dayshadow wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

To the Demons and Spirits then....  When we say that Demons are corrupted by our psychology do we mean that they have no influence over that corruption?  If that is the case, then benevolent Fade Spirits are simple victims too?  If the Fade is nothing more than an instantiation of largely subconscious thought what is its purpose?

To my knowledge the Fade is 'Heaven' corrupted --by the Tevinter Magi seeking to elevate themselves to Godhood-- implying that it existed in and of itself prior to any outside influence.  So Demons and Spirits seem to have some agency in the Fade and therefore cannot be considered as simple extensions of Ferelden psyche?

Human thought existed before the Tevinter lords pasted physically into the Fade.  One could say it existed as long a people have felt emotion. Or, according to the Chantry, it was their first then the physical world. According to Justice there are supposedly higher planes of existence above the Fade.  This coincides with elven mythology.

In the same vein as Dungeons and Dragons?