207 réponses à ce sujet

[Humanoid_Taifun]

BGT is not the safe route. Actually I'd that Tutu would probably be somewhat more stable, what with less mods working on less content.
What I'd advice you to do, even if the entire world around you is falling to bugs and the eternal fires of hell, is to try and make a bee-line to Sarevok. Finish the first game.
Even if you can't import the character, you can recreate it in BG2. The main thing is that you actually get through.
Then figure out a mod selection for BG2, and play through that.

Next time you try a run through BG1, be a bit more selective with your mods. Most of us started with 1 or 2 mods, slowly collecting more, thereby learning when and how these will fail to work. That makes it easier to pinpoint the problem and getting rid of it (or at least past it).
This is as much a learning process as it is a task to find the correct installation order, and simply copying what somebody else does may lead to more problems too. In fact, I'm planning a runthrough with IA which promised some interesting problems (most likely crashes) as soon as one of my characters tries dualwielding something or using scimitars or katanas or any other weapon not present in the first game. I'm okay with that, because I've already planned accordingly (and I'm going to equip such weapons whenever it looks like the enemy might win).
Would you?

Bhryaen wrote...The problem I'm finding with BGT is that it obligates me to do even more research work.  Since BG2 becomes an integral part of it, I have to include my BG2 mods now. But actually I'd much rather play BG2 near vanilla because I've only ever played it once through when it and ToB first came out (though I played the initial prison several times). I'd rather know how monsters behave normally before letting S2 ramp up their abilities.

Probably a good idea, but SCS will affect BG2 opponents in BGT, so unless you skip it, you don't really have much of a choice. That's not to say they'll be as good as with SCS2, just that they will know what they're doing (and mages may have a strange preference for spell levels 1-4).

Another issue is with the seeming advantage of all NPCs transferring as they were in BG1 because I might recruit one just for a side quest- or as with Xan & Yeslick I always recruit them to get them out of the mines, or rescuing Dynaheir from the gnoll pit- but then let them go... at the much lower level I was when I met them. This means that if I recruit them in BG2 they'll be only 4th lvl or so? I suppose I should just leave them where they stand unless planning to roll with them the entire game. Yeslick won't make it out too well that way though when I flood the mines, of course- if he shows up in BG2 at all.

Fortunately, the number of actually imported joinable characters to BG2 is pretty small:
Jaheira, Viconia, Imoen, Edwin and Minsc.
There are mods for others (Xan and Kivan, most notably), but these will not recreate their BG1 versions, but simply create new ones.

[Grond0]

Bhryaen wrote...

Grond0 wrote...
... when I try and make a change to an existing mod, as you describe above, it has usually caused significant problems.  Now my feeling is that I won't make changes or, if I really need to, it will probably be quicker to reinstall from scratch.

As for why DH didn't work properly in the first place, I'm still uncertain because it does seem to work for some people, including yourself, no?

It does - I've had no problems with it on this setup - played through BG1 several times now.  However, I tried a couple of different arrangements on the way; on my initial attempts I did have some bugs, e.g. crashing at the gnoll stronghold and unable to access Ulcaster dungeon, that probably sound familiar to you.  I've seen from others posting on this site that DH has caused problems for them as well - I think it is definitely sensitive to install order.

The problem I'm finding with BGT is that it obligates me to do even more research work.  Since BG2 becomes an integral part of it, I have to include my BG2 mods now. But actually I'd much rather play BG2 near vanilla because I've only ever played it once through when it and ToB first came out (though I played the initial prison several times). I'd rather know how monsters behave normally before letting S2 ramp up their abilities.

I think playing with minimal mods makes a lot of sense.  However, although SCS will affect the game play experience (as Humanoid-Taifun points out) that won't necessarily be a problem for you as you will be used to that from BG1.  In fact you might find it a bit off-putting if monsters behave very differently between games (not supporting each other, always targering closest party member etc).

Another issue is with the seeming advantage of all NPCs transferring as they were in BG1 because I might recruit one just for a side quest- or as with Xan & Yeslick I always recruit them to get them out of the mines, or rescuing Dynaheir from the gnoll pit- but then let them go... at the much lower level I was when I met them. This means that if I recruit them in BG2 they'll be only 4th lvl or so? I suppose I should just leave them where they stand unless planning to roll with them the entire game. Yeslick won't make it out too well that way though when I flood the mines, of course- if he shows up in BG2 at all.

Unless you're intending to rack up vastly more than the standard XP limit of 161,000 in BG1 this shouldn't be too much of a problem.  The amount of XP gained in BG2 is so much higher than in BG1 that the few characters this affects would catch up pretty quickly to your level (or at most 1 level behind you).

Modifié par Grond0, 09 janvier 2011 - 05:39 .

[Bhryaen]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
BGT is not the safe route. Actually I'd that Tutu would probably be somewhat more stable, what with less mods working on less content.

And that was what I'd had in mind by going to Tutu, but it really seems to be the mods themselves that are the issue- which ones, which components, which order. Plus some mods like Item Revisions work on BGT and not (entirely) on Tutu.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
[E]ven if the entire world around you is falling to bugs and the eternal fires of hell...

It's actually not so bad in general- everything working ok, mods and vanilla. Item Rand did put another CHA Tome on Taugosz (to add to the CHA tome I'd found at the Gnoll Stronghold), so now I have to wonder if it randomized the Durlag Tower tome and then sent it out randomly also, but that's just fun, not hellish. As you said, I can get "at least past it." The latest is with some odd key I found at the bandit camp. I looked online because my patience isn't such that I'm contented to check every single door and chest in the game (the item description gave no clue whatsoever), and it turned out to be a house in Beregost. During the battle at the house... it crashed the game the same way it does when I try to start a new game now, but it turned out that it has something to do with one of the enemies dying: "OnDeath" script = crash. The post from which I learned of the Beregost house also mentioned that the mod was crash free- i.e., had a history of crashing. Anyway I simply didn't kill that one guy... and got past it.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
I'm planning a runthrough with IA which promised some interesting problems (most likely crashes) as soon as one of my characters tries dualwielding something or using scimitars or katanas or any other weapon not present in the first game. I'm okay with that...Would you?

Honestly, no, and if I'd seen that on IA's readme, I'd have skipped IA. But then I haven't (yet) simply copied install orders either. Mostly I haven't really seen many mod lists presented in order (or at least not explicitly so), so I end up using the list simply as a reference to 1., check up on a mod I haven't seen before, and 2., tally the number of times I see mods used to get a sense of their viability.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Next time you try a run through BG1, be a bit more selective with your mods. Most of us started with 1 or 2 mods, slowly collecting more, thereby learning when and how these will fail to work. That makes it easier to pinpoint the problem and getting rid of it (or at least past it)

What I'm facing now is what you mentioned early on: that I'd find mods I don't want to play without. I don't want to go back to, for instance, clerics impossibly unable to pick up a sword at all (what justification is there for this other than metagamed "game balance" heavy-handedness- and even then what balance does it present when the THAC0 & specialization restrictions are enough) or to when I'm safe in a cabin in the woods, but somehow I'm impossibly unable to rest there where there is even a bed and must instead use a tent outside (again metagamed to force people to risk random sleep disturbance? Why?). Stuff like that. I didn't pick anything whimsically, though there are a few mods I could do without, like the Potions mod which hasn't panned out (or rather which I haven't seen actually work other than to find the merchant). What I probably need to do is first to pare down all sacrificable components, and second to do what suttree suggested- limit all changes of a particular type to a single mod: i.e., all spell modding to Spell Revisions, all avatar modding to 1PP or IA (since I have both), item changes to... hm, I have several partial item mods. Maybe that Hard Times whittling down of several early-game items might be a problem after all. Anyway you're right about keeping it as simple and minimal as possible, but since I'm not ready yet to jettison the Zero Room, I'm just going to narrow down all I can of what I seem to require and be more selective about components.

Again a lot of my more recent issues aren't necessarily mods or mod order but what Grond0 was saying about trying to use WeiDU to reinstall the entire shabang. I think once I reinstall with some refinements, it will work better.

As for why DH didn't work properly in the first place, I'm still uncertain because it does seem to work for some people, including yourself, no?

Grond0 wrote...
It does - I've had no problems with it on this setup - played through BG1 several times now.  However, I tried a couple of different arrangements on the way; on my initial attempts I did have some bugs, e.g. crashing at the gnoll stronghold and unable to access Ulcaster dungeon, that probably sound familiar to you.  I've seen from others posting on this site that DH has caused problems for them as well - I think it is definitely sensitive to install order.

Yes, I thought I'd read that from your earlier no-reload posts- i.e., a transition from unable to able to use DH. I'm going to check on the change in your mods when I get a chance... busier at work today (heh)...

It's funny too how the mods conspired together to make Ulcaster the most traumatic victory I've ever won in BG1- though not the most fun. Everything was exactly the same until the last room where the main vampire wolf has... more resources... and then there is a high-level skeletal mage to add who summons two more vamp wolves. It seems SCS added the main vamp wolf's abilities, so Hard Times probably tossed in the skelmage. I managed to lure out only the wolf first to fight one at a time, but still. If there was also something in that mix that was leftover from DH the way the Morninglords have remained despite the "uninstall," maybe that would explain the overpowered foes. (Hard Times' readme did warn me in advance of whatever their part was, of course.)

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Fortunately, the number of actually imported joinable characters to BG2 is pretty small:
Jaheira, Viconia, Imoen, Edwin and Minsc.

Not to bring up anything significant, but I wonder why BGT chose those 5 in particular- 2 good, 2 evil, and 1 neutral? Or are they simply the only BG1 joinable NPCs that make it to BG2's story in Vanilla at all? And in that case given the popularity of Kivan and Xan, I wonder why they chose only those 5. As I recall I soloed BG2 also and only took on NPCs for their stronghold quests.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 09 janvier 2011 - 06:12 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Bhryaen wrote...
Honestly, no, and if I'd seen that on IA's readme, I'd have skipped IA.

It's the BG1 restoration components.

What I'm facing now is what you mentioned early on: that I'd find mods I don't want to play without.

I didn't want you to scrap them all.
You'll probably have figured it out to 99% with the next installation (or the one after that), it's just that your learning courve is much steeper than other people's, because we don't take so much into our curriculum at once.

Not to bring up anything significant, but I wonder why BGT chose those 5 in particular- 2 good, 2 evil, and 1 neutral? Or are they simply the only BG1 joinable NPCs that make it to BG2's story in Vanilla at all?

Yes to the latter. (others make it to BG2 as well, but they're not joinable any more, for example Tiax, Xzar and Quaile.
Truth be told, Xan and Branwen do make a short appearance as joinable NPCs in BG2, but that's in the tutorial which is removed by BGT)

And in that case given the popularity of Kivan and Xan, I wonder why they chose only those 5.

Maybe they wanted new characters. Or they thought it irrealistic that everybody would have travelled south just by coincidence.
I don't know the precise reason, but I for one certainly think that Xan would have been a more interesting a BG2 character than, say, Cernd.

As I recall I soloed BG2 also and only took on NPCs for their stronghold quests.

Then you missed much.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 09 janvier 2011 - 11:59 .

[Bhryaen]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Bhryaen wrote...
As I recall I soloed BG2 also and only took on NPCs for their stronghold quests.

Then you missed much.

Not to sound trite, but what did I miss? The dialogue? I just finished a BG1 game with Imoen creating her own personal magic items and making me an endearing necklace. Is that the type of thing I missed? In fact I pretty much soloed every single game in BG1 after my first. Even this game I used 3 of my own chars... a bit like IWD. I have a lot of trouble recruiting the much more vulnerable NPCs with their more average stats and tendencies to flee or start talking just as combat erupts.

As an update, numerous more bugs, but I finished the game after a measely 222 game days. (Lots of loot haul travel...) Is there a mod that allows you to leave the Bhaal temple after the end movie?

Most bugs were either broken DH stuff or minor things like Degreenifier not degreenifying the pools outside Durlag's. The IA/ 1PP avatar/ paperdoll modding was good even though the gnome avatar was still identical with a dwarf despite the change to a paperdoll that resembled a human child. (Gnomes are the most ignored race by modders!) I periodically let ambient sounds back on until the bogging would arise again. The game would CTD intermittently too- and repeatedly during the Aec'Letec battle for some reason- but I was saving often enough that it wasn't too unbearable, and it would be ok after running the same place again, so it's possibly not even an area-specific issue. I noticed that some mod made the random travel encounters a lot more bearable and realistic too- i.e., no more gibberling-bandit-bear ambushes where I must defend myself against completely disparate foes that by all rights should be attacking each other. Even the wyvern-spider ambush was substituted for one or the other. Which mod does that? I never selected anything explicitly mentioning it.

Although I prefer SCS's "call for help," it trades the unrealistic tendency of complacency about band members being attacked for the equally unrealistic tendency for enemies to know that my party is outside or far off simply because I'm scouting in the vicinity. Actually that helps though in a metagame sort of way because I can set up summons ambushes outside knowing full well they'll leave when my scout reenters, pinning them in, unable to fan out and make me scramble away from their melee and assassins. SCS's smarter IA ("kill the mages!") is cruel... but realistic. Definitely my favorite mod next to Widescreen & Item Randomizer.

I liked the idea behind Hard Times, but I think they neuter too much (Algernon cloak, Necklace of Missiles, etc. with only 3 charges, Monster Summoning/ Fire Wands with only 1 charge initially (and upgradable by resale only to 3 charges), etc.) If it would just stick with higher tendencies for metal items to break (which admittedly becomes irrelevant to the party once we've got enough magic) and higher prices until the iron industry is restored, I'd be glad of it. The mod description states openly that it's just about making the initial stages of the game- mostly before Baldur's Gate- harder due to economic hardship. Why would economic hardship make magic items less powerful- or even less available in stores since at that point there would be far fewer people buying them up? My biggest gripe is really that I think it ends up potentially conflicting with other item mods that way, particularly Item Randomizer which tries to swap out items in shops that have been Hard-Timed. If it were a separate component I'd simply leave the item revs out.

The other mod that seriously neutered the gameworld was Spell Revisions. I'm coming back after nearly a decade to BG1, but I definitely remember Charm and other spells lasting a lot longer. Still, it was par for the course and not a bug, so I'm sticking with it. Curiously it makes Lightning a useful spell by making the blast stop at the target rather than bounce around like having sprung a lightning trap. (Even when Silke would kill my entire party with that spell it would inevitably kill her too.) Other mods were more on the cheesy side like Potions or whichever mod installed item forging creators. (The one in FAI was the most notable.) Fortunately/ unfortunately most of the new merchants were "broken" somehow early on and wouldn't dialog any more. This didn't prevent me from buying excessive potions from the potion vendor... I also used some tweaks (successfully) like unrestricted arcane spellcasting in armor or protection item stacking, but won't be using in my next install because of the irresistibility of abuse... The Ashes of Embers option of leaving all weapons available will remain open because it really doesn't give any great advantages. A cleric with bastard sword is now less able to bash skeletons and still can only get one proficiency point in it, and a mage can wield a two-handed sword, but with 9 STR and 2 AC at best, Imoen wasn't going to be my tank even if she had the strength to wield it..

Item Rand seemed buggy, like you said, igneous.sponge, but I probably need to use it without Hard Times and in a clean, new install before I point blame at it. As it was I ended up without ever seeing the Tome of STR (*grumble*), any Ring of Wizardry, the +1 composite longbow, the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, or the Durlag flame sword (to mention the hardest losses) (EDIT: or the free ankheg armor), but I'm still not sure if I simply overlooked or missed them during my otherwise thorough searching, perhaps in a quest I didn't get. Actually I found extra belts of piercing and bluntness, so definitely issues. It may be indicative also that more than a few of the drop points were entirely empty rather than having something different (Candlekeep crypt and Durlag altar, for ex.,) or had the usual gems plus a broken weapon (Nashkell farm, I think). The mod gives the option of not tampering with items that other mods seem to be tampering with, and I selected that, but it doesn't list which items it deems in a tampered state, so I'm not sure if it accounts for all or what then happens to the randomizing process.

The larger quest mods have been largely a disappointment. DSotSC obviously was for me, and DH simply didn't work, though what I saw wasn't particularly interesting dialogue-wise. The Candlekeep "giant rat," as Grond0 called it, has the same dialogue as a Vanilla merc. Why not something new? I love all the different merc threats of Vanilla BG, but they all come across authentically- even endearingly- somehow. ("Stupid, stupid, STUPID! Now you die!") Grey Clan worked well and seemed very promising despite the odd voices (A for effort)- all up until the FAI "rework," when it took on DSotSC's tendency toward overbearing, uninteresting, and arbitrary gameworld changes, albeit on the overpowering rather than DSotSC cheesy side. I'd never recruited Khalid and Jaheira- not even spoke to them- so they were still in there... I guess... I just figure if you're going to change an existing area there should be certain standards, leaving alone as much as possible. The writing wasn't there, and the story didn't make the slightest sense at that point. Why... bother... to put a teleportation door at the FAI entrance? And if you're that powerful, why bother with the FAI? And why is the key golem outside? And how did the folks inside the temple avoid being attacked? Nevermind... Tweaks are one thing. Story additions/ changes are different. Call of the Sirenes was also surprisingly overpowering (uberpirates???), but I managed it and was ok with the dull dialogue. Vanilla dialogue is sooo much better than nearly anything I've seen modded other than UB1...

Hm, now that I think about it I have no idea what the Stone of Askavar was. hehehe I missed it somehow (ah, because I would have absolutely no reason in Chapt 5 to venture through the area north of Nashkell)- as also the NPC changes other than Imoen...

OK, enough opining on my limited mod experiences... On to the new mod order!

Modifié par Bhryaen, 19 janvier 2011 - 03:22 .

[Bhryaen]

Just as a belated response to Son of Imoen's suggestion some time ago... Instead of changing the .ini file for Tutu to reflect a new folder, I simply copied the entire Tutu folder itself (and thus requires the original folder) and put it in a clone folder which otherwise goes unused. Several times now (*sigh*) I've simply deleted the contents of the current nonfunctional EasyTutu folder and pasted the clone folder into it, so that the .ini always recognizes the same EasyTutu folder as the destination and no .ini changes are necessary. Anyway it works... and is in process once again...

[EDIT: Just discovered this page that shows a similar method of making a backup that involves using only select files from the backup to restore the game to "clean" status- much faster than copy-pasting the entire BG2 or Tutu folder, and allows me to leave my mod .exe's in place! Haven't tried it yet though...]

How I wanted to start with BGT this time, but for now the variables seem better kept in line with Tutu. Humanoid_Taifun's advice now changes to Tutu hehe...

Just to get a sense of how I'm doing in the mod-install process, how long does it usually take other mod-users to do their installs? I'm easily distracted if the install for each mod isn't instant, but still, the time factor is a factor, even if the learning curve is reducing the time somewhat...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 19 janvier 2011 - 04:52 .

[suttree]

Not to sound trite, but what did I miss?

I find BG2 NPC's have a very different feel than BG1 (even with the bg1npc mod). I never get all that attached to NPC's in BG1, but find it difficult to play BG2 without a party. I enjoy all the extra side quests, I enjoyed the Jaheira and Viconia romance arcs, and I enjoy the back and forth banter and conflict. Throw in a well written mod NPC, and the game feels much more immersive. A bit silly, perhaps, but I'm actually moved by some of the end of game bios after a long game with party. I don't get that feeling from BG1. In brief: BG1 feels like a game, BG2 feels like a story.
That said, there are many reasons to play BG; many enjoy solo or tactics focused play, and it does take some suspension of disbelief to get past occasional ridiculous dialogue.
H_Taifun is right when he says that the solo player "misses much" - there is a massive amount of content in BG2 that assumes party play - but there's no reason to beleive a player "misses out." It's just a matter of playstyle.

how long does it usually take other mod-users to do their installs?

My install takes a loooong time. I don't know exactly how long as I haven't automated my install and I usually have it running while I do something else. SCS and SCSII improved mages/clerics take the longest to install.
For reference, my most recent install (nice and stable) was:

Ascension
Fixpack
BGT
BG1 NPC
BG1 Unfinished Business
BG Quest Expansion
BGT Tweak
Unfinished Business
Banter Pack
DO Quest Pack
Item Revisions (CORE)
Spell Revisions
SCS 
Rogue Revisions
Item Revisions (GLOBAL)
SCSII
BG2 Tweaks
Level 1 NPCs

Not all components installed, of course.   NPCS as needed. A well balanced game, with no crazy items or experience, suitable for a playthrough from Candlekeep to the Throne.  I'll probably add some components from aTweaks next time I install.

PS. If you switch mods often you can automate your install and just let it chonk away while you go and be productive (productivity, yuck)

Modifié par suttree, 18 janvier 2011 - 05:25 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Bhryaen wrote...
Not to sound trite, but what did I miss? The dialogue? I just finished a BG1 game with Imoen creating her own personal magic items and making me an endearing necklace. Is that the type of thing I missed?

Baldur's Gate 2 owes a great deal of it's popularity to NPC interactions. If that's not your thing, then I apologize for the assumption.
I personally was not able to play through vanilla Icewind Dale because I found it so boring.

As an update, numerous more bugs, but I finished the game after a measely 222 game days. (Lots of loot haul travel...) Is there a mod that allows you to leave the Bhaal temple after the end movie?

BGT.

Although I prefer SCS's "call for help," it trades the unrealistic tendency of complacency about band members being attacked for the equally unrealistic tendency for enemies to know that my party is outside or far off simply because I'm scouting in the vicinity.

Yeah, it's a bit funny at times. I once had undead creatures from an entire dungeon try to rush at me - through a lava pit. Those that actually made it through were easy kills for my group. (shuffling through lava is probably why Darwin wanted them (un-)dead in the first place)

The other mod that seriously neutered the gameworld was Spell Revisions. I'm coming back after nearly a decade to BG1, but I definitely remember Charm and other spells lasting a lot longer.

I think you should blame BG2 for Charm. I also think there is no mod that restores the longer duration from BG1 for BG2.

A cleric with bastard sword is now less able to bash skeletons and still can only get one proficiency point in it,

Well, in BG2 things will change. With SR the cleric can have 2 base APR. Add Kundane and your bastard sword user will have 3 attacks per round with the same, all dealing maximum damage (and yes, they are likely going to hit) with strength 25.

and a mage can wield a two-handed sword, but with 9 STR and 2 AC at best, Imoen wasn't going to be my tank even if she had the strength to wield it..

Mostly true in BG1, though you could use the spells Strength, Blur, Mirror Image, Spirit Armor and Stoneskin (provided you have a mod that adds a few BG2 spells to BG1 of course), and the only thing she'll be missing is APR.
In BG2 the power will be with the spell slingers.

I just figure if you're going to change an existing area there should be certain standards, leaving alone as much as possible.

Yeah, old-school modding vs new-school modding...

Bhryaen wrote...
How
I wanted to start with BGT this time, but for now the variables seem
better kept in line with Tutu. Humanoid_Taifun's advice now changes to
Tutu hehe...

Don't you want to send your character further? He may actually get kidnapped, tortured, bereft of his soul... Things might get fun!

Just to get a sense of how I'm doing in the
mod-install process, how long does it usually take other mod-users to do
their installs? I'm easily distracted if the install for each mod isn't
instant, but still, the time factor is a factor, even if the learning
curve is reducing the time somewhat...

I usually have a general idea of what I'm planning to do before the installation (for instance "I'm going to be an archer and I shall woo Tashia into submission!"). From there to the actual game? Generally about 2-3 days, 1 of which is for the actual installation process. The last installation took me a bit longer, because I kept having problems with InfinityAnimations.

[Bhryaen]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Baldur's Gate 2 owes a great deal of it's popularity to NPC interactions. If that's not your thing, then I apologize for the assumption.
I personally was not able to play through vanilla Icewind Dale because I found it so boring.

I so very agree about IWD, though I kept finding it intriguing to start, making all my own chars. With no extra voices or interactions... no, combat isn't enough. But there's enough of a powergamer in me to resent the ability limitations of NPCs that I've tended to solo BG, even promising myself "some day" to recruit NPCs again just for the dialogue. I think playing again will require it...

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
I think you should blame BG2 for Charm. I also think there is no mod that restores the longer duration from BG1 for BG2.

This is interesting simply because I hadn't considered it. So Tutu/BGT's switch from BG1 rules to BG2 rules is a sort of Spell Revisions (and Item Revisions?) of its own? Hmm...

A cleric with bastard sword is now less able to bash skeletons and still can only get one proficiency point in it,

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Well, in BG2 things will change. With SR the cleric can have 2 base APR. Add Kundane and your bastard sword user will have 3 attacks per round with the same, all dealing maximum damage (and yes, they are likely going to hit) with strength 25.

STR25?? How? I couldn't even find the STR Tome! The Storm (Cloud?) Giant potion gives 24 STR as the max. I never did use anything from SR other than the spell revisions themselves, and at a decent level (maybe 8th or 9th?) my cleric/mage was still at 1APR.

and a mage can wield a two-handed sword, but with 9 STR and 2 AC at best, Imoen wasn't going to be my tank even if she had the strength to wield it..

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Mostly true in BG1, though you could use the spells Strength, Blur, Mirror Image, Spirit Armor and Stoneskin (provided you have a mod that adds a few BG2 spells to BG1 of course), and the only thing she'll be missing is APR.
In BG2 the power will be with the spell slingers.

I never found Stoneskin in any BG1 shop or location though it was used by many an opponent (and of course there's the potion). But does the item restriction for using an item change simply by magically increasing STR? What happens when the spell runs out? Provided you're right (and I haven't tested it) it's not exactly a major advantage if a large portion of Imoen's spell memorization is based on making her a tank instead of, say, enhancing more appropriate (and able) tanks and casting offensive spells while the tanks do their own thing.

I just figure if you're going to change an existing area there should be certain standards, leaving alone as much as possible.

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Yeah, old-school modding vs new-school modding...

Not a major matter but I'm curious: does my approach fit into "old" school or "new" school?

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Don't you want to send your character further? He may actually get kidnapped, tortured, bereft of his soul... Things might get fun!

DAMN DAMN DAMN! I'm halfway through a Tutu install now! *grumble, grumble* Yeah, I want to, particularly if I survive a No Reload Challenge (in which case I am 99% likely not to proceed into SoA/ ToB on any such basis) but considering it seriously I looked at the BGT download site, seeing in the Readme the myriad gamechangers added that Tutu didn't address (as far as I know). I considered all the mod changes I'd have to make accordingly and figured... this must be what Humanoid_Taifun was talking about regarding ease-of-install. But Humanoid_Taifun keeps enticing us to BGT... Fie on that Sirine!!! Perhaps I should jump ship to BGT regardless just for spite about being stuck forever in the Sarevok Bhaal Temple...

[Bhryaen]

suttree wrote...
My install takes a loooong time. I don't know exactly how long as I haven't automated my install and I usually have it running while I do something else. SCS and SCSII improved mages/clerics take the longest to install.
For reference, my most recent install (nice and stable) was:

Ascension
Fixpack
BGT
BG1 NPC
BG1 Unfinished Business
BG Quest Expansion
BGT Tweak
Unfinished Business
Banter Pack
DO Quest Pack
Item Revisions (CORE)
Spell Revisions
SCS 
Rogue Revisions
Item Revisions (GLOBAL)
SCSII
BG2 Tweaks
Level 1 NPCs

Not all components installed, of course.   NPCS as needed. A well balanced game, with no crazy items or experience, suitable for a playthrough from Candlekeep to the Throne.  I'll probably add some components from aTweaks next time I install.

PS. If you switch mods often you can automate your install and just let it chonk away while you go and be productive (productivity, yuck)

This link may be exceptionally useful to me! It's just a matter of using "rem" to suppress the ones I don't want (for now). Is your list presented in install order?

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Bhryaen wrote...
STR25?? How? I couldn't even find the STR Tome! The Storm (Cloud?) Giant potion gives 24 STR as the max. I never did use anything from SR other than the spell revisions themselves, and at a decent level (maybe 8th or 9th?) my cleric/mage was still at 1APR.

Don't forget that in BG2 your levels will begin where you left them in BG1. The new cap is at 2 950 000 XP (or 8 million with Throne of Bhaal).
In the vanilla game you use Holy Power, then you add Righteous Magic and finally Draw Upon Holy Might for a net effect of +40HP, fighter THAC0, + 5 on Dexterity and Constitution, Strength 25 and Maximum damage. Spell Revisions changes this a bit, removes the maximum damage and makes somewhat more difficult to reach strength 25 (you'll still be able to do it in the end though), but in return you get +1D6 of magical damage and extra attacks per round as if you were a fighter of the same level (+ ½ at levels 7 and 13).
In SR the combi is called Divine Power-Righteous Fury-Draw Upon Divine Might.

But does the item restriction for using an item change simply by magically increasing STR?

Yes.

What happens when the spell runs out?

Nothing. One of the exploitable bugs in the game.

Provided you're right (and I haven't tested it) it's not exactly a major advantage if a large portion of Imoen's spell memorization is based on making her a tank instead of, say, enhancing more appropriate (and able) tanks and casting offensive spells while the tanks do their own thing.

Correct, she'd usually be much more effective casting spells, though in my opinion a caster should always have a number of protective spells running, so in my game the only difference in buffs would be of offensive nature (Strength and the like). I really just said it to make a point though. Can't get enough of those lately.

Not a major matter but I'm curious: does my approach fit into "old" school or "new" school?

Back then there were not as many mods yet, and usually they were less compatible as well, so I'd say your attempt at a mega installation is rather new-school.

this must be what Humanoid_Taifun was talking about regarding ease-of-install. But Humanoid_Taifun keeps enticing us to BGT

Though I'm flattered by your deference to me, keep in mind that I'm just another gamer, just with a few more years of experience with the community than you.
Just for my last installation I started 2 help-me threads under another alias on different fora (so as not to destroy my all-important reputation).

Edit: Minor corrections as I spotted them.

Modifié par Humanoid_Taifun, 18 janvier 2011 - 11:14 .

[Grond0]

Bhryaen wrote...
But there's enough of a powergamer in me to resent the ability limitations of NPCs that I've tended to solo BG, even promising myself "some day" to recruit NPCs again just for the dialogue. I think playing again will require it...

If you want to change the stats, but not through Shadowkeeper etc then I suggest you install L1 NPCs.  This allows you to customize all the NPCs in the game (also many from mods).  When I've used it I've tended not to change attribute scores except as necessary to make a desired character legal, but the sky's the limit (well 25 actually)!

Modifié par Grond0, 18 janvier 2011 - 08:51 .

[Bhryaen]

A little not in keeping with the thread direction, but as I mentioned, BGT would require me to do more research so... *grumble* Found this:

SCS II Readme wrote...

A full installation of SCS II modifies most major villains ("bosses") and set-piece combats in the game. The only exceptions (that I can think of) are



* The Kuo-Toa prince [!!!!]

* The Rilmani

* Balthazar

The very same broken signature feller I found a bit ago... Curiouser & curiouser... I wonder why SCS II leaves that one alone...

[Bhryaen]

Grond0 wrote...
If you want to change the stats, but not through Shadowkeeper etc then I suggest you install L1 NPCs.  This allows you to customize all the NPCs in the game (also many from mods).  When I've used it I've tended not to change attribute scores except as necessary to make a desired character legal, but the sky's the limit (well 25 actually)!

I actually had that mod already in my last install but for some reason it didn't do anything special when Imoen joined. I reloaded in case I'd missed something, but no, so I figured it was a matter of being too low a level to take effect. Then later when rescuing NPCs I'd see the XP given to them, but I think it was as if added to their current XP, so they'd go up by maybe a level, and again there were no extra tweaking options. Is it supposed to work automatically? The readme tells what you're able to do but not any how.

On another note, after reexamining the mod readme I discovered that I don't even need Ashes of Embers since it's all there as components- a longer list of checkoffs than the single AoE install, but thereby one less mod to have to work in.

[EDIT: Removal of befuddlement, issue resolved]

Modifié par Bhryaen, 18 janvier 2011 - 11:54 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Bhryaen wrote...
for some reason it didn't do anything special when Imoen joined. I reloaded in case I'd missed something, but no, so I figured it was a matter of being too low a level to take effect. Then later when rescuing NPCs I'd see the XP given to them, but I think it was as if added to their current XP, so they'd go up by maybe a level, and again there were no extra tweaking options. Is it supposed to work automatically? The readme tells what you're able to do but not any how.

Do you maybe have an outdated version of Lvl1NPCs?
Usually after you've picked a character's class (and kit) it shows their attributes and asks you to confirm or change.

[Bhryaen]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

Not a major matter but I'm curious: does my approach fit into "old" school or "new" school?

Back then there were not as many mods yet, and usually they were less compatible as well, so I'd say your attempt at a mega installation is rather new-school.

No, no, I'd meant is it old school or new school to have repugnance for mods that use a heavy (and not particularly masterful) hand with manipulating VanillaBG material. Grey Clan first appropriated a house in NW Baldur's Gate- not a bad idea despite the oddity of so many half-ogres having made it through the streets in the first place, but ok. Then it suddenly puts a choke hold on the FAI, swamping it in overpowered foes without even a meaningful storyline to back it up. Or perhaps I simply haven't waded through the wind horrors yet to find out the clever plot reason why the FAI would've been so conspicuously siezed by some uberfoe. Just for having irked me, however, I think I'll be reloading that mod again since with BGT I can return one day with my own overpowering abilities and give 'em a taste of their own medicine!

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...

this must be what Humanoid_Taifun was talking about regarding ease-of-install. But Humanoid_Taifun keeps enticing us to BGT

Though I'm flattered by your deference to me, keep in mind that I'm just another gamer, just with a few more years of experience with the community than you.

Actually using you as the symbol of BGT Champion was more a jest intended for igneous.sponge because of what he said in deference to you a week or so back:

igneous.sponge wrote...
Heh, sorry your install has been so shambolically messy, Bhryaen. (In fact, I'm amazed you've been so patient!) Maybe we all should've just listened to Humanoid_Taifun when he said to go for BGT...

Of course igneous.sponge later admitted a preference for BGT (and BWP). He hasn't been around lately, but I still feel like he's part of the discussion, particularly for having left me his WeiDU log to keep perusing and gleaning from. Mostly I'm just trying to blame someone else for swamping myself in modding again rather than simply getting it over with and playing. I think BGT will be worth it though... if I get it working!

If suttree's .batmobile works for me, I'm hoping to avoid that most painfully tedious, time-consuming task of sorting through each and every component with every reinstall. If DH is messed up again... and I definitely want to give it another chance now in BGT with a somewhat new mod complement... I want to be able to do a reinstall with just a small edit and then a double-click on the batcher. I'm surprised the batcher thingy hasn't been streamlined into a mod of its own already.

Modifié par Bhryaen, 19 janvier 2011 - 12:26 .

[Bhryaen]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
... SCS will affect BG2 opponents in BGT, so unless you skip it, you don't really have much of a choice. That's not to say they'll be as good as with SCS2, just that they will know what they're doing (and mages may have a strange preference for spell levels 1-4).

I just found in the SCS2 readme this line that relates to this:

SCS II Readme wrote...
BGT players who want to use BG2-style spellcasting (sequencers, Remove Magic, Unholy Blight) right through the trilogy might want to experiment in not installing the SCS mage and priest AI, in which case the SCS II AI will apply to all spellcasters, even the BG ones. This is currently untested, though.

Have you tested it? Does it imbalance BG1 mages if the SCS mage/ priest AI is suppressed in favor of SCS2? Do BG1 spellslingers now have a strange preference for spell levels 5-7?

Modifié par Bhryaen, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:23 .

[Grond0]

Bhryaen wrote...

Grond0 wrote...
If you want to change the stats, but not through Shadowkeeper etc then I suggest you install L1 NPCs.  This allows you to customize all the NPCs in the game (also many from mods).  When I've used it I've tended not to change attribute scores except as necessary to make a desired character legal, but the sky's the limit (well 25 actually)!

I actually had that mod already in my last install but for some reason it didn't do anything special when Imoen joined. I reloaded in case I'd missed something, but no, so I figured it was a matter of being too low a level to take effect. Then later when rescuing NPCs I'd see the XP given to them, but I think it was as if added to their current XP, so they'd go up by maybe a level, and again there were no extra tweaking options. Is it supposed to work automatically? The readme tells what you're able to do but not any how.]

As Humanoid_Taifun says the changes you want should be made at the time you install the mod, not during the game itself.  If you've got the latest version then I suspect the reason you did not notice an option to change characters was because you had already installed the element of SCS called level 0 characters (or something like that) that allows you to pick weapon specialisms etc at the time the characters join.  As this is incompatible with L1 NPCs the latter will skip over any BG1 characters during the install.

Edit: reading through the posts I noticed I had referred above to changing stats in L1 NPCs to make a character legal.  In case this is misleading I'll qualify that this is purely for role-playing reasons - you can build and run a character with 'illegal' stats under L1 NPCs (just as Bioware did with a number of the original BG1 characters).  There might actually be good role-playing reasons for this - I've made Imoen a bard in my current game; I am happy with her high charisma, but could easily envisage a bard of charisma 3.  You might have some reason for wishing to play with a fighter of strength 3 (though I find this a bit more difficult to envision)!

Modifié par Grond0, 19 janvier 2011 - 08:42 .

[DMWW]

Bhryaen wrote...

A little not in keeping with the thread direction, but as I mentioned, BGT would require me to do more research so... *grumble* Found this:

SCS II Readme wrote...
A full installation of SCS II modifies most major villains ("bosses") and set-piece combats in the game. The only exceptions (that I can think of) are

* The Kuo-Toa prince [!!!!]
* The Rilmani
* Balthazar

The very same broken signature feller I found a bit ago... Curiouser & curiouser... I wonder why SCS II leaves that one alone...

I can't think of anything interesting to do with him. 

As a point of interest, the Rilmani have been on my to-do list for ages, and I can't really be bothered to improve on Ascension Balthazar. (This list is a relic of a much longer list that I've been chipping away at since SCSII first came out.)

On a different note, could someone explain this "SCS unrealistic Help" issue in more detail? It sounds like something that ought to be sorted out.

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Bhryaen wrote...
No, no, I'd meant is it old school or new school to have repugnance for mods that use a heavy (and not particularly masterful) hand with manipulating VanillaBG material.

What should I say to that? There have always been people who avoided mods. Some people avoid the G3 Fixpack because in their opinion it changes too much, too drastically, and they use Baldurdash and selfwritten stuff to fix all the bugs in the game.

with BGT I can return one day with my own overpowering abilities and give 'em a taste of their own medicine!

BGT does not connect the maps of BG1 and BG2. You cannot just move from the areas of one game to the other. When you are done with BG1, you tell a specific NPC you're ready to proceed to Amn, and that's the last you see of the eponymic city. You can of course import your high level character and start BG1 again.
(I did this once with a level 31 sorcerer, and it took me a few minutes and a couple of Dragon Breaths to walk through the first couple of chapters before I got bored)

Actually using you as the symbol of BGT Champion was more a jest intended for igneous.sponge because of what he said in deference to you a week or so back:

Okay, then I apologize for ruining your fun. orz

[Humanoid_Taifun]

[quote]Bhryaen wrote...
Have you tested it? Does it imbalance BG1 mages if the SCS mage/ priest AI is suppressed in favor of SCS2? Do BG1 spellslingers now have a strange preference for spell levels 5-7?[/quote]
The problem would not be what they'd omit (even in BG2, mages can cast Magic Missile), but in what they'd be able to use. I haven't tested it, and I don't know how high their caster levels would be, but even level 5 and level 6 spells can radically change their power.
[quote]DMWW wrote...
I can't really be bothered to improve on Ascension Balthazar.[/quote]
And what about those that don't wish to install Ascension?
On a different note, could someone
explain this "SCS unrealistic Help" issue in more detail? It sounds like
something that ought to be sorted out.[/quote]
[quote]Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Yeah,
it's a bit funny at times. I once had undead creatures from an entire
dungeon try to rush at me - through a lava pit. Those that actually made
it through were easy kills for my group.[/quote]
I was referring to the Temple Ruins of Amaunator. The corridor is U shaped, and so the AI thought I was close to the creatures much earlier than it should have.
I'm not 100% sure which SCS version that was, but I think it was version 15.

[Bhryaen]

DMWW wrote...
On a different note, could someone explain this "SCS unrealistic Help" issue in more detail? It sounds like something that ought to be sorted out.

What Humanoid_Taifun said is one example regarding proximity. Another few I encountered were these:

1. There would be an interior battleground- say, the Mountain Maulers scene, since it happened there. My fighter-rogue would trigger them by unstealthing, initiating the battle, then bolting to the hotel upstairs and stealthing. One of them followed me up there (usually the one relatively near me just as I click the stairs-up trigger). The rest magically knew that the rest of my party was outside, but the rogue took a moment to stealth himself and the mage did some initial defense preparations, so they stayed there. The archer and a tank simply proceeded outside. How did they know I was there? Actually I wasn't ready for them at all and didn't know they were attacking until I saw damage on one of my outside chars. I was concentrating on my rogue's duck-and-hide maneuver.

As absurd as it is that they knew my party was outside, it was a fun surprise- way more fun than fog-of-war cheese... but, yes, a bit unrealistic. It's maybe a sort of bug, but if it is, the "standing there like a dope while the guy next to you is shot to death" AI is also a bug. This is why I'm not so sure it needs to be sorted out, but if the unrealism is

The unrealism continued because after the outside battle was over and my fighter/rogue killed the upstairs guy, he stealthed again and proceeded downstairs against the mage and fellow rogue, but a second after returning downstairs in stealth (and not before then) the mage and maybe another tank who had initially drank a potion or something decided that they too would proceed outside. They somehow knew my rogue was there despite his stealth (and nondetection) and decided that he was simply an opponent on the battleground who had just cast Invisibility on himself or something. This time I had a nice ambush for them. Actually the rogue never did go out and I only ended up discovering him later when I returned for the Helm of Balduran.

A similar example would be Neira (sp?) from the Nashkell Inn. My old vanilla technique of backstab, then hide, then repeat didn't work so well because after the initial backstab and hide, she instantly knew I'd left the rest of the party outside and headed straight out. I saw her trajectory though and was able to do a little preparation (they were right outside the door.) So stealth essentially doesn't neutralize their movements. My initial attack (or simple appearance) is enough to alert them to exactly where the rest of the party is. I think I was able to bypass this by adding layers of concealment- hiding the rest of the party in the upstairs of another house. That was enough to confuse them as to which route to take. In an open area it just isn't possible.

If this is any consolation, I was able to take on the entire bandit camp in three sections rather than all at once. I had positioned most of my party in the SW corner while the rogue again crept up to the western edge of the encampment. After backstabbing a bandit the alert went up and I took off and may have stealthed again on my way back to the SW corner. I ended up getting only a portion of bandits and Black Talons as well as the Big Four from the tent. Then I headed circuitously along the south toward the tent and took on another group including Taugauz (sp?). Finally I was surprised when I was simply on a treasure hunt back to the Chill section and found a number of Chill (including the melee captain) and bandits still grouped around- I believe at the spot where I'd backstabbed the original bandit. In short, it wasn't as unrealistic though the initial battle was fairly odd. If an alert goes out, I can imagine bandits fanning out all over the place looking, but making a straight run right at the party, well... Anyway, I managed, and again, it was fun.

2. Hm, if I think of an issue of a different type, I'll add it...

Modifié par Bhryaen, 19 janvier 2011 - 02:59 .

[Bhryaen]

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
You cannot just move from the areas of one game to the other. When you are done with BG1, you tell a specific NPC you're ready to proceed to Amn, and that's the last you see of the eponymic city.

Damn... I thought maybe the Worldmap mod or something showed all areas. Alternately I was imagining there was some new area in the south of BG1's map or north of the BG2 map. Oh, well...

Bhryaen wrote...
Actually using you as the symbol of BGT Champion was more a jest intended for igneous.sponge because of what he said in deference to you a week or so back:

Humanoid_Taifun wrote...
Okay, then I apologize for ruining your fun. orz

Well, I actually have been reading your posts, and it's not as if you don't regularly mention BGT as a solution most everywhere. You started on this thread saying you don't even know why anyone uses Tutu anymore, but then you hastened to mention that BGT isn't the easy road, and I decided partly due to that reality that I might be better off just doing another Tutu install. Then you said, "Don't you want to take your character further?" and hooked me on BGT again! How dare you! And it's probably for the better...

Actually I had a bit of an epiphany this morning and, while drawing up a comprehensive list of all the mods I want and/ or am interested in, I finally listened to what you and others have said. There are just too many variables to start out with, and I got in trouble with DH because I didn't have a basis from which to proceed in even knowing it was an issue with DH. BGT is yet another new gameworld environment for me, so it becomes only more prudent not to simply jumble up a bunch of maybe-good mods and just cross my fingers on stability. I think if I can get a core group of (subjectively-determined) essential tweak mods first that all work together without stepping on each other's toes, then I can proceed with, well, most concerningly the quest mods. My new mod list will look more like suttree's (or so I'm aiming).

[EDIT:
Another thing that the Great Humanoid_Taifun said has been sticking in my head:

So sayeth the Great Humanoid_Taifun... (should really be sung...)
I usually have a general idea of what I'm planning to do before the
installation (for instance "I'm going to be an archer and I shall woo
Tashia into submission!").

This seems really key to modding. Unlike you, I have no idea what I'm doing before the installation. Given that I put so many new things in at once, it's more like "I'm going to sew chaos before me... and then try to have fun in it." I think I'm supposed to sew chaos in my wake not in my impending path. I should probably look at each run as a test run of sorts which means now my goal is to make a stable gameworld from which to branch out.]

I might still add mods that don't seem to affect anything other than their own material. I'm starting to resent mods that affect more than their primary material- i.e., a hypothetical NPC mod that also changes a few spells and core monsters and an area- just enough to throw a wrench into the works. Modders apparently ought to be minimalist as well to be effective, at least if they want their mods to apply universally. That's why the Charm Patch works- nothing more to it. But it really falls to the mod-user to employ them properly and be discriminating.

Hard Times is very frustrating on this ground. I really like the mod- enough that I don't want to proceed without it. It almost feels like cheese not to use it. But it changes items, and- something I hadn't noted in the readme before- does it's own item randomizing for (some of) the items found earlier in the game in order to put them on bosses and, essentially just keep them out of your hands until then. I wondered why the bosses always had so much more stuff on them. It's not a bad idea, but it then makes a mess of mods dealing with stores, item revs, and item randomizations. Item Randomizer can make what of that new situation? Which randomization takes place first? I can't think of how I could (generally) script Item Rand so that it would work with the Hard Times world, recognizing neutered items and stores as such, then devising different randomization scheme around it for the rest of the items. As far as I know maybe it does work ok that way given that my game was so broken from other mod issues, but I may just have to leave out the Randomizer... *grumble* Is Hard Times still being developed?

Modifié par Bhryaen, 19 janvier 2011 - 06:19 .

[Bhryaen]

[double-post...]

Modifié par Bhryaen, 19 janvier 2011 - 03:44 .

[Humanoid_Taifun]

Bhryaen wrote...
Damn... I thought maybe the Worldmap mod or something showed all areas.

It does, it just doesn't allow you to visit them.

Well, I actually have been reading your posts, and it's not as if you don't regularly mention BGT as a solution most everywhere. You started on this thread saying you don't even know why anyone uses Tutu anymore, but then you hastened to mention that BGT isn't the easy road, and I decided partly due to that reality that I might be better off just doing another Tutu install. Then you said, "Don't you want to take your character further?" and hooked me on BGT again! How dare you! And it's probably for the better...

Yeah, it happens often to me that I make up my own mind about stuff while trying to explain matters to somebody else.

That's why the Charm Patch works- nothing more to it.

Of course, the charm patch is one of the very few mods that attack the .exe itself.

Hard Times is very frustrating on this ground. I really like the mod- enough that I don't want to proceed without it. It almost feels like cheese not to use it.

How about replacing it with a number of mods?
Item Revisions can take care of overpowered items (if you want it to), SCS has a component that removes unrealistically helpful stuff from containers (like all the ammunition), Aurora's Shoes And Boots can make buying stuff a bit more difficult, and Item Randomizer can be left as the only mod to randomize items.