145 réponses à ce sujet

[Saren100]

So with the invention of thermal clips every gun in the galaxy seems to have undergone the upgrade to have these clips. The thing is that doesnt really make that much sence the thermal clip was introduced after the attack on the citadel which means that in less then 2 years every gun underwent the upgrade to be able to have a thermal clip.

There is no possible way that the millions of gun bearing soldiers, mercenaries, citizens of the galaxy could have upgraded to this system of thermal clips.

It took many years for armies to change from swords to muskets and then muskets to rifles then rifles to semi automatic rifles and then finnaly assault rifles. And yet in the space of less then two years everyone has got one of these new rifles and has apparently melted down there old one.

Also from what I understand the normandy was destroyed within a few months after the battle of the citadel how could shepard have knowledge of thermal clips.? In the first mission when miranda tells you to pick up the pistol when you do shepard says that the pistol posseses no thermal clip.

So yea pretty strange in my opinion.

[Katamariguy]

It's been a century, things change fast.

[RiouHotaru]

Man, this never stops coming up, huh? The codex and even the manual explain this.

[StarcloudSWG]

Some people can't figure out that all "Thermal clips" are are modular versions of the heatsinks which used to be just integrated and non-interchangeable.



This despite all the available information in the game.



Yes, there should be old weapons still hanging around and in use. Guess what? Shepard's not limited to using old weapons. He gets the new stuff.

[Phaelducan]

Still, the guns should cool down over time to a standard 1 clip capacity. I liked the clip systems in ME2, but it doesn't make any sense that once you are out of clips, if you fire a Sniper Rifle it mysteriously stays hot forever... or until you find another clip.

[RiouHotaru]

@Starcloud:

And thank god for that, the old stuff is crap unless you willing to spend over several million credits total.

[C'mon, you remember purchasing Spectre VII gear and then finding/purchasing your Frictionless Materials/Scram Rail-combo which broke the game, right?]

@Phaelducan:

It doesn't "stay hot forever", the in-game info specifically states guns have mechanisms which prevents them from firing if they have no clips in.  It's a safety measure to prevent overheating and subsequent damage to the gun's parts that would inevitably result from said overheating.

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:06 .

[Phaelducan]

@Riou Yeah, I know, but that doesn't make any sense. The physical clip sits in the weapon, doing nothing until the weapon discharges. Then bang, it fires, and the gun sits there until you manually reload it. The gun will physically cool down on it's own (in a literal sense, as in whatever heat the shot generated will vent and disperse) regardless of whether you reload it. After a few seconds or even minutes, they gun would be cool to the touch.



Logically, that would mean that even without spare "ammo" you could just load an empty thermal clip into the slot and the gun should be able to fire because it's already cold.



I read the description, I just don't buy it, and I don't mean the cool wiz-bang sci-fi explanation. I mean the literal interpretation of the mechanics as Bioware describes them.

[belwin]

the answer is simple:

according to sociologists and authours (think stephen bertman authour of "hyperculture: the cost of human speed" if you don't know any), the more technology a culture pocesses, the faster change via tech is brought about.
soo, after the citadel attack, advanced tech + paranoria = UPGRADE THEM SOLDIERS FAST.

plus y'know, in the 19th century when muskets got popular, peopel were opposed (luddites),
while others accepted.
fear of the geth led to faster acceptance of newer, better guns.

oh and there is a whole galaxy with many mega corps producting them,
yeah that might have something to do with it.

i wish people would use some imagination now and then. it does wonders.

Modifié par belwin, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:39 .

[RiouHotaru]

Well, obviously gameplay wise they don't the show the gun ever actually being empty or without a clip in it. Also, the clip absorbs the heat, so the gun remains cool [I think] regardless. And I believe the temperatures reached are pretty darn hot. Zaeed uses a spent clip to ignite the fuel that takes out Vido, or to accidently blow himself up. For something to be hot enough to cause that? Yowza.

[belwin]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Well, obviously gameplay wise they don't the show the gun ever actually being empty or without a clip in it. Also, the clip absorbs the heat, so the gun remains cool [I think] regardless. And I believe the temperatures reached are pretty darn hot. Zaeed uses a spent clip to ignite the fuel that takes out Vido, or to accidently blow himself up. For something to be hot enough to cause that? Yowza.

i'd imagine it'd get as hot as any other gun that had no heatsink, even from other games.
example?
 
don't hate on me for a halo reference. 



seems that a fully armoured super suit can't even keep the heat out, for he is holding that plasma pistol like it's a ball of fire in some randoms dude's hands.

and the guns from ME1 somewhat in a vague way, reminded me of halo's plasma weps,
but maybe thats just me.

Modifié par belwin, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:48 .

[RiouHotaru]

Well, that I know of, no ME weapon uses charged plasma. The small arms all fire actual bullets. So I don't think it's completely accurate. Also, those weapons didn't have heatsinks of ANY kind, likely because they aren't flinging projectiles at opponents using mass-accelerator fields, which produces a LOT of heat.

...Which technically means ME shields are several leagues tougher than Halo shields.

Oh crap, ME vs. Halo in three, two....

Modifié par RiouHotaru, 10 décembre 2010 - 11:55 .

[Phaelducan]

I agree that the Thermal Clips are cool, and a good idea for gameplay. What I was getting at Riou, was that you don't have to put a new clip in after you empty your current capacity. You go boom, and it stays empty until you manually click reload. If the clip is hot, ok I get it, but eventually it will cool down. Even if it's about as hot as a car cigarette lighter (which could light fuel easily and gets red hot), those cool down in about a minute if left exposed to air. I'm not saying that the guns should instantly regenerate one full thermal clip's worth, but if you are hanging out for a bit then you ought to get at least one clip to cool down enough to pop back in.



In any case, I do like them, it just doesn't make sense for you to never be able to get ANY ammo capacity out of your weapons once you run out of clips, even if everything sits for half an hour.

[RiouHotaru]

Except that the expended thermal clip likely gets a LOT hotter than a car cigarette lighter. Remember, using mass-accelerator fields to fling projectiles about the size of a pea or so at speeds that tear though kinetic barriers and armor. That takes a LOT of energy and probably generates a LOT of friction.

[adam_grif]

Shepard may well have fought dozens of enemies that were not using thermal clips in their guns, but you wouldn't know, because it's not like you stopped and checked their guns.

[rokeeb]

I don't think all the old guns were 'melted down', but just all of them were retrofitted with the new heat sink system.

And who knows, maybe the old heat sinks can be used in the new heat sink system, that's how you could get ammo on Jacob's loyalty mission.

Modifié par rokeeb, 10 décembre 2010 - 12:08 .

[Chuvvy]

Mass Effect has a ****ton of plotholes. Accept it.

[belwin]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Well, that I know of, no ME weapon uses charged plasma. The small arms all fire actual bullets. So I don't think it's completely accurate. Also, those weapons didn't have heatsinks of ANY kind, likely because they aren't flinging projectiles at opponents using mass-accelerator fields, which produces a LOT of heat.

...Which technically means ME shields are several leagues tougher than Halo shields.

Oh crap, ME vs. Halo in three, two....

bwahahaum,
you have found my secret plan to make ME look better than Halo.
yeah, that's it.
i didn't forget about the projectiles.

[Sparda Stonerule]

First off, the heat warps the heck out of the clip. The sinks are a material meant to absorb heat, so whenever they get so hot that they need to be expended they warp. So even if a warped clip cooled it would be so bent that firing the gun would be dangerous.



Anyway you are all aware that even the guns in ME 1 had Ammo "blocks" right? They chipped off tiny pellets to fire at a target. So technically you would need to change the block in a gun every so often. But even if you stand in one spot and fire a gun for several hours in ME 1 you never have to replace anything.[sarcasm] Talk about unrealistic. [/sarcasm]

[Phaelducan]

They can't be too hot or the simple act of ejecting them would cause proximity burns. Shrug, it's not a big deal really unless you are playing a Sniper of some sort. Silly to be fully invested in a weapon you can only fire 9 times.... period.

Edit: Doesn't the codex in ME1 mention firing off tens of thousands of rounds per ammo block? I would suppose that the game simply doesn't code the the possibility that you'd fire that many rounds in a firefight.

I don't remember the codex about the Thermal Clips warping (not saying I don't believe you, I just don't remember it). If they do warp then it makes more sense, although you'd think an omni-tool could make whatever fine adjustments were needed to fit it back into the casing. It just makes sense that there would be some investment by the Alliance Military to make sure that it's soldiers always had some ability to retain combat ability, even if it was waiting for a Thermal clip to cool, then re-shaping/re-casting it to fit into the gun.

You run out of ammo SO fast in ME2, especially on Insanity, that it seems that the trade-offs don't outweigh the cons of the new system (not from gameplay, as again I like the clips, but from a lore perspective). There would need to be some way for guns to be able to fire at least a couple of rounds once thermal clips were expended.

Modifié par Phaelducan, 10 décembre 2010 - 12:20 .

[RiouHotaru]

Well, until you get the Viper...or the Incisor...or the Widow. Ahhhh, being a sniper is such fun~

[Phaelducan]

That's another thing. Say an SMG clip has 40 capacity. So you fire 39 shots, and for whatever reason you leave the 1 in there for a long time. Why doesn't that clip ever regenerate capacity? It isn't warped, it's not damaged... it's clearly safe as you are still technically using it until you fire that last shot. Why would you be able to wait for hours, possibly even days with that 1 round left in the clip and never have the capacity go up. It can't just be a matter of fresh clip = full capacity every time. If it was, and it wasn't in some way related to actual, literal heat, then when you changed clips from 1 to 40, you would lose that other shot forever. Your overall firing capacity would go down by the remainder of the clip. The fact that you keep your overall capacity when you reload strongly implies to me that the clips themselves are usable as long as they have even that low % of the clip capacity.



..... and if they are usable at all you they should cool down over time and re-use them.

[RiouHotaru]

That, my friend, is a gameplay versus story problem. The story explains why the thermal clips are now the standard, but it can't explain why the game operates. It's true, in your situation, going off of story, it might work that way. But gameplay and story often have conflicts that can't be solved. This is one of them.

[Sparda Stonerule]

Well here's the thing about the Thermal clip system compared to the normal ammo block system. The sinks absorb so much more heat because the guns fire larger rounds that fly faster. So anyone who uses the new Thermal Clip system will do more damage than they could with the old guns. So since that is the case the first groups that would upgrade would be Military organizations and Merc groups. After that everyone would want to upgrade so they don't get absolutely slaughtered.



The only strange thing about thermal clips is that they drop from Collector's and on Jacob's loyalty mission. But I chalk that up to gameplay necessity. It would be kind of balls if we never got any ammo during Collector missions or on Jacob's loyalty mission.



I do agree the ammo stuff is rather poorly explained, and I had to do tons of research to find out what the heck was up with the ammo stuff. But all you have to do is watch a Widow or Revenant fire and look for the bullet shape to realize these new guns are firing much larger rounds than any gun in ME 1.

[Phaelducan]

Fair enough to that, and I'm not complaining. It IS better than the ammo in ME1, I just think there is room to tweak the Thermal Clip system in ME3 to either allow for a slowly regenerating ammo capacity or to more fully explain why the clips don't ever lose heat over time.

[Jagri]

I guess everyone in the future tends to go full auto rather then disciplined burst fire. It would be the only way to explain why they would think ejectable thermal clips is superior. I remember a certain outpost in Mass Effect under siege by Rachni for more then 18 hours. If they had to deal with the new thermal clip system I imagined Shepard would discover a deserted outpost rather then one barely holding on.