145 réponses à ce sujet

[Fredvdp]

The biggest plothole is that the crew of the Hugo Gernsback have thermal clips even though they've been isolated for ten years. They also have mechs and if I recall correctly they were only introduced after the geth attack on the Citadel.

[Katamariguy]

adam_grif wrote...

Shepard may well have fought dozens of enemies that were not using thermal clips in their guns, but you wouldn't know, because it's not like you stopped and checked their guns.

You just took the thermal clips they were carrying.

[TelexFerra]

Fredvdp wrote...

The biggest plothole is that the crew of the Hugo Gernsback have thermal clips even though they've been isolated for ten years. They also have mechs and if I recall correctly they were only introduced after the geth attack on the Citadel.

It's a conspirashhy

[Packa]

Just my two cents.



It makes sense to me why they exist in game. The new heat sinks allowed the weapon to be fired more often, or perhaps increase the speed the weapon can fire its projectiles, thus increasing kinetic damage.



The reason you cant reuse old clips is because you eject them. They would be made of a magic sc-fi material that is good at absorbing heat, and you eject it once it has reached its max. You can see it pop out a a tiny bit of slag when you reload a new sink.



Oh, and they did have rifles during the time of the musket. Go watch the Sharpe series

[Wolfknight581]

I'm against regenerating thermal clips. Firing a bullet at the speed in Mass Effect's lore would create enough heat for the thing to dissipate entirely. But a thermal clip should be made easily enough with the help of omni-tools as long you have raw material to work with.



Plus it helps the full auto issue.



But then again. Some guns these days, even assault rifles, don't come with a full auto feature. If you'd take a normal ME2 firefight with regular guns, and everybody firing at full auto, it'd be over in about a minute and a half because everybody ran out of ammo. So an ME1 style gun with a burst fire mode like the Vindicator or the Incisor would make a lot more sense realistically. @_@

[Zulu_DFA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Man, this never stops coming up, huh? The codex and even the manual explain this.

The codex and the manual explanation sucks. Becasue it is in contradiction with Jessie, Ron Taylor's mechs, and Shepard's first line upon awakening from the Lazarus project. It also contradicts the basics of military science that says that unlimited ammo is better than limited ammo.

The real explanation is this: IT IS A RETCON. In unmodded ME2 world weapons always worked on thermal clips.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 10 décembre 2010 - 03:25 .

[Vaenier]

It is better to just say there were always heat sinks in existence. They were not invented and distributed to the entire galaxy in only 2 years... and they did not travel back in time 10 years with the mechs to get onto Jacob's father's planet... And they did not replace a far more effective system... And all the old super guns suddenly disappeared... ya...

They were always that way, you just had access to the cool guns for being a specter...

I wish i had whatever they were smoking when they decided to make this change.

[yoda23]

Katamariguy wrote...

It's been a century, things change fast.

uh, 2 years Shepherd was out, not the century you refer to... And yeah pretty disappointed in this ammo clip nonsense. Lost a ton of game complexity when the heat system was removed. The heat system made your shields, armor and barriers much more important than they are now. Meaning if your gun were to overheat in a firefight your shields could still carry you through. now it is just another COD dumpster-dive for more ammo. Pretty sad.

[MrDizazta]

I am tired of people asking why they cannot fire a gun without any clips. For one thing you don't have any heat sinks left. So if you fire the gun without the heat sinks guess what gets really hot. Don't you think the companies would put in a fail safe so the gun cannot be fired without a thermal clip.

[yoda23]

Vaenier wrote...

It is better to just say there were always heat sinks in existence. They were not invented and distributed to the entire galaxy in only 2 years... and they did not travel back in time 10 years with the mechs to get onto Jacob's father's planet... And they did not replace a far more effective system... And all the old super guns suddenly disappeared... ya...
They were always that way, you just had access to the cool guns for being a specter...
I wish i had whatever they were smoking when they decided to make this change.

+1:wizard:

[lazuli]

It's all about gameplay. Story and characters should make sense from a lore perspective. Gameplay, within reasonable limits, should not be bound by the same rules. I would argue that switching the ammo system falls within reasonable limits, though I know there are plenty who disagree with me.

[Jzadek72]

Yes, it's a plothole/retcon. But the explanation is relatively solid, although slightly flawed, and could have been a lot worse. And it's retcon about how you fire your gun. Does it matter that much? It's slightly jarring on the first minute of your first playthrough, and that's about it.

[Luigitornado]

You have no way of knowing that everyone is using DISPOSABLE thermal clips. Does every enemy drop them? No.

[Slayer299]

edit - removed comment, misread previous post.

Modifié par Slayer299, 10 décembre 2010 - 06:25 .

[Darth_Ultima]

Don't get me started on the whole ammo system. I HATE it as it is implemented in ME2. In long firefights I always run out of ammo and have to break cover to grab more ammo which would be suicide in a firefight in multiplayer because everyone would shoot you when you broke cover. There is a mod for the PC version of ME2 that uses a hybrid of the two ME games systems. If you overheat you can eject the thermal clip and reload but if you stop shooting your gun it will cool down. I would have preferred that over the system that they have now which I tolerate, but I still hate.  Its the flipping future for crying out loud the first games system was more futuristic. I can understand having sniper rifles and heavy weapons require ammo because of how powerful they are but shotguns, pistols, and assault rifles is retarded.

Modifié par Darth_Ultima, 10 décembre 2010 - 06:31 .

[RiouHotaru]

Man, this wheel never stops turning:



The codex/manual explaination states that for squads/platoons/etc, with the old system there was a significant drop in the RoF [Rate of Fire] because with judicious burst fire, there were still several seconds where you had to wait for your gun to cool. This new system allows for more continuous and consistent RoFs, because whoever puts more bullets into the wind during an exchange WILL usually win. And spending several precious seconds waiting to cooldown between bursts is inferior to the instanteous effect of reloading a thermal clip. Sure you could run out of clips, but any exchange would and should be over LONG before that becomes an issue.



Jessie is Bioware making a throwback joke, she's one of the old NON-thermal clip using weapons, the fact Zaeed talked about mowing own hundreds of men without having to pause is them making self-referencial humor. We all remember how with the proper end-game mods, you could have a gun which was basically a full-auto Rambo-style weapon. This was also one of the game's WEAKNESSES.



As for the Hugo Gernsback having Mechs, I believe the ME timeline allows for them to have those, that could be explained as prototypes. As for thermal clips? Two reasonable explainations:



a] Bioware didn't want to have to program one section of the game to follow a system totally alien and removed from the rest of the game by having the crew NOT use thermal clips.



b] The upgrade was in the early stages of being widely used and released among corporations, and Ronald Taylor's employers gave such weapons to the crew as part of their outfit.



The former is much more likely than the latter, which is a classic 'story vs gameplay' which could not be avoided. It's not a huge break anyhow.



As for Shepard waking up and knowing about it, again, as someone who had connections to top Alliance Brass, Shepard was probably aware of the work on thermal clips as an upgrade, even if it was only in the development stages. Especially if it was slated for widespread military use.



Aka NOT a plothole.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

It could maybe possibly be all magic which could maybe possibly be part of the ME universe so it's totally not a plothole.



Also, the fact that a person is immune to changes in gravity because they're wearing a piece of armor is not a plothole. Again, magic.

[Darth_Ultima]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Man, this wheel never stops turning:

The codex/manual explaination states that for squads/platoons/etc, with the old system there was a significant drop in the RoF [Rate of Fire] because with judicious burst fire, there were still several seconds where you had to wait for your gun to cool. This new system allows for more continuous and consistent RoFs, because whoever puts more bullets into the wind during an exchange WILL usually win. And spending several precious seconds waiting to cooldown between bursts is inferior to the instanteous effect of reloading a thermal clip. Sure you could run out of clips, but any exchange would and should be over LONG before that becomes an issue.

Jessie is Bioware making a throwback joke, she's one of the old NON-thermal clip using weapons, the fact Zaeed talked about mowing own hundreds of men without having to pause is them making self-referencial humor. We all remember how with the proper end-game mods, you could have a gun which was basically a full-auto Rambo-style weapon. This was also one of the game's WEAKNESSES.

As for the Hugo Gernsback having Mechs, I believe the ME timeline allows for them to have those, that could be explained as prototypes. As for thermal clips? Two reasonable explainations:

a] Bioware didn't want to have to program one section of the game to follow a system totally alien and removed from the rest of the game by having the crew NOT use thermal clips.

b] The upgrade was in the early stages of being widely used and released among corporations, and Ronald Taylor's employers gave such weapons to the crew as part of their outfit.

The former is much more likely than the latter, which is a classic 'story vs gameplay' which could not be avoided. It's not a huge break anyhow.

As for Shepard waking up and knowing about it, again, as someone who had connections to top Alliance Brass, Shepard was probably aware of the work on thermal clips as an upgrade, even if it was only in the development stages. Especially if it was slated for widespread military use.

Aka NOT a plothole.

The fact that you have to create such a long post defending it says alot.  You can justify it all you want, and I will still hate it.  I prefered the first ME's heat system better.  Out of all the gameplay changes made to the game this was the only place I felt like they took a step back.

[RiouHotaru]

I created a long post to address the different points people have. Sure you may not like it, but that doesn't mean the reasons for it being there are weak. Christina herself said it was a welcome change to testers who hated the fact enemies in the first game were glorified bullet sponges who spammed Immunity as the only means to counter Shepard's trigger finger.

[Mystranna Kelteel]

RiouHotaru wrote...
Christina herself said it was a welcome change to testers who hated the fact enemies in the first game were glorified bullet sponges who spammed Immunity as the only means to counter Shepard's trigger finger.

That has nothing to do with whether or not the feature is a plot hole.

[Nhani]

Zulu_DFA wrote...
The codex and the manual explanation sucks. Becasue it is in contradiction with Jessie, Ron Taylor's mechs, and Shepard's first line upon awakening from the Lazarus project. It also contradicts the basics of military science that says that unlimited ammo is better than limited ammo.

The real explanation is this: IT IS A RETCON. In unmodded ME2 world weapons always worked on thermal clips.

I'll actually thumb one up on this - at the end of the day, it's pretty obvious this change was introduced from the approach of better game mechanics and actually make heat a factor - something that ME1 rather negated towards the end.

The brief description in the Codex is basically just a quick bone saying "yeah, we changed to this system" without really going into depth with it for the people who read the codex in-depth, and the rest of the game pretty much assumes the clips were always there.

As for why you can't just leave it in, you could probably wing an explanation how they're chemical in nature to be able to sink so much burst heat, and therefore they can't regenerate because the chemical process is spent, or some such.

I find it idly silly how people call it a plot hole, though - weapon functionality is a fun world fact, not a plot point. Inconsistency and retcon I can buy, but plot hole would imply that the weapon system was a major plot element in either game, where it never struck me as more than just minor embellishments that didn't really even have to be explained.

[Stazro]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

The codex and the manual explanation sucks. Becasue it is in contradiction with Jessie, Ron Taylor's mechs, and Shepard's first line upon awakening from the Lazarus project. It also contradicts the basics of military science that says that unlimited ammo is better than limited ammo.

The real explanation is this: IT IS A RETCON. In unmodded ME2 world weapons always worked on thermal clips.

I'm actually surprised you have no explanation of some higher complexity. You usually have one for everything.

[Darth_Ultima]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I created a long post to address the different points people have. Sure you may not like it, but that doesn't mean the reasons for it being there are weak. Christina herself said it was a welcome change to testers who hated the fact enemies in the first game were glorified bullet sponges who spammed Immunity as the only means to counter Shepard's trigger finger.

It is totally weak.  That could have fixed that with better AI because all the enemies in ME1 did was run around screaming "Enemies everywhere!"  They are still bullet sponges they just shoot more often and don't say, "Enemies everywhere!" anymore.  Why don't they have special abilities like concussion shoot or bioticly lifting your cover away from you.   The whole point it I STILL HATE COLLECTING AMMO.  I never realized how much I hated collecting ammo until ME1 freed me of doing it which was on of the things that made Mass Effect unique.  And then they had to go back to forcing me to collect ammo dang it.  It was an uprupt and unnatural change to the Mass Effect flavor and ruined its uniqueness.  I don't like it and I never will.  If they went back to having having a heat guage I would be elated.

Modifié par Darth_Ultima, 10 décembre 2010 - 07:35 .

[Praetor Knight]

Darth_Ultima wrote...

It is weak.  That could have been fixed that with better AI because all the enemies in ME1 did was run around screaming "Enemies everywhere!"  They are still bullet sponges they just shoot more often and don't say, "Enemies everywhere!" anymore.  Why don't they have special abilities like concussion shoot.  Or bioticly lifting your cover away from you.   The whole point it I STILL HATE COLLECTING AMMO.  I never realized how much I hated collecting ammo until ME1 freed me of doing it.  And then they had to go back to forcing me to collect ammo dang it.  I don't want to have to do it.

Well then I also offer that enemy vanguard use biotic charge the way Shep does, not Vasir. That would be wicked.
and why not have Tungsten penetrate cover?



Seriously now, and to the OP:

The change was that Thermal Clips are ejectable after contact with Geth, so instead of trying to actively cool the weapon's heat sink, they replace the hot thermal clip with a cool one.

And there are omnitools available to speed up the transition. so meh.

[Killjoy Cutter]

@ anyone wanting to come here and start another thread about the heat sinks:

WE KNOW !!

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 10 décembre 2010 - 08:23 .