145 réponses à ce sujet

[Ship.wreck_]

Sable Phoenix wrote...

True, but the thermal clips would have remained just as unnecessary a change in that situation.

True but that is the basis of all technological advancement. We don't need to be playing video games and communicating via internet right now, it's not necessary. We could be just as alive (arguably more so) if we were cave men right now. But we improve technology anyway to make things slightly better one step at a time even though we don't absolutely need to.

So the thermal clips, if executed properly (which they weren't), would have been a logical technological advancement in the context of the game, alieviating weapons overheating and reducing downtime for an overall improvement in performance with no affect on the abundance of ammo. And there for making life for the typical war fighter that much better, and all while adding a new element to the gameplay. A bypass to the overheating issue that still has to be managed in terms of time to cooldown individual clips, overheat all your clips too quickly and you're stuck operating your gun the old school style while waiting for all the extras to cool down. Or in situations too dire swithching through a succession of mostly overheated clips for a steady stream of short burst of fire, to get out from between that rock and hardplace which will eventually lead to simultaneous totall overheat of all your clips and you'll really be stuck waiting for everything to cool down. But might be worth it if it gets you out alive if only barely. Or if you play your cards right and don't get caught up in dumb situations you have to shoot your way out of, you may never have to deal with overheating in an entire playthrough except to change out a mag occasionally.

People don't seem to realize that if they had done thermal clips right nobody would have to argue between unlimited ammo and a solution to overheating, but could have BOTH. Although not a perfect solution and still one you would have to manage, but still way better than just sitting there waiting like in the old game, and you can keep unlimited ammo!

[Ship.wreck_]

Spartas Husky wrote...
true enough, although for ... gameplay sake, I would have SOME weapons.. hint hint 'WEAPONS' out of many hint hint. That once they use a clip they burn it... maybe like the plasma shotgun, if you fire normally is fine, but if you  charge the thing it burns the sink... or breaks it w/e you want to call it.

I like your idea with the plasma shotgun. Don't have one so don't know what charging is but sounds similar to every other game with "chargeable" weapons and that seems like something that could break a heat sink.

Best of both worlds really. ALthough in reality if I use a magazine I could essentially "keep" the magazine from todays rifles, but most dont go through the trouble of gathering the magazines since they are easily manufactured... unless of course the scenario is high risk and low probability of being supplied in which case you take longer to reload because you keep your spent magazines just in case.

Yeah you clould always scavenge the field for droped mags after the firefight. Unless you had to get out of there now I don't see any reason to leave equipment behind. Although hanging onto a few clips through the fight means you won't be left wanting in the meantime if you run out before it's over. And no one says you have to overheat your clips in the fight either just controll your fire, and only use the clips when you slip up. Also it would be cool if they kept some of the customizability from ME1 so you could manage heat with upgrades as well ie: high capacity thermal clips, bring back frictionless parts, maybe enven the ability to laod multiple clips simultaneously therefore no need to reload till you burn through them all. Possibilities to think about for ME3 if it's not already too late. Which it almost certainly is. I'm still stoked about my idea for an auto target detecting/ ammo programing upgrade that would make it way cooler!

Now in the event of Shep... most likely he will be able to reload or resupply from enemies so no point in keeping ejected heat sinks... although they should become good in a few secs.

Idea:

You use the m8 avenger. 1 sink provides energy absorbtion aka energy for 40 bullets.

If you use controlled pairs or 3 burst mode the cooldown is fast enough to work in between burst so you can basically fire indefinetily with one sink. But if you fire 10 shots in one go, it might fill 1/3 of the way. Which if you wait it can take 2 secs to cool off, not meaning you wont be able to fire, but if you want to go back to 0 heat it takes longer amount of time, the longer the bursts are. But IF YOU burn through all 40 and you dont want to eject the sink, it takes 8 secs instead since you over charged the thing.

But the option is there for you to just burn through, and eject at will, so you basically have a light machine gun type of supressive fire.

It sounds like your saying the gun should work exactly as it did before except with the instant cooldown abilitiy of swithching clips, thats exactly what I'm saying

But like I said before. Even though you said weapons should be able to fire without a sink... that is not right I think since the weapon needs somewhere to store the heat otherwise they start to breakdown, at least that is what I remember from the ME1 codex, the heat from mass accelerators is too big to be vented normally.

So when you are left with ONE sink only. You are not able to eject it

I was thinking they'd keep a built in heat sink in addition to the ejectable, you're thinking just don't eject your last clip when your down to one. Either way has the same effect, when your out of clips or down to one you just fire the gun in "classic" mode. Where you have to manage heat more effectively because no reloads so Yeah. I agree.

[Ship.wreck_]

That's because you're still trying to think logically of it as a thermal clip when it's obviously in function just bullets.



Like I said any attempt to reconcile the official description of the thermal clip with the gameplay of the thermal clip will fail, because the official description is a lie.

[Zurcior]

^^^ It's like talking to a brick wall.

The official discription isn't a lie. It's the official description.



Also, lore-wise, the thermal clip system is superior. Deal with it.

[Vaenier]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

I wasn't so much disappointed when she said "thermal clip" rather when it took me by a great surprise that heat never dissipates now. The "mass effect field" I could swallow... but... now this... "non-dissipating heat"... brain just boils down the toilet.

This is one of those thoughts that always comes up. You want to forget it, but it never happens. And it keeps yapping in your head, until you come and vent it out.

its filled with coolant, as you shoot, coolant evaporates. once its empty, it cant refill. Tada, you now have what is exactly the same thing as a magazine of bullets.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Say what you want about the thermal clips; in terms of game design, they're ammunition. Good or bad, like or dislike, the thermal clips are a way to tack ammunition limits onto a game setting that had specifically done away with ammunition limits.

[BiancoAngelo7]

This again? just modify your coalesced ini file to make it so it reads "infiniteammo=true" under your weapons categories, this will stil force you to reload, but will never take away from your ammo total. This will effectively turn your weapon into a heat based gun, the way it SHOULD HAVE BEEN AND BIOWARE YOU KNOW IT GODDA*IT!



lol

[Gabey5]

read the codex

[Killjoy Cutter]

Most of the people in these discussions have read the codex.



Completely beside the point.

[Ship.wreck_]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

This again? just modify your coalesced ini file to make it so it reads "infiniteammo=true" under your weapons categories, this will stil force you to reload, but will never take away from your ammo total. This will effectively turn your weapon into a heat based gun, the way it SHOULD HAVE BEEN AND BIOWARE YOU KNOW IT GODDA*IT!

lol

Hahahaha! I plan on doing that Bianco it'll work but it still won't shoot like the old guns because you've got a predetermined number of shots to reload.

If it worked right you could burst fire well enough to prevent overheating and never have to reload. Or put the hammer down and overheat relatively quick (but still get off more shots than ME2's magazine capacity), or anywhere inbetween those two extremes. So it will work, but it won't feel right

From what I'm reading since my last post most everybody gets that they lied in the codex to introduce limited ammo while making it seem like they weren't violating the original premise of the Mass Effect universe that there is none.

Those who don't get that, seem to be trying really hard not to, and it's become obvious to me at this point that no matter how many times or how effectively we explain it, they're just going to keep on not getting it by choice. The argument they're giving has boiled down to:
"Well, uh... yeah the thermal clips WORK EXACTLY LIKE BULLETS IN EVERY CONCIEVABLE AND PRACTICAL WAY but, uhhh... they're not bullets, because the codex says so, so there!"

It's a very brocken argument in a very fundamental way, but it denotes a departure from logic vast enough to show us that no amount of explanation is going to get through to them. Basically they like the way the game plays with limited amunition, so they're going to defend the method by which limited ammunition was introduced wether it makes sense or not. You can't argue with someone who's fingers are plugging there's ears as they shout, "Lalalalalala!" Like I said, it's obvious but they're choosing not to admit it, and no matter what we tell them they're just going to keep saying the above in bold, so I propose we cut our loses on these codex zombies and just all agree to dissagree.

EDIT: spelling

Modifié par Ship.wreck , 13 décembre 2010 - 08:57 .

[Ship.wreck_]

Zurcior wrote...

^^^ It's like talking to a brick wall.
The official discription isn't a lie. It's the official description.

Also, lore-wise, the thermal clip system is superior. Deal with it.

I know I said I was cutting my losses on the codex zombies, but damn, turns out I can't help myself... after this I'm cutting my loses.

I assure you, of the two of us, I'm not the brick wall (see my above post)
You're position in this argument is based solely on that you prefer the limited ammo gameplay of ME2 to the original, and has no basis in logic.

The description of the thermal clips states that they help aleviate the overheating issue from game one and makes no reference what-so-ever to the fact that they introduce limited ammo. In the gameplay we find that the overheating mechanic isn't being alieviated by thermal clips but has been removed from the game entirely, and that thermal clips are just limited ammo (as undeniably exemplified by the ammo counter of ME2 which didn't exist in ME). That means the description doesn't accurately describe the actuall feature. Is this innacuracy a mistake? No. The game developers know exactly how the feature works and exactly how the codex describes the feature, and they know that those things don't line up. That means that their description is INTENTIONALLY inacurate. And what's the best word we have in the entire english language to describe something that is innacurate on purpose? That word is: lie. The description is innacurate. The description is innacurate ON PURPOSE. The description is a lie. In fact a text book defiition of the term. 

Weapons today have limited ammunition. ME weapons had unlimited ammunition, THAT WAS AN ADVANCE. ME2 weapons have limited ammunition and as a result, work EXACTLY LIKE THE WEAPONS OF TODAY. It couldn't possibly be any more clearly, the exact opposite of an advance.

But I already know that none of this, no matter how undeniable in a logical sense, will get through to you. You're going to continue defending the style of gameplay you prefer regardless of weather or not it violates the original premises of the ME universe, because you prefer it. I wash my hands of you ostrich. Keep your head burried in the sand.

Modifié par Ship.wreck , 13 décembre 2010 - 09:25 .

[Praetor Knight]

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

This again? just modify your coalesced ini file to make it so it reads "infiniteammo=true" under your weapons categories, this will stil force you to reload, but will never take away from your ammo total.

Can that be done on 360? How does that work with different characters, and I mean Shepards, Soldier, Infiltrator? and with Replay?

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 13 décembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[Ship.wreck_]

I'd like to take this opportunity to re-iterate that I don't actually hate limited ammo as much as it might seem. While I prefer unlimited, what really has been bothering me about this (and I think we all feel the same) is just the way they tried to hoodwink us about.

What bothers me is how blatantly they lied about the whole Thermal Clip feature, and what? Expected us not to notice the ammo counter, WTF? Or did they just expect us to all to blindly stand by whatever the Codex says just because the Codex says it even though it's obviously not the case in the game? Much to my dismay and dissapointment in humanity they were half right on that one

Anyway, it's exceedingly rare that a future based game portrays combat any diffferently at all to contemporary. Usually the "futuristic" and "high tech" elements exist only in that you may not be on Earth and are fighting an alien or other sci fi enemy, but when it comes right down to the mechanics of dispatching your enemies: The weapons while said to be "futuristic" and "high tech" work exactly like the ones you would use in say COD based on todays guns, with no notable difference for all their alleged high techness.

So I was really excited to play ME and find that their guns actuall FEEL as high tech as they're supposed to be! In that they had unlimited ammo.

Even better yet, I've played several games where overheating was portrayed as an issue. It's NEVER portrayed accurately in games and that always has really pissed me off! In that it's a huge pain in the ass and it doesn't even have the decency to make sense while it's being a huge pain in my ass! I could accept the inconvenience if only it made sense! For example "Call of Duty 2: The Big Red One", it's an old assed PS2 WWII game, in which there's a specific mission where your character has to man an M2 .50 caliber machine gun and heat management is portrayed. Now I know from experience in Navy, that it takes at least 2 SOLID MINUTES firing non stop to overheat that gun, and the problem that occurs if you do overheat it is that the gun won't stop firing! It becomes a "run away gun" as a new round is chambered automatically by the blowback from the last shot (you've released the trigger) but the new round gets sooo hot in the chamber that the gunpowder inside combusts spontaneously, firing the gun even though you're not pulling the trigger! So to sum up, overheating is REALLY hard to do, and then you can't stop shooting (you actually have to force jam the gun to stop it, or wait till you run out of ammo). The way this issue was portrayed by that old assed installment of COD was as follows.... some ridiculously low number like 10 or 12 consecutive shots overheats the gun, and the problem according to the game is that the gun somehow magically shuts its self off. THAT COULDN'T BE ANY FURTHER FROM THE REALITY IF THEY WERE TRYING TO SCREW IT UP! So That super duper pissed me off, and there's a list of other games with similarly ridiculous and iritating portrayals of "overheating" that also pissed be off.

But Mass Effect was different. In ME projectiles weren't being fired by heat sensitive explosives, they were being fired by what sounded like fairly complex electronic systems. And we all know that electronics are sensitive to heat (in that it breaks them, unlike the explosives), and its the future so it's easy to believe that the gun can detect it's own heat level and shut it's self off, to avoid permanant heat damage! Plus it still took alot of shots to overheat, a ****load in fact! So for the first time ever in any video game that I've played at least, the issue of overheating BOTH makes sense, AND IS PRACTICAL!

So I was very dissapointed to play ME2 for the first time and find that the one thing ME did different (unlimited ammo) and the one thing ME did right when appearently no one else could (overheating) had both been removed from the game! And now the game play is basically identical to anything else.

But ALLL of that not-withstanding, I could've accepted limited ammo, if they just would've not lied to me about it. If they just said in the booklet / codex, he guys, we decided for our own reasons that we don't want these things in our game anymore, so we took em out. Sorry if you like those things, but we hope you still like the game. I would've respected their honesty and been like, "Well that sucks, but hey whatayagonnado?" But they cause this ****storm of a thread by trying to say all this crap about technological advances and thermal clips and blah blah blah, instead which obviously wasn't the case, so now, I'm double pissed.

[Jamin101]

Gabey5 wrote...

read the codex

quit posting

[Ship.wreck_]

Jamin101 wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

read the codex

quit posting

Hahahahaha!

[Zurcior]

The ammo wasn't unlimited! If you truly believe that Mass Effect ammo was unlimited because of a gameplay mechanic in ME1, then you know nothing about Mass Effect lore when it comes to the weapons.



All guns in Mass Effect have a block of metal that supply a limited amount of ammo. Even in ME1. There is no unlimited ammo in the Mass Effect universe. Do you take everything at face value? The discharging of heatsinks is superior to waiting around for the gun to cool down. Deal with it.

[Ship.wreck_]

Zurcior wrote...

The ammo wasn't unlimited! If you truly believe that Mass Effect ammo was unlimited because of a gameplay mechanic in ME1, then you know nothing about Mass Effect lore when it comes to the weapons.

All guns in Mass Effect have a block of metal that supply a limited amount of ammo. Even in ME1. There is no unlimited ammo in the Mass Effect universe. Do you take everything at face value? The discharging of heatsinks is superior to waiting around for the gun to cool down. Deal with it.

Wow dude you're epic failing at this.

Of course I know that. Now your just agruing semantics, so allow me to correct myself. Ammo so extremely compact in it's block form and so much can be fired from a single block that ammo is VIRTUALLY for all PRACTICAL intents and purposes unlimited. Not technically literally unlimited, wow that's a huge difference dude. VS ammo is as limited as it is today with the "thermal clip" = not an advance.

Way to say "deal with it" how bout you actually address the issues in a logicaly instead? It works better? Oh wait you can't because you're not arguing from a logical standpoint, your just defending whatever you like more wether it makes sense or not.

[SonofMacPhisto]

How many angels fit on a pinhead if they're using thermal clips in their guns?

[Zurcior]

Ship.wreck wrote...

Zurcior wrote...

The ammo wasn't unlimited! If you truly believe that Mass Effect ammo was unlimited because of a gameplay mechanic in ME1, then you know nothing about Mass Effect lore when it comes to the weapons.

All guns in Mass Effect have a block of metal that supply a limited amount of ammo. Even in ME1. There is no unlimited ammo in the Mass Effect universe. Do you take everything at face value? The discharging of heatsinks is superior to waiting around for the gun to cool down. Deal with it.

Wow dude you're epic failing at this.

Of course I know that. Now your just agruing semantics, so allow me to correct myself. Ammo so extremely compact in it's block form and so much can be fired from a single block that ammo is VIRTUALLY for all PRACTICAL intents and purposes unlimited. Not technically literally unlimited, wow that's a huge difference dude. VS ammo is as limited as it is today with the "thermal clip" = not an advance.

Way to say "deal with it" how bout you actually address the issues in a logicaly instead? It works better? Oh wait you can't because you're not arguing from a logical standpoint, your just defending whatever you like more wether it makes sense or not.

 You really shouldn't talk about logic when you clearly don't believe in it.

Reasons why themal clips and heatsinks are superior:
Two soldiers face off on the battlefield. One has the old system. The other, the heatsink system.

1) old system soldier: I'll fire at full auto and overheat for five seconds. Leaving me as a sitting duck.
     heat sink soldier: I'll fire at full auto and pop out my heatsink in under a second and blast this guy away.

2) o.s.s.: I know! I'll fire in short controlled bursts and lessen my chances of overheating my gun!
     h.s.s.: Bah! I'll still fire at full auto and bring down his shields faster. Oh, look! He's dead.

3) o.s.s.: I know! I'll use Sabotage and overheat his gun! *sabotage*
     h.s.s.: Oh, no! What ever shall I do! Oh, right *pops heatsink* I guess I'll use sabotage also. *Sabotage*
     o.s.s.: Crap! My gun is now useless!
     h.s.s.: *blows o.s.s.'s head off* Well, that was easy.

 

 Deal with it.

[Vaenier]

Zurcior wrote...

You really shouldn't talk about logic when you clearly don't believe in it.

Reasons why themal clips and heatsinks are superior:
Two soldiers face off on the battlefield. One has the old system. The other, the heatsink system.

1) old system soldier: I'll fire at full auto and overheat for five seconds. Leaving me as a sitting duck.
     heat sink soldier: I'll fire at full auto and pop out my heatsink in under a second and blast this guy away.

2) o.s.s.: I know! I'll fire in short controlled bursts and lessen my chances of overheating my gun!
     h.s.s.: Bah! I'll still fire at full auto and bring down his shields faster. Oh, look! He's dead.

3) o.s.s.: I know! I'll use Sabotage and overheat his gun! *sabotage*
     h.s.s.: Oh, no! What ever shall I do! Oh, right *pops heatsink* I guess I'll use sabotage also. *Sabotage*
     o.s.s.: Crap! My gun is now useless!
     h.s.s.: *blows o.s.s.'s head off* Well, that was easy.

 Deal with it.

My assault rifle was perfectly accurate, had unlimited range, and could fire in full auto mode indefinitally. I miss my assault rifle...

Also, as you bring up realism to counter my claim, a real rifle would have recoil, causing you to fire in bursts or your shots would go everywhere.

Modifié par Vaenier, 13 décembre 2010 - 11:59 .

[BiancoAngelo7]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

BiancoAngelo7 wrote...

This again? just modify your coalesced ini file to make it so it reads "infiniteammo=true" under your weapons categories, this will stil force you to reload, but will never take away from your ammo total.

Can that be done on 360? How does that work with different characters, and I mean Shepards, Soldier, Infiltrator? and with Replay?

Yeah man, I don't know the exact details but if you look in the "Modding is possible III" thread you should be able to find it pretty easily. Especially if you ask for it. The process is a bit complex initially, but it pays off and is quick to repeat once you get the steps down.

And it affects all your characters, regardless of skills, classes whatever.

Modifié par BiancoAngelo7, 14 décembre 2010 - 12:17 .

[Zurcior]

Vaenier wrote...

My assault rifle was perfectly accurate, had unlimited range, and could fire in full auto mode indefinitally. I miss my assault rifle...

Also, as you bring up realism to counter my claim, a real rifle would have recoil, causing you to fire in bursts or your shots would go everywhere.

 The rifles in ME2 have unlimited range, too. Just because  the red box isn't around you enemy, doesn't mean you can't hit them. I've successfully shot and killed many enemies that didn't have those boxes around them. And are you kidding? Recoil is hardly an issue for me. Especially now that I guns like the Locust. I loves me some Locust.

[Ship.wreck_]

Vaenier wrote...
My assault rifle was perfectly accurate, had unlimited range, and could fire in full auto mode indefinitally. I miss my assault rifle...

Also, as you bring up realism to counter my claim, a real rifle would have recoil, causing you to fire in bursts or your shots would go everywhere.

Wow that was alot of speculated crap on what's his names part wasn't it, I didn't bother reading it all. Like I said cutting my losses on the Codex zombies.

But dude legit! hahaha! I loved the customizability of ME1 with the interchangeable parts with different effects. I prefer the variety of ME2 in terms of weapons, but I wish they had incorporated a similar parts system like ME as well.

In my old ME I got the Specter AR with Frictionless Parts, an upgraded Heat Sink and Cryo Rounds and it didn't build heat at all, so it could fire indefinently without overheating! That was sick! Unfortunately I couldn't find all that until after the game ended so there wasn't much left to shoot anyway

[Vaenier]

Ship.wreck wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
My assault rifle was perfectly accurate, had unlimited range, and could fire in full auto mode indefinitally. I miss my assault rifle...

Also, as you bring up realism to counter my claim, a real rifle would have recoil, causing you to fire in bursts or your shots would go everywhere.

Wow that was alot of speculated crap on what's his names part wasn't it, I didn't bother reading it all. Like I said cutting my losses on the Codex zombies.

But dude legit! hahaha! I loved the customizability of ME1 with the interchangeable parts with different effects. I prefer the variety of ME2 in terms of weapons, but I wish they had incorporated a similar parts system like ME as well.

In my old ME I got the Specter AR with Frictionless Parts, an upgraded Heat Sink and Cryo Rounds and it didn't build heat at all, so it could fire indefinently without overheating! That was sick! Unfortunately I couldn't find all that until after the game ended so there wasn't much left to shoot anyway

import the same shep and do it all over again

Its almost like cheating...