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[PrinceLionheart]

Someone With Mass wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...
How is it weak? Please actually come up with something to back up your statements.

What about the VS makes them incapable of taking up the mantle of the next human spectre? What is 'demanded' of Spectres that VS can't meet?

Oh, I'm sorry. Did they evolve from normal soldiers to Spectre material because of something they did during those two years that's on the same level as Shepard's years of experience and service? 

I must've missed that.

“Spectres are not trained, but chosen. Individuals forged in the fire of service and battle—those whose actions elevate them above the rank and file.”

And how do you know they weren't previously considered potential candidates? 

True, Shepard was the first official Human Spectre, but he was just as much a test case to see if humanity was ready to assume the role.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 21 avril 2011 - 10:37 .

[Siansonea]

E-Type XR wrote...

I think the point people are trying to make is that it took Humanity 30 years, an one of a kind individual, and a damn-lucky coincidence (Saren's betrayel coinciding with Shepard's Spectre assesment) to get the first Spectre. Suddenly, some previously rank and file alliance soldier becomes a Spectre? Doesn't feel right.

Well, you can kind of get away with calling Ashley a rank-and-file Alliance soldier, but even in her case I don't think that's accurate. She was the sole surviving member of her squad during the geth attack on Eden Prime, and her association with Shepard and the events leading up to and during the geth attack on the Citadel clinch her status as "above the ordinary".

And naturally Kaidan benefits a lot from the events of ME1 also, and in addition Kaidan is an officer AND a biotic, probably not the most commonplace combination in the Alliance military, at least at Kaidan's experience level. So even if you can get away with referring to Ashley as rank-and-file, Kaidan is anything but.

I wonder if any of the VS haters would be so upset if Joker was made a Spectre? <_<

[Babli]

VS - spectre.
It makes sense. Especially when considering that Shepard died. That is a fact, one can simply forget since ME 2 portrayed that very poorly and after prologue you could almost forget that 2 years has passed and Shepard was dead for that time.

So after his death, death of first human spectre, humanity was once again without their human in spectre position. And THAT is an OUTRAGE!

Humans are in Council since then and if they didnt have someone as a spectre as only council species, it would make them look bad/lame.  So there was a time for a new candidate. Who?

(Wo)man, who fought alongside first human spectre and helped him/her to defeat Sovereign, mighty Geth flagship and its fleet seems to be the best candidate for that role. 

[Tamahome560]

E-Type XR wrote...

Tamahome560 wrote...

E-Type XR wrote...

I think the point people are trying to make is that it took Humanity 30 years, an one of a kind individual, and a damn-lucky coincidence (Saren's betrayel coinciding with Shepard's Spectre assesment) to get the first Spectre. Suddenly, some previously rank and file alliance soldier becomes a Spectre? Doesn't feel right.

Why? They had 2 years+ to improve. And the first Spectre was obviously the beginning and now that humans have their seat on the Council and their first human Spectre they can now nominate much more candidates and they don't have to be as amazing as Shepard. If Shepard or Saren were considered a standard for Spectre recruitment then their ranks would become really small.

That's the point, do they have to be that Elite. We only know of 4 Spectres from the games (don't know about the books), but I'm guessing there can't be more than 10 or 20

I'm not saying that they don't have to be ''Elite''. We don't know what they have achieved during last 2 years apart from a promotion but hell if Alliance sends them on solo missions into the Terminus systems they must hold them in high regard. While we don't know their exact number Alliance estimates have put their numbers to just under a 100. What I'm saying is that there is a range within ''Elite'' where Shep might be at the very top and the VS might be at the very bottom but still considered ''Elite''.

[Siansonea]

Someone With Mass wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...
How is it weak? Please actually come up with something to back up your statements.

What about the VS makes them incapable of taking up the mantle of the next human spectre? What is 'demanded' of Spectres that VS can't meet?

Oh, I'm sorry. Did they evolve from normal soldiers to Spectre material because of something they did during those two years that's on the same level as Shepard's years of experience and service? 

I must've missed that.

“Spectres are not trained, but chosen. Individuals forged in the fire of service and battle—those whose actions elevate them above the rank and file.”

I don't recall Kaidan and Ashley sitting back eating Doritos while the fight against the geth and Reapers was going on. I'd say they've both handled themselves quite well, and who knows what they went through after Shepard died/came back. All we've seen of them since the attack on the Citadel is a few moments on Horizon, and much of the fail of that reunion can be traced back to Shepard. Honestly, I don't get where the hate for the VS comes from, but I have my suspicions...

[MortalEngines]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Oh, I'm sorry. Did they evolve from normal soldiers to Spectre material because of something they did during those two years that's on the same level as Shepard's years of experience and service?

Please specify Shepard's 'years of experience and service'. VS has not only been through all the events of ME1 with Shepard (which should add to their 'experience and service') but has been doing covert-ops missions since then. I'm pretty sure that they've gained the years of experience and service.

Not to mention what they had achieved before Shepard. Lets look at Ashley (from the wiki):

During training, Chief Williams is certified proficient with the standard-issue M7 Lancer assault rifle and light or standard weight combat hardsuits. She also completed certification in zero-gravity combat aboard the Rakesh Sharma Orbital Platform in Earth geosynchronous orbit. For the Hostile Environment Assault Training, she was assigned to Fort Charles Upham on Saturn's moon, Titan. She was awarded a commendation for her bold assault technique in a field exercise simulating an attack on turian point defense emplacements. Drill Instructor Gunnery Chief Ellison noted her steadfast endurance and aggressive instincts, and promoted her to the role of squad leader, and subsequently, as platoon guide after observing her effective tutelage of the less skilled members of her training unit. Her platoon has logged unanimous positive feedback on her leadership in the recent fitness review cycle. Private Nirali Bhatia praised her focus on team-building exercises and "tough but fair" discipline.

This of course is also taking into account the fact her family is blacklisted and it's EXTREMELY hard for her to be promoted. Looks to me that's she's done pretty well. And then she gets promoted in ME2. Kaidan is even higher ranked and skilled. So don't treat them like they're just lowly privates.

Someone With Mass wrote...
“Spectres are not trained, but chosen. Individuals forged in the fire of service and battle—those whose actions elevate them above the rank and file.”

So the actions they did in ME1 do not 'elevate them above rank and file'? Fighting alongside a Spectre through several life and death situations against the Geth added nothing to their experience? Please. Fighting on Ilos, Virmire and the Citadel seems like alot of experience to me. 

E-Type XR wrote...

I think the point people are trying to make is that it took Humanity 30 years, an one of a kind individual, and a damn-lucky coincidence (Saren's betrayel coinciding with Shepard's Spectre assesment) to get the first Spectre. Suddenly, some previously rank and file alliance soldier becomes a Spectre? Doesn't feel right.

Understandable. However, the reason it was so difficult to get a human spectre was because humanity was the 'new' kid and with the Turians on the council it was pretty much impossible for them to get on. You mentioned it took alot of 'coincidence' for Shepard to be spectre, but you forget the reason it took so much luck is because Humanity was not trusted by the council. Once the council accepted Humanity into their ranks, it was no longer a matter of luck and it became much easier for a human to become Spectre.

EDIT:
Everyone above has summed it up better than I could 

Modifié par MortalEngines, 21 avril 2011 - 10:44 .

[Siansonea]

Babli wrote...

VS - spectre.
It makes sense. Especially when considering that Shepard died. That is a fact, one can simply forget since ME 2 portrayed that very poorly and after prologue you could almost forget that 2 years has passed and Shepard was dead for that time.

So after his death, death of first human spectre, humanity was once again without their human in spectre position. And THAT is an OUTRAGE!

Humans are in Council since then and if they didnt have someone as a spectre as only council species, it would make them look bad/lame.  So there was a time for a new candidate. Who?

(Wo)man, who fought alongside first human spectre and helped him/her to defeat Sovereign, mighty Geth flagship and its fleet seems to be the best candidate for that role. 

Not to mention, both Ash and Kaidan would look mighty fine on a recruitment poster.

[Someone With Mass]

PrinceLionheart wrote...
And how do you know they weren't previously considered potential candidates? 

True, Shepard was the first official Human Spectre, but he was just as much a test case to see if humanity was ready to assume the role.

I think something of that level of significance would've been mentioned at least once, don't you?

[Someone With Mass]

Okay, then we can might as well nominate any other soldier that fought at the battle of the Citadel, because that'd be just as fair.

[Almostfaceman]

Are you really arguing about the VS being a Spectre? I mean... really? Look, Shep was/is a Spectre because Bioware said he was, and now the VS is one, because Bioware says they are. 'nuff said.

[Someone With Mass]

MortalEngines wrote...

Please specify Shepard's 'years of experience and service'. VS has not only been through all the events of ME1 with Shepard (which should add to their 'experience and service') but has been doing covert-ops missions since then. I'm pretty sure that they've gained the years of experience and service.

Look up N7. Elite soldier program. Shepard graduated from that with the highest level. 

And each of the psychological profiles speaks for themselves.

[Tamahome560]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, then we can might as well nominate any other soldier that fought at the battle of the Citadel, because that'd be just as fair.

This is like saying: Hey let's nominate anyone who fought in Skylian Blitz. VS was a part of the team that was crucial in wining the battle. VS and other team members have shown actions that elevate them above rank and file by following and helping Shepard.

[Razagon]

After reading PSM3 I see that actually every single female LI except Miranda has been confirmed to be in ME3.

[MortalEngines]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Okay, then we can might as well nominate any other soldier that fought at the battle of the Citadel, because that'd be just as fair.

Did they also fight on Ilos and Virmire? And all the other locations that Shepard and co fought on in ME1? Seriously, I would like you to mention someone who has better potential to be the next Human Spectre? Humanity/the Alliance obviously need one (or all their hardwork would be for nothing), seeing as Shepard is basically rogue. 

Someone With Mass wrote...

Look up N7. Elite soldier program. Shepard graduated from that with the highest level. 

And each of the psychological profiles speaks for themselves.

Did you know both Ashley and Shepard both had the same drill sergeant? Many speculate that they were both trained in the same basics but Shepard got elected to N7 (and Ashely did not because of her family past).

Also don't assume the best always come from the best training backgrounds. Not all of the greatest minds today went to Yale or Cambridge you know.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 21 avril 2011 - 10:55 .

[Siansonea]

Someone With Mass wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...

Please specify Shepard's 'years of experience and service'. VS has not only been through all the events of ME1 with Shepard (which should add to their 'experience and service') but has been doing covert-ops missions since then. I'm pretty sure that they've gained the years of experience and service.

Look up N7. Elite soldier program. Shepard graduated from that with the highest level. 

And each of the psychological profiles speaks for themselves.

For all we know, Ash and Kaidan are N7-certified by the time ME3 starts. But whatever, I suspect this has less to do with the VS than it does with the fact that it's Not About Tali™.<_<

[Someone With Mass]

MortalEngines wrote...
Did you know both Ashley and Shepard both had the same drill sergeant? Many speculate that they were both trained in the same basics but Shepard got elected to N7 (and Ashely did not because of her family past).

Also don't assume the best always come from the best training backgrounds. Not all of the greatest minds today went to Yale or Cambridge you know.

Okay, and what exactly says that she's good enough to be a Spectre, then?
I can see how Kaidan can be one, but Ashley? The woman who compared aliens to dogs? That's who you want to be a Spectre and the represant of the Council?

[Someone With Mass]

Siansonea II wrote...
For all we know, Ash and Kaidan are N7-certified by the time ME3 starts. But whatever, I suspect this has less to do with the VS than it does with the fact that it's Not About Tali™.<_<

Oh, yeah. Of course. Because you know me and who I am as a person, don't you?

[ADLegend21]

Ashley and Kaidan have impecable service records. They serve dunder the first human spectre, reppeled a Geth invasion, saved a human colony, fought Rachni and husks, countless bands of pirates and merc, stopped a drug ring, diabled a nuke in a mine shaft, blew up a Krogan breeding and indoctrination facility, found a world thought to ahve bene lost for 50,000 years, interacted witha prothean beacon, spoke to a Reapers Found a strande dship, attempted to rescue an allaince admiral, shut down some Cerberus Military operations, found valuable data on the geth, fought in a prothean ruin and anything else you could do in ME1. It doesn't get more qualified than that! I always say that since Spectre's are scouted by other spectre's shepard can always recommend Ashley and Kaidan herself and vouche for them like Nihlus was going to for Shepard. Plus with Shepard dead they're the most noteworthy Alliance soldier they have.

[ADLegend21]

Someone With Mass wrote...

MortalEngines wrote...
Did you know both Ashley and Shepard both had the same drill sergeant? Many speculate that they were both trained in the same basics but Shepard got elected to N7 (and Ashely did not because of her family past).

Also don't assume the best always come from the best training backgrounds. Not all of the greatest minds today went to Yale or Cambridge you know.

Okay, and what exactly says that she's good enough to be a Spectre, then?
I can see how Kaidan can be one, but Ashley? The woman who compared aliens  humanity to dogs? That's who you want to be a Spectre and the represant of the Council?

Fixed it for you and YES that's who we want.

[E-Type XR]

In the end, let's just agree to disagree. I don't feel that the VS should be a Spectre, but clearly a large majority does. Anyway, lets hope that the story behind them becoming a Spectre is well explained, then I'll be satisfied.

[MortalEngines]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Okay, and what exactly says that she's good enough to be a Spectre, then?

All the work VS did with Shepard speaks more than enough for why she's good enough. Just like the poster above has just listed out. 

I can see how Kaidan can be one, but Ashley? The woman who compared aliens to dogs? That's who you want to be a Spectre and the represant of the Council?

Isn't that being a bit judgemental? Some people's renegrade Shepards can be ALOT worse than Ashely will ever be/act. Also her opinions can change if you actually get to know her character, which you evidently haven't. Wasn't it you that said it was 'experience' that mattered, why even bring her personality into it?

michaelrsa wrote...

It's possible that Kaidan might have been an N7, but rather unlikely.

For Ash it's nearly impossible. They wouldn't have given a whole lot of crap assignments to an N7; it would be a waste of resources.

No one (at least not me) thinks that Ash or even Kaidan were N7, its obvious that Ashley was given a whole lot of 'crap' assignments because of her family background, she'd never be an N7, I'll never dispute that. Kaidan might of been but I doubt it as he hasn't got N7 armour.

Modifié par MortalEngines, 21 avril 2011 - 11:19 .

[Someone With Mass]

E-Type XR wrote...

In the end, let's just agree to disagree. I don't feel that the VS should be a Spectre, but clearly a large majority does. Anyway, lets hope that the story behind them becoming a Spectre is well explained, then I'll be satisfied.

That.

And if not, I'll let them know they'll never be as good as Commander Shepard.