1309 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Addai67 wrote...

I was responding to the claim that it's not fanservice.  But maybe I don't know what that term means (possible).

I hope I'm not coming off as antagonistic. I enjoy talking to you, but dislike that we only seem to do so when we're at loggerheads.

To me, fan service is an element in a work meant specifically meant to arouse or titillate. Is Isabela's body, especially her breasts and open to the public shirt, fan service? Yes, I totally agree.

Does this serve the character? In my mind, it does. Isabela is meant to come off as sexy and, well, easy. It's both her role in the story and part of her personality. She *ought* to arouse and titillate*.

I don't think all women in the game should look like this. I don't get the large breasts on Bethany. I would like Avaline to look tall and muscular, which usually means having average to small breasts. I don't want my PC to look like that.

Isabela though? To me, it fits.

It's important to understand that I see no inherent virtue in realism. None. Not in general fiction and not in fantasy. The way I come at world and person design is thematic first and foremost.

*To the extent that any fictional character does.

[TeaCokeProphet]

Pseudocognition wrote...
Not going to argue with the facts of how most people percieve large breasts, but I still find it really weird that breast size, a function of genetics, is something society attaches meaning to.

Anything one considers physically attractive is a function of genetics as well, and there is great meaning attached to beauty. Men also attach a lot of meaning to the size of their own privates, despite my discussions with women who simply prefer it to not be a needle.

[Addai]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I was responding to the claim that it's not fanservice.  But maybe I don't know what that term means (possible).

I hope I'm not coming off as antagonistic. I enjoy talking to you, but dislike that we only seem to do so when we're at loggerheads.

I hadn't noticed, but thank you.  Not antagonistic, no.

To me, fan service is an element in a work meant specifically meant to arouse or titillate. Is Isabela's body, especially her breasts and open to the public shirt, fan service? Yes, I totally agree.

Does this serve the character? In my mind, it does. Isabela is meant to come off as sexy and, well, easy. It's both her role in the story and part of her personality. She *ought* to arouse and titillate*.

I see what you're saying.  I suppose I think a female can do this without looking unrealistic.  Which brings us to...

It's important to understand that I see no inherent virtue in realism. None. Not in general fiction and not in fantasy. The way I come at world and person design is thematic first and foremost.

Realism is a value for me.  Somehow the idea that DA2 is supposed to be both darker and grittier AND have these laughable over-the-top elements is contradictory in my mind.  When I think dark and gritty, I think more realism, not less.

[Maria Caliban]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
Isabela's clothing and large chest are obviously meant to show that she's sexy and available.*

Not going to argue with the facts of how most people percieve large breasts, but I still find it really weird that breast size, a function of genetics, is something society attaches meaning to.

Indeed, that's a discussion in its own right.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

TeaCokeProphet wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...
Not going to argue with the facts of how most people percieve large breasts, but I still find it really weird that breast size, a function of genetics, is something society attaches meaning to.

Anything one considers physically attractive is a function of genetics as well, and there is great meaning attached to beauty. Men also attach a lot of meaning to the size of their own privates, despite my discussions with women who simply prefer it to not be a needle.

You make several good points, but my annoyance is over the idea that breasts imply or mean something about a woman's sexuality. I guess I wasn't clear. Finding large breasts sexually attractive is a matter of personal preference, using large breasts as shorthand to imply a sexual character or worse yet making assumptions about a woman's sexuality based on her breast size... I frown at the latter, especially.


Wasn't this thread about outfits? 

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[TeaCokeProphet]

BrotherWarth wrote...
Fact-women who say they don't care how well hung a guy are liars.

I think I worded it wrongly then. People do have tolerance ranges for things even like these, though that's a discussion for a different place.

Isabela's (one l, then) knockers are too big.

To above,
Oh. Damn text based conversations. I agree and I find it ridiculous that her breasts' size supposedly implies something about her sexuality. There are better ways to put something like that across, but I'll admit that the way she dresses certainly gets that across well enough.

Modifié par TeaCokeProphet, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:29 .

[upsettingshorts]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Wasn't this thread about outfits? 

Fixed outfits leads to outfits informing on characters leads to Isabela and Bethany leads to "so, why are they so overtly hot and wearing revealing clothes?"

Why doesn't Varric button his shirt?  Is his chesthair and strong jaw - although I notice this more in concept art than the screenshots - meant to compensate for his short stature and make him appear more typically masculine?  Just ad libbing that one, but it seems somewhat consistent with that same premise.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:26 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Why doesn't Varric button his shirt?  Is his chesthair and strong jaw meant to compensate for his short stature and make him appear more typically masculine?  Just ad libbing that one, but it seems somewhat consistent with that same premise.  

He's just about as appropriately dressed for battle as Isabela is. I approve.

[Addai]

BrotherWarth wrote...

TeaCokeProphet wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...
Not going to argue with the facts of how most people percieve large breasts, but I still find it really weird that breast size, a function of genetics, is something society attaches meaning to.

Anything one considers physically attractive is a function of genetics as well, and there is great meaning attached to beauty. Men also attach a lot of meaning to the size of their own privates, despite my discussions with women who simply prefer it to not be a needle.

Fact-women who say they don't care how well hung a guy are liars.

I.... no comment.  My husband posts here.  LOL

Even if sex and violence makes the world go around, it still makes me squick to see it used in a blatant, over-the-top fashion for marketing purposes.  Like the super secret game reveal this week that's being marketed on a "leaked" shot of a woman and child in rifle crosshairs.  That kind of crap makes me think someone upstairs at EA called down and said "yo, we need melons, make it so."

Modifié par Addai67, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:36 .

[Sharn01]

You know its actually odd that they use large breats at all to indicate sexuality, unless its because they feel they cant make the rest of the character model look good so they give them giant breasts for people to focus on.

I say this because in my personal experiance breast worship is not very common, as an example, amongst my inner circle of friends that are male, 18 people if I include myself, only two are breat obsessive, one finds breasts to be the most important feature on a woman above everything else, the other is so breast obsessed that large breasts can override any other flaw the woman may have no matter how bad it is, of course his definition of large is strange since I have seen him describe women with c-cups as pieces of plywood. 

The point is, I think breast obsessed men are a minority, just a very vocal minority that makes sure everyone else in the world knows what they like , but I am not sure why games are catering to this type of person.  That or the people I know just universally have better taste on average then the rest of the world.

[Maria Caliban]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Fact-women who say they don't care how well hung a guy are liars.

I don't care how well a guy is hung.

[AlanC9]

BrotherWarth wrote...

My concern with this sort of design is that it tells me the developers think I'm stupid. Dialogue and actions can tell you everything you need to know about a character, so the developers saying that we need their outfits to express their personality is like saying we can't understand these characters without visual cues.

Being able to do something without visual cues doesn't mean that you should do it without visual cues. Why eliminate that much bandwidth?

[Maria Caliban]

Pseudocognition wrote...

You make several good points, but my annoyance is over the idea that breasts imply or mean something about a woman's sexuality. I guess I wasn't clear. Finding large breasts sexually attractive is a matter of personal preference, using large breasts as shorthand to imply a sexual character or worse yet making assumptions about a woman's sexuality based on her breast size... I frown at the latter, especially.


Wasn't this thread about outfits? 

I will point out that I said "her clothing and large breasts are meant to make her seem sexy and available."

When I said sexy, I was referring to her figure. When I said available, I was referring to her manner of dress.

Of course, society does tend to see large breasted women as more promiscuous and less intelligent, and assuming that a woman who shows a great deal of skin is signaling availability or receptiveness is also problematic.

[Sharn01]

If I am remembering her right she has never cared about guys in general. Think she even said the same things back on the NWN forums.

[Xewaka]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

I can count the number of unique outfits in DA:O on one hand. That was some super awesome customisation!

*downs a shot*

That's a scary hand.  Off the top of my head I can recall:

Leather Armor Appearance
Studded Leather Armor Appearance
Duster Leather Armor Appearance
Dalish Leather Armor Appearance
feathered shoulder mage robe
standard mage robe
Chasind Mage robe
splint armor appearance
chain armor appearance
dwarven armor appearance
heavy chain armor appearance
full plate armor appearance
ceremonial full plate armor appearance (the one with the bas-relief dragon head)
templar armor appearance (armor skirt)
Legion of the Dead Armor


Although, um, I really think that's about it.

Added four you missed, plus there's certainly more. I believe the Colossus armor is an exclusive look set, and dwarven medium (Legionnaire Scout, Sigrun's attire) and heavy armor look different.

[Maria Caliban]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Because it implies laziness of writing.That may not be a case, but it usually is. When games focus so much on the visuals the writing is almost always what's left behind.

David, Mary, and Sheryl, who did much of the writing for DA:O, did the writing for DA 2, plus Luke, who did writing for BG 2 and Jade Empire.

I know two of the writers have said that they think the companions in DA 2 are some of the best in any BioWare game.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I will point out that I said "her clothing and large breasts are meant to make her seem sexy and available."

When I said sexy, I was referring to her figure. When I said available, I was referring to her manner of dress.

Of course, society does tend to see large breasted women as more promiscuous and less intelligent, and assuming that a woman who shows a great deal of skin is signaling availability or receptiveness is also problematic.

I understand what you meant, no criticism intended towards you. I leapt from your mention of breasts to the general attitude you mention in your last point, then facepalmed at the general attitude.

[upsettingshorts]

*attempts to tackle the "breasts as shorthand" issue objectively, will likely fail*

Maybe it's used in that way because it's easier to pull off in a limited medium. If we're going with the hypothesis that in gaming, big boobs in a revealing outfit is an indicator of availability, then we have to think about other non-verbal cues could accomplish the same purpose. If developers figured non-verbal cues weren't necessary, why bother in the first place. In real life, body language ranging from anything as simple from a look to a touch can send signals (interpreted correctly or not) but games are either incapable or unwilling to go so far as to attempt to simulate what amounts to essentially unconscious human thoughts reactions. Touching hair, mimicking posture, hell even blushing - all possible visual cues which demand subtlety to even approach believability.

So we go to boobs and cleavage. If the message is, and the message does appear to be "sex!" then displaying exaggerated secondary sex characteristics in such a way that draws attention to their presence (like, I don't know, a chainmail apron thing) sends that message in a rather deliberate and blunt way, but the message is getting across. Hence the shorthand. Is that the only way to do it? No, no it really isn't. But it does strike me as one of the simpler ways to do it.

The interesting part, and the question my post doesn't even touch on - isn't "why are breasts used as coding for a sexual character" but "is this concept only applied to female characters?" I mean, is the fact Thane and Varric both have their shirts slightly unbuttoned serving the same purpose (I'd say it's a coincidence)? Did Jacob's design appeal to anyone, or more importantly, was it deliberate in the same way Miranda's was (I'd say yes)?

*loses his train of thought completely, should probably have written an outline*

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:52 .

[The Big Nothing]

Maria Caliban wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote...

Fact-women who say they don't care how well hung a guy are liars.

I don't care how well a guy is hung.

Sounds like we're a good match, then.

[Maria Caliban]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Why wouldn't they say that?

If it wasn't true.

Honestly, when a group of professional writers who are known for creating excellent characters* tell me that the companions in Dragon Age 2 are awesome, I tend to believe them.

Remember that unlike Stan or Chris, coming here and talking to the forum isn't part of the writer's jobs. If anything, it occasionally gets them in trouble. (See: Mary accidentally confirming Varric's VA)

Now, perhaps they're a bit too close to the characters to see them, but I think you're being unnecessarily cynical here. The art department isn't the writing department. Sheryl did not spend time she could have used fleshing out Isabela with story and dialogue designing her outfit.

BrotherWarth wrote...

And either way, less time was spent writing DA2 than was spent writing Origins. That doesn't mean that the DA2 characters are worse than the Origins characters, but it makes it more likely.

It's a shorter game, so we'll probably spend less time with them. I agree with this. I don't think that means the characters are inherently worse, however, or that the writing isn't up to Origin's standards.

*This assumes that you think the previous character were excellent.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 11 décembre 2010 - 08:59 .

[upsettingshorts]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't care how well a guy is hung.

Sounds like we're a good match, then.

I was going to make a "suddenly your username makes sense" joke, but then I realized  that the implications of my username being assigned to the present topic would be hilariously... upsetting.