1309 réponses à ce sujet

[SirGladiator]

It's amazing that there are some people who seemingly will agree with any decision that somebody who happens to work at Bioware makes, regardless of how obviously wrong it is. Taking away the ability to change a companion's outfit is completely insane, it's making the game more like ME strictly for its own sake. It doesnt "add character" to the characters in any way. To believe that, you have to believe that somehow all the DAO characters were worse because you could change their outfits. Oh, you mean Leliana doesn't wear that Chantry outfit anymore? Well then she has no character. You changed Morrigan's initial outfit? There went her character! Allistair without heavy armor? Zero character, why is he even on the team? Its beyond absurd, and I can't imagine anybody seriously believing something crazy like that.



On a similar note, all the arguing about what type of clothing looks best on which character, all of it should be pointless, because you 'should' be able to decide that for yourself rather than have it imposed upon you, that's the point after all, playing the game your own way, not somebody else's. It really shouldn't matter at all whether somebody else thinks Isabella's outfit is too revealing, not revealing enough, or what areas of the game it is or isn't ideal for wearing in, because you should be able to change it to an outfit you like better anytime you feel like it. Thats what basic options like that are for, I know that because I played DAO and I still remember how to do that .



The bottom line is this is a REALLY basic and simple option, one that already existed in the original so its not like anybody was asking them to add anything to the game. Taking it away does nothing but take away a LOT of the fun, as it is very fun and cool to change the characters outfits whenever you feel like it. I like the idea of making the game more like ME when they're adding a fun and cool option from ME, but not when they're simply taking away a fun and cool option from DA. This is a horrible decision, and quite frankly it's so crazy it never should've even been seriously considered, much less actually implemented.

[Snoteye]

SirGladiator wrote...

Taking away the ability to change a companion's outfit is completely insane, it's making the game more like ME strictly for its own sake. It doesnt "add character" to the characters in any way.

Every morning my mother lays out clothes for me to wear. This is because picking clothes myself means I have to get up earlier and doesn't say anything about me anyway.

This is a work of fiction. Names, characters, places, and incidents either are products of the author’s imagination or are used fictitiously. Any resemblance to actual events, locales, or persons, living or dead, is entirely coincidental.

[KLUME777]

SirGladiator wrote...

It's amazing that there are some people who seemingly will agree with any decision that somebody who happens to work at Bioware makes, regardless of how obviously wrong it is. Taking away the ability to change a companion's outfit is completely insane, it's making the game more like ME strictly for its own sake. It doesnt "add character" to the characters in any way. To believe that, you have to believe that somehow all the DAO characters were worse because you could change their outfits. Oh, you mean Leliana doesn't wear that Chantry outfit anymore? Well then she has no character. You changed Morrigan's initial outfit? There went her character! Allistair without heavy armor? Zero character, why is he even on the team? Its beyond absurd, and I can't imagine anybody seriously believing something crazy like that.

On a similar note, all the arguing about what type of clothing looks best on which character, all of it should be pointless, because you 'should' be able to decide that for yourself rather than have it imposed upon you, that's the point after all, playing the game your own way, not somebody else's. It really shouldn't matter at all whether somebody else thinks Isabella's outfit is too revealing, not revealing enough, or what areas of the game it is or isn't ideal for wearing in, because you should be able to change it to an outfit you like better anytime you feel like it. Thats what basic options like that are for, I know that because I played DAO and I still remember how to do that .

The bottom line is this is a REALLY basic and simple option, one that already existed in the original so its not like anybody was asking them to add anything to the game. Taking it away does nothing but take away a LOT of the fun, as it is very fun and cool to change the characters outfits whenever you feel like it. I like the idea of making the game more like ME when they're adding a fun and cool option from ME, but not when they're simply taking away a fun and cool option from DA. This is a horrible decision, and quite frankly it's so crazy it never should've even been seriously considered, much less actually implemented.

Totally agree.

Thank You for expressing what i had in my mind with your words.

[Adhin]

I like the single outfit idea as I've stated before, as for any direct comparison to ME2 I think doesn't work to well. ME2 the 'look' contributed to the character but the way they handled the 'single outfit' and 'no inventory' ultimately detracted from the game as a whole (not the story aspect and thus, the characters). DA2 seems to be rectifying this error by having there outfits actually have states, you can buy upgrades, get sockets added, even buy new ones in some cases and depending on how you interrupt it (since I don't think a dev has directly shown up and state it) they're visual outfits will change (we know of at least 1 that does).

Where as in ME2 it didn't do jack squat. Health and Shields where all base-static numbers and everything was just %increase. There 'outfits' didn't do anything or give them any special bonuses, using there alternate 'skin swap' (why did garrus paint his broken outfit...?) didn't do anything either so thats where it failed in the game, not so much character story wise.

As for Isabella not waring much if you want a real world example, besides you know actual fencing and general dueling and all that crap. Often times what a person is comfortable with? Regardless of how realistically practical that may not be is often better then going with what isn't. If she is the most comfortable and at ease in her Pirate outfit then she'll more likely perform in combat better then in armor. Also keep in mind its not a war simulator. And again, shes a pirate. PIRATE. Also, just so I don't feel left out - booobies =D

[KLUME777]

Adhin wrote...

I like the single outfit idea as I've stated before, as for any direct comparison to ME2 I think doesn't work to well. ME2 the 'look' contributed to the character but the way they handled the 'single outfit' and 'no inventory' ultimately detracted from the game as a whole (not the story aspect and thus, the characters). DA2 seems to be rectifying this error by having there outfits actually have states, you can buy upgrades, get sockets added, even buy new ones in some cases and depending on how you interrupt it (since I don't think a dev has directly shown up and state it) they're visual outfits will change (we know of at least 1 that does).
Where as in ME2 it didn't do jack squat. Health and Shields where all base-static numbers and everything was just %increase. There 'outfits' didn't do anything or give them any special bonuses, using there alternate 'skin swap' (why did garrus paint his broken outfit...?) didn't do anything either so thats where it failed in the game, not so much character story wise.
As for Isabella not waring much if you want a real world example, besides you know actual fencing and general dueling and all that crap. Often times what a person is comfortable with? Regardless of how realistically practical that may not be is often better then going with what isn't. If she is the most comfortable and at ease in her Pirate outfit then she'll more likely perform in combat better then in armor. Also keep in mind its not a war simulator. And again, shes a pirate. PIRATE. Also, just so I don't feel left out - booobies =D

Where did it say you could change it visually? Could you give a Link. If i recall, it only upgraded stats.

Even if they do change the visual, i doubt it will be anything other than ME2's skins change. After all, it is changing it visually.

[GodWood]

Aveline in an alternate armor.

[Adhin]

Yup if you listen to the 5th pod cast too the guy says something like you can buy upgrades and sometimes 'even new outfits' I think. I should listen to it again and write it out here. Or someone whos got a google-whatever can copy/paste it from the transcripte. But basically the outfit upgrades over time (he jokes along with that by saying something like its not like they'd ware the same thing for 10 years).

So there should be some actual physical visual changes, along with upgrades. Believe he also implied all the upgrades you buy and whatnot (like special 'padding') and sockets probably are something tied to the characters, not there specific outfits. At least thats how I took what he said.

If that's the case what you buy or what they update to over the course of time probably isn't to huge of an increase past upped AC/DEF and maybe some mild stat increase to compensate for all the other stuff you can do to upgrade there 'outfits'. But then that 1 thing has to make up for 3 items.

Modifié par Adhin, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:40 .

[KLUME777]

Adhin wrote...

Yup if you listen to the 5th pod cast too the guy says something like you can buy upgrades and sometimes 'even new outfits' I think. I should listen to it again and write it out here. Or someone whos got a google-whatever can copy/paste it from the transcripte. But basically the outfit upgrades over time (he jokes along with that by saying something like its not like they'd ware the same thing for 10 years). So there should be some actual physical visual changes, along with upgrades. Believe he also implied all the upgrades you buy and whatnot (like special 'padding') and sockets probably are something tied to the characters, not there specific outfits. at least thats how I took what he said. If that's the case what you buy or what they update to over the course of time probably isn't do huge of an increase paste upped AC/DEF and maybe some mild stat increase to compensate for all the other stuff you can do to upgrade there 'outfits'. But then that 1 thing has to make up for 3 items.

Yeah i saw that podcast, but i racall seeing in a dev post that it was stat changes or something. Or maybe its just reskin. The image above might mean something.

Either way, i would much rather Inventory system than "upgrades".

In ME2, you could upgrade Shepherds armour and i didnt care for it much at all.

[Oloos]

I dont' really understand why the Isabella's outfit bothers you so much...

I mean... She's a pirate right ? When you think "Pirate" did you see people in armors ? No... Most of the time, you see people in simples clothes, most of the time with just pants and a belt for their weapons. While Isabella is a pirate, it seems logical for me that she didn't wear any kind of armor. That's all...

And to be honest, most of the time, people wears armor just for somes occasions. Likes big battles, tournaments or so. For exemple, a medieval knight never wears is armor every time and every day. No. Most of the time, he just use a simple chainmail coat while travelling and normal clothes when at home.

In conclusion, real armors where just used in very specific occasions. So it seems really logical to me that the hawke companions didn't wear armors all the time (or at all).

Modifié par Oloos, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:48 .

[Adhin]

Klume you still have inventory in DA2, so do your companion. The only difference between them and your PC is there 'armor' (Armor, Boot, Gloves). You still outfit them with amulet, rings, and weapons. There 'Armor' has just been mashed into 1 thing for there specific character look. And that picture above is of Aveline. Who up till few days ago (where that picture was taken from the recent dev-dairy) we had always seen her like this: dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/File:Aveline_1.jpg

So that's more then just a 'skin change'. She goes from having this sorta leather jerkin over-throw thing that she had on due to Lothering assault or where ever you find her to getting armor later on in the game (for story reasons). That's most definitely an upgrade progression yeah?

Modifié par Adhin, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:55 .

[KLUME777]

Oloos wrote...

I dont' really understand why the Isabella's outfit bothers you so much...

I mean... She's a pirate right ? When you think "Pirate" did you see people in armors ? No... Most of the time, you see people in simples clothes, most of the time with just pants and a belt for their weapons. While Isabella is a pirate, it seems logical for me that she didn't wear any kind of armor. That's all...

And to be honest, most of the time, people wears armor just for somes occasions. Likes big battles, tournaments or so. For exemple, a medieval knight never wears is armor every time and every day. No. Most of the time, he just use a simple chainmail coat while travelling and normal clothes when at home.

In conclusion, real armors where just used in very specific occasions. So it seems really logical to me that the hawke companions didn't wear armors all the time (or at all).

Who are you refering too?

If it was me, i dont like it, or any of them, because it will stay like that the whole game (we'll see about these upgrades) and get very very boring, like ME2. One of the things i love in RPG's was customizing my party. Of coarse, if the outfits were outfits like Morrigans, in that it was just a normal peice of armour that could be swapped, id have no problem, and would probably use it for quite awhile. But Static is so boring to me.

Bioware introduced me to my love of customizing inventory, and now there removing it.

Modifié par KLUME777, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:58 .

[Adhin]

One change I would LOVE to see in DA2 that was in ME1 and more so in ME2 (though not used as much as I would of liked) is the idea of non-combat clothing... for non-combat stuff. For instance when your just walking around 'camp' (which is supposedly Kirkwall once you get there in DA2) you ware the non-combat outfit to wander around and only suit on when you leave or go on some specific quest event thing. Least I think that would be nice, its one thing I liked. ME2 all the companions should of had a secondary 'combat' outfit so when we where in space or toxic hostile areas they looked a little more proper then just having a bubble-face-mask thing. But its Dragon Age, not Mass Effect. They'res less awkward moments like that since your not gonna be walking out in space. If anything being in armor 24/7 is more of an awkward moment for me in them games then the other way around.

Also, anyone with a cap on didn't do it for me in DAO. Majority of there helmets where awful. To small and removed the hair, everyone looked like they went bald instantly when they put that leather cap on.

Modifié par Adhin, 11 décembre 2010 - 01:03 .

[Adhin]

Double Post, thing lagged there for awhile sorry.

Modifié par Adhin, 11 décembre 2010 - 01:02 .

[crimzontearz]

 ok, first off I do not buy Bioware's explanation about the horns in DAO. If the lore was already in place and Sten was already supposed to have been born without horns then every other Qunari in the game could have been rendered without a helmet showing off the horns.
Upon asking sten he could have just answered according to the Lore

-warden: hey sten where are your horns?
-Sten: some Qunari are born without them, such individuals are considered special and often become part of the berasaad like me.

very simple indeed.
now as for the fixed outfits. As long as they DO make sense (no chainmail bikini) and I can customize Hawke then I am ok. My preference would be for full visual customization but it is not essential if I can still play around with stats through charms rings and runes.

[Maconbar]

SirGladiator wrote...

It's amazing that there are some people who seemingly will agree with any decision that somebody who happens to work at Bioware makes, regardless of how obviously wrong it is. Taking away the ability to change a companion's outfit is completely insane, it's making the game more like ME strictly for its own sake. It doesnt "add character" to the characters in any way. To believe that, you have to believe that somehow all the DAO characters were worse because you could change their outfits. Oh, you mean Leliana doesn't wear that Chantry outfit anymore? Well then she has no character. You changed Morrigan's initial outfit? There went her character! Allistair without heavy armor? Zero character, why is he even on the team? Its beyond absurd, and I can't imagine anybody seriously believing something crazy like that.

On a similar note, all the arguing about what type of clothing looks best on which character, all of it should be pointless, because you 'should' be able to decide that for yourself rather than have it imposed upon you, that's the point after all, playing the game your own way, not somebody else's. It really shouldn't matter at all whether somebody else thinks Isabella's outfit is too revealing, not revealing enough, or what areas of the game it is or isn't ideal for wearing in, because you should be able to change it to an outfit you like better anytime you feel like it. Thats what basic options like that are for, I know that because I played DAO and I still remember how to do that .

The bottom line is this is a REALLY basic and simple option, one that already existed in the original so its not like anybody was asking them to add anything to the game. Taking it away does nothing but take away a LOT of the fun, as it is very fun and cool to change the characters outfits whenever you feel like it. I like the idea of making the game more like ME when they're adding a fun and cool option from ME, but not when they're simply taking away a fun and cool option from DA. This is a horrible decision, and quite frankly it's so crazy it never should've even been seriously considered, much less actually implemented.

Except the people that are generally in favor of this change aren't agreeing with BW regardless of how obviously wrong it is. I didn't like how BW handled body models for the companions in DA:O. If I put both Morrigan and Leliana in leather armor for example, it was amazingly similar they looked. Heads bolted onto outfits wasn't something that I liked that much. The limited video that I have seen from DA:2 seems to improve things from that perspective.

I am not saying that the lack of armor choice is a terrific thing. Ideally they would give us both distinct bodies and a range of  armor sets. I realize to accomplish this would require more resources, which probably isn't reasonable.

[Adhin]

So since I said I should, and im bored out of my mind here it is. My not-so-good transcripte of the pod cast. I only did the parts importantish to this thread and kinda skip past the reasons why they think the stuffs good or whatever. So all the stuff in qoutes is basically Mike Laidlaw.

"...but it goes a little deeper then that as well. Follower outfits arn't just you know a suit of armor an-and just some locked away thing. Through out the game its possible to find and buy upgrades to the follower armors. And what these produce are new effects on the armor that're-that're presistent through out the game. So being able to find, uhh y'know different kinds of padding, bein-able-to ALSO find, on occasion the ability to add runeslots 'to' the followers outfits. Meaning you can take them a step further and start using armor enchantments to further customize how they equip them selves. So this system hits a nice balance for me..."

Goes onto explain why he likes it being 'unique' look but allowing statistical customization, and the interviewer dudes being all 'yeah that makes sense'.

"....It's worth noting we're, I mean you know we're covering a 10 year history here. The followers Armor will progress on its own as well, like the follower will between periods of time or, as they progress they will actually grow stronger they'll-they'll kinda keep up. They're not gonna be in the same stuff they where waring at level 1. They'll do there own upgrades, kind of 'off line'. But everything you kind of slot in there or upgrade or, or purchase or find or whatever will all kind of persist all the way through. Um and like you said become kind of this legecy item."

Interviewer goes on to talking about weapons again, and how it reminds him of sten and his awesome RP sword which actually sucked horrible in game-stat wise and just wasn't useable unless you where crazy (though thats all my wording on it and I personally often used it but im a little crazy). Mike says to clarify...

"...yeah, yeah definitly-definitly in terms of there armor.. ehh, ehh weaponry I need to be quite clear. Weaponry can be changed out. Um, now its important to note for followers, that the followers will stick to the weapons that they prefer. Isabela is a duelist at heart, she was in Origins, she tought you how to be one. She-she y'know would teach you how to fight. Shes not exactly what you'd call a 'bow girl'. So she does have her prefrense for her daggers, but beyond that its up to you. A particular set you like... a particular set you've enchanted, that you think are particularly good - you can change them out. So you can change the models, the appearance that kind of thing from a weapons stand point. Outfit wise though this does hit exactly what your talking about is-is...Y'know, uhh Isabela in platemail would look rather strange, um knowing her she'd probably still look pretty sexy...."

And they go into explaining why they think its a good idea (and I pretty much agree with them entirely on that point). So yeah take it for what you will, would be nice to get a direct yes/no as to weather or not all companions armor upgrade directly in appearance but the way he says "...I mean you know we're covering a 10 year history here." and "They're not gonna be in the same stuff they where waring at level 1." makes me think graphically they all change at least once. So, well, heres hoping im right.

Modifié par Adhin, 11 décembre 2010 - 01:56 .

[biomag]

SirGladiator wrote...

It's amazing that there are some people who seemingly will agree with any decision that somebody who happens to work at Bioware makes, regardless of how obviously wrong it is. Taking away the ability to change a companion's outfit is completely insane, it's making the game more like ME strictly for its own sake. It doesnt "add character" to the characters in any way. To believe that, you have to believe that somehow all the DAO characters were worse because you could change their outfits. Oh, you mean Leliana doesn't wear that Chantry outfit anymore? Well then she has no character. You changed Morrigan's initial outfit? There went her character! Allistair without heavy armor? Zero character, why is he even on the team? Its beyond absurd, and I can't imagine anybody seriously believing something crazy like that.

.... and there goes your credibility. You ain't even trying to understand someones else opinion, just whining about how someone else isn't seeing the world from your point of view.

Its not about that BS you wrote. No one believes that the whole character of your companions is based on their clothing. At the same time you ain't realizing that the look and clothes your companions wear are a big part of how they are designed and why clothes like Morrigan's robe were locked to all others. What people wear is also a part of their indentity.

Now, as Bioware doesn't have unlimited resources I prefer them to make body models and the companion outfits more unique and recognizeable even if it means to reduce my options of clothing them (I ain't playing a dress up game anyhow). I was bored to death with how random each and every party member looked compared to bandits, farmers or mercs. I loved Morrigan's robe as it gave her a more unique feeling and represented her personality (deliberately sexy and provocative), still I had to drop them as after 2-3 hours of gameplay it was worthless and so I had to put her in some random robe that make her look like my oponents. Was her whole character gone? BS, but partially it was affected and it no longer looked like her.

What kind of fashion someone prefers is a very personal decision. Also apperance is extremely important when it comes to characters. You might not believe me, but ask PR-experts and designers. Clothes tell a lot about a person, so putting them in 2nd class random stuff is harming the storytelling and immersion... even if it suites your demand to control everybody in your party. Ask a comic author how many concepts he tried before he choose what his character should look like.

That's the arguement for companion outfits to expand the writers & devs options to present you THEIR characters, the way they wrote and designed them, and not "they are totally blank character once their clothes are gone:crying:".



@KOTOR I&II companion clothes: Perfect exsample of good idea that fails horribly. Yes they had their clothes, but without mods you had to put them into the very first armor you found as their equipement had no stats at all.

I ain't a mini-maxing type player, but I won't ignore the stats completely.

[Ziggeh]

SirGladiator wrote...

It's amazing that there are some people who seemingly will agree with any decision that somebody who happens to work at Bioware makes, regardless of how obviously wrong it is.

That rather assumes it is by definition wrong. If nothing else this thread shows that this is not the case. And please, starting your post with ad hominem?

SirGladiator wrote...
Taking away the ability to change a companion's outfit is completely
insane, it's making the game more like ME strictly for its own sake.

Again, not the case. It affects changes to something that was rather problematic in DA:O, and provides a side benefit. You can disagree, and that's fine, but you not liking the reason doesn't render it invalid.

SirGladiator wrote...
It doesnt "add character" to the characters in any way. To believe that, you have to believe that somehow all the DAO characters were worse because you could change their outfits. Oh, you mean Leliana doesn't wear that Chantry outfit anymore? Well then she has no character. You changed Morrigan's initial outfit? There went her character! Allistair without heavy armor? Zero character, why is he even on the team? Its beyond absurd, and I can't imagine anybody seriously believing something crazy like that.

Audio visual medium. They're not replacing the characterisation with graphics or anything, they're complimenting them. Visual cues are a large part of the way we make judgements about people, why would it be different in a game?

SirGladiator wrote...
The bottom line is this is a REALLY basic and simple option, one that already existed in the original so its not like anybody was asking them to add anything to the game.

This is really rather pedantic of me, but it bugs me when people say things like "it was already there", as if making the game involved cutting and pasting the DA:O data and Bob's your dads brother. It order to "keep" something that "already existed" they'd need to have done all the art and modeling work involved in adding new armours and related textures. So yes, it would be "adding something" to "retain" the same system.

Modifié par ziggehunderslash, 11 décembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[Apollo Starflare]

Isabela fighting in that outfit close up doesn't bother me because I have to suspend my disbelief with armor already. Say your tank in full massive armor gets hit by a fireball, he isn't going to just shrug that off in the 'real world', the same with leather armor - it won't protect consistantly against the constant barrage of arrows and pointy objects of death that attempt to pierce it.



As such games have alwas been like the movies for me, the hero characters just have that utterly unrealistic ability to not get hit as well as shrugging off any minor injuries they do get. Others have mentioned the likes of Robin Hood and Errol Flynn etc. There are plenty more examples, Star Wars being another.



A game like DA can't fully emulate the way combat in the real world plays out, or characters would die much quicker amongst other quirks; so there is no need to let it dictate how certain characters dress. Within reason of course, other factors apply and it still makes sense to dress Aveline in heavy armor for instance, but a pirate and a rogue like Isabela? The argument that her outfit wouldn't protect her is just pointless to me.

[sidion77]

I wish I had a nerd rage rebuttal to some of the posts in this thread but I don't...

I wouldn't mind character specific outfits as long as there was enough variety to keep things fresh and exciting. My preference has always been customization and although stats were important to me I would switch to different armour sets simply to mix things up in DA:O and other games like it.

[tmp7704]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't see how it's less work to create a handful of unique and detailed armors, different body types and unique animations than to simply recolor a handful of other armors that fit one body type with one set of animations.

The less work comes from building the "unique and detailed armour" only for one species/gender combination, while the universal approach requires the same amount of work to build the base model and then additional work to create variants which cover other gender/species combination.

Dave, can you please drop the body types argument? It is absolute red herring from the modeler perspective -- it makes no difference when you create something that there is some other model already which also happens to follow the same shape, or if the model you made before follows a different shape. The individual pieces are very much unrelated and so similarity (or lack thereof) has no impact on amount of work involved.

[Adhin]

ahh TMP how backwords your reasoning is. Its the otherway around. The models them selves can be scaled and form fitted to each race like they where in DAO (and NWN, and so on and so forth). Its easy to stretch and deform them to get the dwarf body type or the elf in comparison to starting with a human. What it ultimately means is in DOA they made 5 Armor types (not counting the... 2 robes), Altered there shape/size universally for the 2 other races and the 'skins' are all used across the board. Its ultimately less work then unique model per follower. EACH new unique look, is essentially a new monster graphic. To discount that as 'less work' is like saying making the Chainmail Armor for 3 races somehow took less or same amount of work as doing the concepte, and making 3 Monsters. Simply aint true.

Fact is when they go to make Isabela's unique look, they're not using some base clothing look that already exists and swapping out textures. She has a unique mesh, unique texture. It's more work. Period.
The only downside I see to this is that resource wise it may cut into what kind of armors Hawk may have available to him but they'll be covering the basics there too, probably be a lot of texture swapping for him which is about the same as DAO.

-edit-
Now don't get me wrong making that armor fit each race still takes time, and a lot of work. It just takes less concepte time and they don't have to rebuild the mesh, they just take a copy of it and deform it to match up with each race/gender. If they're didn't do a copy and deform in DAO, then they basically re-did there models far to often and basically added extra work onto what was actually needed. I highly doubt they did that as they didn't do it with NWN a much older game of theres.

Modifié par Adhin, 11 décembre 2010 - 04:58 .