1309 réponses à ce sujet

[nightcobra]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Xewaka wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Getting hung up on practicality sounds like a recipe for dull, in my opinion.
*sinp*
I respect that people would rather have one over the other but there is merit in the impracticality.

That is only because you believe practical must be dull. It doesn't have to.

Sorry, I meant if practicality was the rule across all media. Then, eventually, you'd run out of unique ways for someone to look practical and still stand out on a shelf in a Gamestop.

i'd rather let the artists go crazy with their creativity:innocent:

speaking of that, i'd really like to see the designs and sketches of "hoorishlan" (can't really spell what that named sounded like) hawke the lycanthrope going wild and tasting his own blood:devil:

[Maria Caliban]

Treating gameplay elements as though they reflected the setting?

In the *setting,* magic is rare. Enchantments are not commonplace. A person would not base their actions on the idea that everyone they interact with is armed to the teeth with enchanted weapons, has enchanted armor, and is backed up by mages. (Mages are rare.)

The PC's gameplay experience does not reflect this, but the PC is a one-in-a-million person. Not necessarily because they're inherently special, but because they lead a statistically unlikely life.

If Isabela managed to get her clothing enchanted, she would have ample reason to believe that the majority of people who attack her would not have enchanted weapons. However, given this takes place over 10 years, she'd quickly come to understand that things are often 'interesting' when Hawke is around.

Assuming she doesn't change her clothing (and everyone is assuming this - not sure why), she is acting in a way that isn't consistent with the setting.

Isabela's outfit is not practical. It does not make sense. It is not what someone would do in reality.

However, Isabela is a character, not a person. Isabela... is Batman. She can run around in spandex and somehow dodge all those goons firing bullets despite supposedly being in a gritty, dark world.

Does this cause narrative tension? Yes. At the same time, the developers have decided that a visual expression of character thought a single, distinctive look is more important than practicality. I agree with that decision.

[Xewaka]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Sorry, I meant if practicality was the rule across all media. Then, eventually, you'd run out of unique ways for someone to look practical and still stand out on a shelf in a Gamestop.

i'd rather let the artists go crazy with their creativity:innocent:
speaking of that, i'd really like to see the designs and sketches of "hoorishlan" (can't really spell what that named sounded like) hawke the lycanthrope going wild and tasting his own blood:devil:

Creativity is at its best when given a challenge.

Modifié par Xewaka, 12 décembre 2010 - 04:20 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Xewaka wrote...

Creativity is at its best when given a challenge.

In my experience that is 100% correct, however... what Maria said. ^

[Xewaka]

Maria Caliban wrote...
*snip*
Does this cause narrative tension? Yes. At the same time, the developers have decided that a visual expression of character thought a single, distinctive look is more important than practicality. I agree with that decision.

Pseudocognition wrote...
In my experience that is 100% correct, however... what Maria said.

Once again: single, distinctive looks and practicality are NOT mutually exclusive.

Modifié par Xewaka, 12 décembre 2010 - 04:23 .

[Maria Caliban]

Pseudocognition wrote...

To be honest her SA outfit doesn't really match my perception of her either. I do mental acrobatics to figure out what would say "Leliana" to me. Strange stuff. But yeah, my point exactly.

How does it clash with your perception of her?

Xewaka wrote...

Creativity is at its best when given a challenge.

Visually expressing a character created by someone else is a challenge.

[crimzontearz]

Maria Caliban wrote...
I imagine I've already made that mental leap. I cannot think of a single BioWare female that came off as nothing but T&A. In fact, I find the women in BioWare games to be some of the best written in the gaming industry.

I imagine I'm just projecting then. Problem is that given her role (possible) in DAO and the few lines we know about her I have the feeling her romance might be more superficial than others

[Maria Caliban]

Xewaka wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
*snip*
Does this cause narrative tension? Yes. At the same time, the developers have decided that a visual expression of character thought a single, distinctive look is more important than practicality. I agree with that decision.

Once again: single, distinctive looks and practicality are NOT mutually exclusive.

Good thing I never said that.

We're talking about visual expression of character. Aveline should wear armor. When Aermas complained she wasn't wearing metal armor, people agreed with him. Why? Because we know she considers herself a warrior and has a practical, earthy mindset. Her outfit should reflect that.

Can the same be said of Isabela? I would assume not.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 12 décembre 2010 - 04:31 .

[tmp7704]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Sorry, I meant if practicality was the rule across all media. Then, eventually, you'd run out of unique ways for someone to look practical and still stand out on a shelf in a Gamestop.

I don't think that's really much of issue. Take the FPS games for example, which routinely have to deal with their characters sporting standard uniforms.

You're still going to get quite a lot of variety simply because different games have different settings, meaning what's practical in one isn't identical looking with what's practical in another. Shepard's body armour is practical but it's different from uniform of WW2 soldier, from Indiana Jones' shirt and pants and from a knight's armour. In the end each of them stands out in some way when surrounded by the others on that store shelf.

Modifié par tmp7704, 12 décembre 2010 - 04:31 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

To be honest her SA outfit doesn't really match my perception of her either. I do mental acrobatics to figure out what would say "Leliana" to me. Strange stuff. But yeah, my point exactly.

How does it clash with your perception of her?

At least to me she seems like, pre-Origins (haven't played Leliana's song), she would have just... dripped with worldly class. She reminds of Satine from Moulin Rouge, in ways, but with more control over her life, and possibly more clothed. If Morrigan is woman because of ample cleavage, Leliana is woman because plays up the mystery angle. Not because she's conservative or anything, but because she just... knows. Like she would be practically dressed yet also more "sexy" than Morrigan. I also see her as a fair bit older than Morrigan, too, but this is all off topic lol.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

tmp7704 wrote...
I don't think that's really much of issue. Take the FPS games for example, which routinely have to deal with their characters sporting standard uniforms.

You're still going to get quite a lot of variety simply because different games have different settings, meaning what's practical in one isn't identical looking with what's practical in another. Shepard's body armour is practical but it's different from uniform of WW2 soldier, from Indiana Jones' shirt and pants and from a knight's armour. In the end each of them stands out in some way when surrounded by the others on that store shelf.

I will admit I had an exceptionally weak point, but I still disagree that a real-world semblance of practicality really matters in a medium that is inherently unrealistic down to its core mechanics.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 12 décembre 2010 - 04:37 .

[Maria Caliban]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

How does it clash with your perception of her?

At least to me she seems like, pre-Origins (haven't played Leliana's song), she would have just... dripped with worldly class. She reminds of Satine from Moulin Rouge, in ways, but with more control over her life, and possibly more clothed. If Morrigan is woman because of ample cleavage, Leliana is woman because plays up the mystery angle. Not because she's conservative or anything, but because she just... knows. Like she would be practically dressed yet also more "sexy" than Morrigan. I also see her as a fair bit older than Morrigan, too, but this is all off topic lol.

Would you say that Morrigan expresses the physicality of womanhood while Leliana expresses an idealized femininity?

I can not imagine any sort of armor that would capture what you're suggesting. Femininity, sophistication, playfulness, elusiveness. If Dragon Age drew more from Chinese or Japanese folklore, I think you'd have more to work with.

[CaptainBlackGold]

First, let me say that I support the DA team to create and express their own creative vision of what this game should be and how it should look.



Second, let me also say that I hate the idea of not being able to easily change that vision if it conflicts with my enjoyment of the game. TBH, I do not care for the look of many things (Isabella's face, the various armor/cothes we have already seen, etc.). I realize you cannot create a game that fits every player's tastes and I am not asking that.



Third, please Bioware, let us mod the companions' armor/faces, whatever - please do not put unnecessary roadblocks to other creative people who have a different vision and who will spend hundreds of hours in your world. Please, when you code this, just do not make it impossible for us to change it if we want.



Fourth, since consoles now make up 2/3rds of the consumer base, that means that those of us who have the option to mod the game are now a minority. I am not expecting you to make a game for us; I am just requesting that if at all possible, you let us keep the option to redesign the game to fit our vision of what the characters/armors should look like.



Thanks for letting me get that off my chest...

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I can not imagine any sort of armor that would capture what you're suggesting. Femininity, sophistication, playfulness, elusiveness. If Dragon Age drew more from Chinese or Japanese folklore, I think you'd have more to work with.

Sort of like... physical expression of femininity/womanhood for Morrigan versus emotional and behavioral expression of femininity/womanhood for Leliana.

Maybe I'll come up with something for her later once finals are over *throw art supplies* though I do have a "mod" of her in my albums.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 12 décembre 2010 - 04:42 .

[Maria Caliban]

What are you doing for finals?

[nightcobra]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

How does it clash with your perception of her?

At least to me she seems like, pre-Origins (haven't played Leliana's song), she would have just... dripped with worldly class. She reminds of Satine from Moulin Rouge, in ways, but with more control over her life, and possibly more clothed. If Morrigan is woman because of ample cleavage, Leliana is woman because plays up the mystery angle. Not because she's conservative or anything, but because she just... knows. Like she would be practically dressed yet also more "sexy" than Morrigan. I also see her as a fair bit older than Morrigan, too, but this is all off topic lol.

Would you say that Morrigan expresses the physicality of womanhood while Leliana expresses an idealized femininity?

I can not imagine any sort of armor that would capture what you're suggesting. Femininity, sophistication, playfulness, elusiveness. If Dragon Age drew more from Chinese or Japanese folklore, I think you'd have more to work with.

master lishao tao or xiuying came to mind^_^

[Xewaka]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Good thing I never said that.

We're talking about visual expression of character. Aveline should wear armor. When Aermas complained she wasn't wearing metal armor, people agreed with him. Why? Because we know she considers herself a warrior and has a practical, earthy mindset. Her outfit should reflect that.

Can the same be said of Isabela? I would assume not.

I think we have different perceptions of the character, then. Yes, Isabela is a flirty pirate. She is also a pragmatic duelist. I think this second part isn't emphasized enough in the character looks.
In addition to that, I'd expect her to wise up to the fact that traveling with Hawke would require a slightly different approach to combat than what she's used to.

Or maybe it's just that I think that having her wearing a padded waistcoat and a wide-brimmed hat (like a "golden age of Spain" duelist) is much more awesome and practical, while still in-character.

Modifié par Xewaka, 12 décembre 2010 - 05:38 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Maria Caliban wrote...

What are you doing for finals?

I have to design characters, environments, a vehicle, storyboard, key scenes etc for a story. Been working on it for 13 weeks now. It's like a hyper-condensed, very solitary, but lower stakes and no-pay version of pro concept art I guess.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 12 décembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[nightcobra]

Xewaka wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Good thing I never said that.

We're talking about visual expression of character. Aveline should wear armor. When Aermas complained she wasn't wearing metal armor, people agreed with him. Why? Because we know she considers herself a warrior and has a practical, earthy mindset. Her outfit should reflect that.

Can the same be said of Isabela? I would assume not.

I think we have different perceptions of the character, then. Yes, Isabela is a flirty pirate. She is also a pragmatic duelist. I think this second part isn't enfatized enough in the character looks.
In addition to that, I'd expect her to wise up to the fact that traveling with Hawke would require a slightly different approach to combat than what she's used to.

Or maybe it's just that I think that having her wearing a padded waistcoat and a wide-brimmed hat (like a "golden age of Spain" duelist) is much more awesome and practical, while still in-character.

that would be true if the word "duelist" carried the same meaning to us as it does to isabela, in dragon age it seems that being a "duelist" means having experience of fighting against heavily armored foes while you yourself rely on grace and wit instead of armor as opposed to our world's meaning of "duelist"

[tmp7704]

Pseudocognition wrote...

I will admit I had an exceptionally weak point, but I still disagree that a real-world semblance of practicality really matters in a medium that is inherently unrealistic down to its core mechanics.

To me, some believeable level of practicality matters because it supports the expectations i have regarding the settings, and as such it helps to maintain my suspension of disbelief.

For example, why does fireball in DA burn rather than make things wet? It's frickin' magic after all, they could make it just as unrealistic as they'd want, too. But we're accustomed to fire well, burning things, and the game complies. Same reason people in the game poke others with sharp pieces of metal instead of glowing marshmallows, etc.

So, i think if the medium has some level of "realism" to it, it should either maintain that throughout all elements, or at least remain consistent with itself when it chooses to opt out. I.e. if Isabela is supposed to be excused she's wearing stupid outfit "because it could be enchanted!" then actually make it enchanted -- give it the stats, the runes, the description that indeed make that outfit seem somewhat practical and which i can see when examining items in the inventory window. Because i can see all other runes and enchantment there, so i expect the same when it comes to her silly garments.

Modifié par tmp7704, 12 décembre 2010 - 04:58 .

[Maria Caliban]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

What are you doing for finals?

I have to design characters, environments, a vehicle, storyboard, key scenes etc for a story. Been working on it for 13 weeks now. It's like a hyper-condensed, very solitary, but lower stakes and no-pay version of pro concept art I guess.

Sounds stressful. My finals were usually in the form of tests/essays.

How will they evaluate your work?

[Xewaka]

nightcobra8928 wrote...

that would be true if the word "duelist" carried the same meaning to us as it does to isabela, in dragon age it seems that being a "duelist" means having experience of fighting against heavily armored foes while you yourself rely on grace and wit instead of armor as opposed to our world's meaning of "duelist"

Duelist class description:
"Duelists are deadly combatants who prefer to fight in light armour and strike with light, but precise attacks. Experienced duelists have preternatural reflexes that allow them to evade their opponents' clumsy blows, as well as strike with remarkable precision."

About Isabela "swashbuckler" style:
"She has picked up a special fighting technique during her travels, one that depends on speed instead of strength."

On pragmatism:
"I win because I cheat, Kitten. I thought that was obvious." - Isabela

I see nowhere reference to beat better armored foes. I do see a pragmatic fighter relying in trickery and efficience. That seems close enough to our world view of a duelist.

Modifié par Xewaka, 12 décembre 2010 - 05:39 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Sounds stressful. My finals were usually in the form of tests/essays.

How will they evaluate your work?

You set an objective or goal for each design (for example, one thing I have to come up with a is a grouchy bitter schoolmarm of a dragon), come up with multiple solutions, and then refine the best solution. Whatever fits the objective best, and also stands out in the context of all relevant media (as in, for example, all design in recent 3D animated film) wins. Rinse and repeat with every design element until the project is done and you have expressed a coherent, unique vison. It's more fun than "rinse and repeat" but deadlines loom.

Considering this is... exactly the process used in the professional concept art world (or so I have been told by people who have worked on Big Budget Movies like Avatar, so they might be right), then if you see that Isabela's appearance needs to express some manner of dextrousness, sexuality, uninhibitedness, trickiness, confidence or c ockiness, and then compare her to the western RPG market at large, she wins.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 12 décembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[Maria Caliban]

Xewaka wrote...

I think we have different perceptions of the character, then. Yes, Isabela is a flirty pirate. She is also a pragmatic duelist. I think this second part isn't enfatized enough in the character looks.
In addition to that, I'd expect her to wise up to the fact that traveling with Hawke would require a slightly different approach to combat than what she's used to.

Enfatized = emphasized?

The problem with this conversation is that we don't know Isabela's character well enough. I'm assuming she'll be a Jack or Thane when it comes to character design, where you think she'll be a Samara or a Miranda.

[Xewaka]

Maria Caliban wrote...
Enfatized = emphasized?

That is correct. I'll edit it.

Maria Caliban wrote...
The problem with this conversation is that we don't know Isabela's character well enough. I'm assuming she'll be a Jack or Thane when it comes to character design, where you think she'll be a Samara or a Miranda.

Fair enough. We have very little information on the character and even less of a clue on how to weight each piece of info.