1309 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

tmp7704 wrote...

Not my point at all. It doesn't matter if the reason you find the game unplayable or not is single or if there's more of them, and how prominent that perceived issue is -- in most cases it's going to be something "highly idiosyncratic".

If I understand you, you're arguing that all game elements are subject and that there's no qualitative different between "I don't like one element of it it" and "It is bad."

That's a fine viewpoint. Not one I hold, but okay.

However, I don't plan on altering my language to reflect your viewpoint.

[Snoteye]

tmp7704 wrote...

As for what i needed to call a game unplayable... well, that's just the individual player's decision and no one else's, no?

Correct, it isn't. Unplayable means "cannot be played," not "do not want to play."

[tmp7704]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If I understand you, you're arguing that all game elements are subject and that there's no qualitative different between "I don't like one element of it it" and "It is bad."

It's more like, i'm arguing that aside from few situations which are definitely objective -- when game is bugged to the point it cannot be played, e.g. -- the decision to quit playing will be based on player's own, individual taste. "It is bad" does effectively mean "I don't like the way it's made" after all.

As such, i just found that remark about idiosyncrasy to be a truism, and offered one to match it.

[tmp7704]

Snoteye wrote...

Unplayable means "cannot be played," not "do not want to play."

Unplayable means "not capable of or suitable to be played". The latter is determined by the individual's preferences and standards of "suitable".

[Crimson Invictus]

tmp7704 wrote...
Unplayable means "not capable of or suitable to be played". .

Mind offering a link to that definition?

[Addai]

Snoteye wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

As for what i needed to call a game unplayable... well, that's just the individual player's decision and no one else's, no?

Correct, it isn't. Unplayable means "cannot be played," not "do not want to play."

Whatever it is that makes a person say "enough of this, I'd rather be doing something else with my time" or "egad how annoying, see ya later", that element makes the game unplayable.

For me it is the Shepard VO that has made Mass Effect unplayable.  I'm currently making my way through and have stopped gritting my teeth, but it's definitely a detraction to the game.  Between that and the Mako, holy Maker...

Anyway, not being able to change something we used to be able to change is automatically going to make it more difficult to please everyone.  But if the devs consider that a fair tradeoff, more power to them I guess.  Not going to celebrate it, given the fact that so many of the outfits in BW games are goofy looking.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Anyway, not being able to change something we used to be able to change is automatically going to make it more difficult to please everyone.  But if the devs consider that a fair tradeoff, more power to them I guess.  Not going to celebrate it, given the fact that so many of the outfits in BW games are goofy looking.

Unless that very feature displeased people, and it being gone pleases them.

[tmp7704]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

Mind offering a link to that definition?

http://www.google.co...fine:unplayable

[Crimson Invictus]

Not a decent one then. OED disagrees with your definition as well.

[tmp7704]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

Not a decent one then. OED disagrees with your definition as well.

Considering OED defines "unplayable" as "incapable of being played" which in turn includes "unfit", i disagree with your interpretation of OED's definition.

[Snoteye]

That's not how OED defines "incapable."

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Anyway, not being able to change something we used to be able to change is automatically going to make it more difficult to please everyone.  But if the devs consider that a fair tradeoff, more power to them I guess.  Not going to celebrate it, given the fact that so many of the outfits in BW games are goofy looking.

Unless that very feature displeased people, and it being gone pleases them.

Don't see how you can be displeased about being able to, but not forced to, change something to suit your taste.  Does not compute.  But whatever.

[Iakus]

Matchy Pointy wrote...

I like the companion outfits, more unique looking companions is always fun.

Unique appearances are good.

Appearances locked in an unchangeable, potentially not so good.

[crimzontearz]

I'm with Maria on this one. Something "unplayable" is not necessarily broken if perspective is added to define why it is unplayable. Golf is, to me, unplayable as a game because it is far too boring. Fallout is unplayable for me because the whole retro post apocalyptic sci fi setting just turns me off. My daughter finds pesto unedible because of its taste...and so on and so forth

[Russalka]

crimzontearz wrote...
First off we KNOW Aveline switches to full plate soon enough which only makes sense.
Second, about Jack, how about since she is part of a commando unit and she gets to work in vacuum and damn near caustically hostile environment she should wear a sealed hardsuit?
And don't give me the BS that she is a biotic because that just does not hold water. Biotics can be sabotaged and brought down at which point jack has ZERO defense against the environment and incoming fire....and ME guns have enough impact force to be downright bone pulverizing.
And what happens if,say, she passes out for whatever reason? Her biotics shut down because she loses consciousness and she dies from exposure in moments? COME ON!
Characters can be given unique looks but for God's sake those looks do not have to be ridiculously impractical and require stupid amounts of suspension of disbelief.

How is your post relevant at all to what I said?
I have not claimed no one knows about the armour Aveline eventually gets, but I said her "apron" makes sense because she is fleeing from an invasion.

And Jack is off-topic, but if you have noticed, biotic characters have purple bars as their shield, meaning they are always holding up a biotic barrier, or at least one that is connected to their power. The enviroment is when game mechanics clash with the plot, but whose fault is it if they would not give proper suits to people when they went into a hazardous area?

[tmp7704]

Snoteye wrote...

That's not how OED defines "incapable."

Meh, their page no longer permits me to search but it's about half way through the definition of it. In any case this is quite academic given the dictionaries tend to lag behind actual use of the language. And as far as that goes the gamers seem to often enough make statements along lines of "i couldn't play it, it's just too ugly". Whether a big dictionary chooses to recognize it 10-20 years down the road... i don't think either of us will care at that point.

[crimzontearz]

Aveline puts on full plate therefore we KNOW that the apron was there only because she had no access to proper armor. The fact she wears the apron early on is not the result of an elective process but lack of options.


Jack is not off topic and YOU used her as an example. As I said biotic barriers can be dropped either because they took too much damage or because someone tore them down.....or if someone is knocked out so wearing nothing but a nipple belt would have resulted in Jack dying the moment she took a single hit past her barrier...or sooner if she was in an adverse environmment. Whose fault is it? THE DEVS' since they chose the damn outfit. How is it relevant? You are the one saying "let them wear what they like" and it makes very little sense in many situations. How about this, go to a marine stationed in Afghanistan and tell him to take off his vest and wear a t-shirt while on the field...let's see what he tells you.

Modifié par crimzontearz, 13 décembre 2010 - 06:09 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
Don't see how you can be displeased about being able to, but not forced to, change something to suit your taste.  Does not compute.  But whatever.

Because a unique apperance has value in itself. In DA:O. the only unique apperance available to you is Morrigan. No other character can look distinct from the NPCs. In DA2, this is at least possible with everyone save maybe Hawke. In ME2, this was possible for everyone.

In this case, being able to change armour is only possible in a way that does not suit my taste.

Modifié par In Exile, 13 décembre 2010 - 06:13 .

[Russalka]

crimzontearz wrote...

Aveline puts on full plate therefore we KNOW that the apron was there only because she had no access to proper armor. The fact she wears it in not the result of an elective process but lack of options.
Jack it's not off topic and YOU used her as an example. As I said biotic barriers can be dropped either because they took too much damage or because someone tore them down.....or if someone is knocked out so wearing nothing but a nipple belt would have resulted in Jack dying the moment she took a single hit past her barrier...or sooner if she was in an adverse environmment. Whose fault is it? THE DEVS' since they chose the damn outfit. How is it relevant? You are the one saying "let them wear what they like" and it makes very little sense in many situations. How about this, go to a marine stationed in Afghanistan and tell him to take off his vest and wear a t-shirt while on the field...let's see what he tells you.

Did you pay any attention to the posts I was quoting? Or what I meant with my own?
They brought in Jack, and she is off-topic, because last time I checked she is not making an appearance in Dragon Age 2.

What I meant by them wearing wanting whatever they want was an outfit that corresponds to their personality and their situation, not some fan service or the opinions of "she is so ugly in that, please make her change it". That is for the Aveline part.

Yes, Jack is not a good example in this, Mass Effect 2 overall is not a good example with some cheap entertainment within it, but to think she is completely defenseless, the most powerful human biotic, is rather illogical. Her appearance CAN be explained, she just does not care what she looks like, what she wears. She has her powers, and was the team ever in an enviroment SO dangerous that she would probably die in a matter of seconds without shielding?

But arguing about that would only derail it further.

Modifié par Russalka, 13 décembre 2010 - 06:19 .

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
Don't see how you can be displeased about being able to, but not forced to, change something to suit your taste.  Does not compute.  But whatever.

Because a unique apperance has value in itself. In DA:O. the only unique apperance available to you is Morrigan. No other character can look distinct from the NPCs. In DA2, this is at least possible with everyone save maybe Hawke. In ME2, this was possible for everyone.

In this case, being able to change armour is only possible in a way that does not suit my taste.

Unique has no value if you don't like what's offered.  But since you brought up Morrigan, it's apparently possible to both have your cake and eat it.  As opposed to have your cake it and lump it if you don't like the taste.

[Addai]

Russalka wrote...
What I meant by them wearing wanting whatever they want was an outfit that corresponds to their personality and their situation, not some fan service or the opinions of "she is so ugly in that, please make her change it". That is for the Aveline part.

Bolding this because that is really what many of us are talking about.  It's fine if Isabela doesn't want to wear pants while she's on her ship, or elf dude wants to run around barefoot... for whatever reason he does that.  But if you're recruiting them to aid you during heavy fighting, the situation dictates a wardrobe change.

[crimzontearz]

Russalka wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
Aveline puts on full plate therefore we KNOW that the apron was there only because she had no access to proper armor. The fact she wears it in not the result of an elective process but lack of options.

Jack it's not off topic and YOU used her as an example. As I said biotic barriers can be dropped either because they took too much damage or because someone tore them down.....or if someone is knocked out so wearing nothing but a nipple belt would have resulted in Jack dying the moment she took a single hit past her barrier...or sooner if she was in an adverse environmment. Whose fault is it? THE DEVS' since they chose the damn outfit. How is it relevant? You are the one saying "let them wear what they like" and it makes very little sense in many situations. How about this, go to a marine stationed in Afghanistan and tell him to take off his vest and wear a t-shirt while on the field...let's see what he tells you.

Did you pay any attention to the posts I was quoting? Or what I meant with my own?
They brought in Jack, and she is off-topic, because last time I checked she is not making an appearance in Dragon Age 2.
What I meant by them wearing wanting whatever they want was an outfit that corresponds to their personality and their situation, not some fan service or the opinions of "she is so ugly in that, please make her change it". That is for the Aveline part.
Yes, Jack is not a good example in this, Mass Effect 2 overall is not a good example with some cheap entertainment within it, but to think she is completely defenseless, the most powerful human biotic, is rather illogical. Her appearance CAN be explained, she just does not care what she looks like, what she wears. She has her powers, and was the team ever in an enviroment SO dangerous that she would probably die in a matter of seconds without shielding?
But arguing about that would only derail it further.

yes and that's why "let them wear what they want" does not work because sometimes the devs' idea of what they want makes no sense with the situation or even the skillset of a character

as for Jack...uh let's see, as powerful as she is her body is human, Mass Effect slugs would literaly pulverize her bones if they got past her barrier unless she wore armor. As for envirnmental hazards? Top of my head I remember like two or three that would be fatal within a few seconds like that chloridic acid athmosphere planet.

[Snoteye]

Addai67 wrote...

Unique has no value if you don't like what's offered.

But it does if you do. There really isn't all that much meat on this discussion because it all boils down to whether you would like the ability to customize companion outfits or not. Any logical argument tends to fall flat on its face by this being a (fantasy) game. The advantages and disadvantages, all things being equal, largely outweigh each other. The one big problem I see with preset outfits is that any given outfit can simply be badly designed and then you're stuck with it. Most of ME2's outfits felt uninspired to me but I'd still rather have well done presets than the ability to look like Isabela did in DA:O (really?).

"People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like." - Abraham Lincoln.

Addai67 wrote...

... it's apparently possible to both have your cake and eat it.

It is, actually; it's the other way around it gets tricky.

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote..
Unique has no value if you don't like what's offered.  But since you brought up Morrigan, it's apparently possible to both have your cake and eat it.  As opposed to have your cake it and lump it if you don't like the taste.

I don't understand what you're talking about.

First, you said there was no way removing visual customization could please more people.

I pointed out that this is not the case.

You said you could not understand how less visual customization could somehow be good.

I brought up that people who prefer unique appearances would be intrinsically pleased, and this was not possible in DA:O. DA2 is outright superior.

If what you're trying to say is that a fixed apperance might still displease people because it isn't the fixed appearance they want, that's shifting the goalpost. We don't know whether people prefer a unique apperance to a good apperance.

Not to mention that this is a criticism I can apply to DA:O. If I think all the armour designs suck, why does it matter if I can pick between them.

And the Morrigan example is nonsensical - you can't do this with anyone expect Morrigain in DA:O. This is the complain.

More to the point, I would always be against allowing Morrigain in either leather or heavy armour.

Modifié par In Exile, 13 décembre 2010 - 06:51 .