147 réponses à ce sujet

[Legbiter]

You...you did what?

[Zulu_DFA]

Barquiel wrote...

I wonder what happened to "the reapers are coming and galaxy needs every resource/technology to win"

First, unless you do Noveria after Virmire, you have no confirmation that the Reapers are real, while the Rachni War was very real.

Barquiel wrote...
I suppose the queen wants to survive = the rachni are interested to destroy the reaper fleet

Secondly, there is zero record of successful cooperation between the Rachni and any other species. Even the Krogans, dumb brutes they are, can be reasoned with.

Barquiel wrote...
The Asari "ambassador" on Illium says that when her ship crashed the Rachni were able to rebuild it rather quickly and made it better (better than asari/council technology) than it was before.

I suppose their technology isn't based on reaper technology  (maybe organic ships or something - at least a different path of technology).

And in ME1 you can know it how?

Even if in ME3 the spared Rachni are beneficial (which will be a plothole, just like the Rachni possessing better tech than the Citadel races 2K years after the Rachni have been defeated), it'll only mean that the Paragons have lucked out yet again. And  still, killing the queen back in ME1 will remain a morally right choice, because given the information you are given in ME1, setting the queen loose is nothing less than gambling with the Galactic/Humanity's security, Reapers or no Reapers.

Also, how many people do you think the Queen must kill and necro-use to make it off Noveria?

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 11 décembre 2010 - 04:42 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Barquiel wrote...

I wonder what happened to "the reapers are coming and galaxy needs every resource/technology to win"

When you make the Rachni choice, you don't know about the Reaper threat. You don't even really know about Indoctrination except from the allusions of people who have every reason to lie about their complicity.

I suppose their technology isn't based on reaper technology  (maybe organic ships or something - at least a different path of technology).

If it's using mass effect technology, it's Reaper tech. It doesn't have to be identical to current-galactic tech to fall under the perview of 'Reaper intended paths'.

[Vaenier]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Even if in ME3 the spared Rachni are beneficial (which will be a plothole, just like the Rachni possessing better tech than the Citadel races 2K years after the Rachni have been defeated), it'll only mean that the Paragons have lucked out yet again. And  still, killing the queen back in ME1 will remain a morally right choice, because given the infmoration you are given in ME1, setting the queen loose is gambling with the Galactic/Humanity's security.

Due to divergance of technology, their organic tech has always been superior. Citadel races seem to have reached a sort of max of their current technology, unable to progress without taking huge leaps to radically different paths like the Geth or Reaper tech.

Also, how many people do you think the Queen must kill and necro-use to make it off Noveria?

I dont think she made a ship out of people's biomass. Its more likely she just stole a shuttle. It really is wierd how the game just lets her lose right there and thats it. It would be awsome if the Normandy picked her up and dropped her off on another planet. It really should have been more controlled, should of kept an eye on her for her own safety and the galaxies, but it just drops off like nobody cares. Killing it was the wrong choice, but so was letting it free and never thinking about it again till it bites you in the ass.

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I suppose their technology isn't based on reaper technology  (maybe organic ships or something - at least a different path of technology).

If it's using mass effect technology, it's Reaper tech. It doesn't have to be identical to current-galactic tech to fall under the perview of 'Reaper intended paths'.

Mass effect technology is not Reaper technology. Looking at the plans Protheans left behind and basing your entire civilization around them is using Reaper technology.

[MagicPineapple]

@Zulu_DFA

And when we first selected the option to free the queen in Mass Effect 1, we had no idea the Normandy would be destroyed in Mass Effect 2, or if Shepard would get spaced, or if we would ever work with a Geth on our team, if you are arguing (out of character knowledge) then this is the wrong place to do it.

[CroGamer002]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And in ME1 you can know it how?

Even if in ME3 the spared Rachni are beneficial (which will be a plothole, just like the Rachni possessing better tech than the Citadel races 2K years after the Rachni have been defeated), it'll only mean that the Paragons have lucked out yet again. And  still, killing the queen back in ME1 will remain a morally right choice, because given the information you are given in ME1, setting the queen loose is nothing less than gambling with the Galactic/Humanity's security, Reapers or no Reapers.

Also, how many people do you think the Queen must kill and necro-use to make it off Noveria?

Are you insane?!

Genocide is morally good?!


Then is morally good to destroy Genophage, letting refinery workers to die to kill some criminal, letting hostages to die to capture/kill/let Batarian terrorist die slowly, letting missiles destroy capital to save spaceport...


YOU DON'T KNOW DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MORALITY AND LOGIC!

[Reiella]

DPSSOC wrote...

That One Display Name wrote...

Reiella wrote...
So, I'm guessing no survivors at Zhu's Hope?

Different situation.
We killed the Thorian.
The reapers on the other hand are still out there

Not to mention that wasn't a case of one creature being mind-controlled dominated an entire species.  All it takes is for the Rachni Queen to be indoctrinated and it's over, the Rachni are allies no more.

Not quite agreeing with your view of differences, but it's a difference of opinion and view .

But I will poss another quandary.  The Keepers.  They were very much a tool of the Reapers, completely indoctrinated and intended to facilitate the destruction of galactic civilization.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Honestly, I am baffled that anyone would think, while standing in front of the Rachni queen, "hey, this species has a history of only hostility to other organics. Now, the queen sees that she's going to die and says, 'we'll play nice, I promise.' Well, I guess that we could let her go and hopefully she'll be an ally against the Reapers."



That thought process makes no sense to me. Also, unless Noveria is completed after Virmire, Shepard doesn't even fully understand the Reaper threat, making the "I'm going to release her because of the Reapers" argument fall a little flat.

[CroGamer002]

^Here's my defense.

Genocide bad.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Mesina2 wrote...

^Here's my defense.
Genocide bad.

So genocide is never justifiable? Would you wipe out the Reapers had you the chance?

[Vaenier]

How hard would it be to isolate the queen after releasing her out of the lab to save her? If she is good, she will just turn her self in for relocation and observation. If she is evil, its one single bug on an ice planet, she aint going anywhere. Noveria is already a corporate fortress. Why must the story ignore so many valid options and only let the player choose between stupid good and stupid evil?

[Phaedon]

I really hope that some of the people here have different morals on the internet and real life. Otherwise, the world is a really f***** up place.

[Vaenier]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Here's my defense.
Genocide bad.

So genocide is never justifiable? Would you wipe out the Reapers had you the chance?

I would kill every single hostile Reaper. If that is all of them and is genocide, then so be it. If one freshly made Reaper says it is leaving and never coming back, then whatever.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mesina2 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

And in ME1 you can know it how?

Even if in ME3 the spared Rachni are beneficial (which will be a plothole, just like the Rachni possessing better tech than the Citadel races 2K years after the Rachni have been defeated), it'll only mean that the Paragons have lucked out yet again. And  still, killing the queen back in ME1 will remain a morally right choice, because given the information you are given in ME1, setting the queen loose is nothing less than gambling with the Galactic/Humanity's security, Reapers or no Reapers.

Also, how many people do you think the Queen must kill and necro-use to make it off Noveria?

Are you insane?!

Genocide is morally good?!


Then is morally good to destroy Genophage, letting refinery workers to die to kill some criminal, letting hostages to die to capture/kill/let Batarian terrorist die slowly, letting missiles destroy capital to save spaceport...


YOU DON'T KNOW DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MORALITY AND LOGIC!

You know, I do believe you may well be the first person to argue against the morality of destroying the Collector Base. And the Heretic Geth. And the Reapers.


That aside, logic is a form of morality. You can even argue that illogical choices can't be argued as moral because of the illogic of trying to justify them.

[CroGamer002]

Vaenier wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Here's my defense.
Genocide bad.

So genocide is never justifiable? Would you wipe out the Reapers had you the chance?

I
would kill every single hostile Reaper. If that is all of them and is
genocide, then so be it. If one freshly made Reaper says it is leaving
and never coming back, then whatever.

^When some race has body count bigger then trillions of trillions I think it doesn't deserve to live.

Also Reapers are even dangerous dead( IFF mission) and if somebody manage to control their technology of indoctrination it would be REALLY dangerous.

Modifié par Mesina2, 11 décembre 2010 - 05:45 .

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Vaenier wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Here's my defense.
Genocide bad.

So genocide is never justifiable? Would you wipe out the Reapers had you the chance?

I would kill every single hostile Reaper. If that is all of them and is genocide, then so be it. If one freshly made Reaper says it is leaving and never coming back, then whatever.

Honestly, believing a Reaper that says he's not hostile when facing his doom does not make you moral, it makes you dangerously naive.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Mesina2 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

^Here's my defense.
Genocide bad.

So genocide is never justifiable? Would you wipe out the Reapers had you the chance?

I
would kill every single hostile Reaper. If that is all of them and is
genocide, then so be it. If one freshly made Reaper says it is leaving
and never coming back, then whatever.

^When some race has body count bigger then trillions of trillions I think it doesn't deserve to live.

Also Reapers are even dangerous dead( IFF mission) and if somebody manage to control their technology of indoctrination it would be REALLY dangerous.

So you admit that genocide is sometimes justifiable. Therefore your first argument holds zero weight.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I suppose their technology isn't based on reaper technology  (maybe organic ships or something - at least a different path of technology).

If it's using mass effect technology, it's Reaper tech. It doesn't have to be identical to current-galactic tech to fall under the perview of 'Reaper intended paths'.

Mass effect technology is not Reaper technology. Looking at the plans Protheans left behind and basing your entire civilization around them is using Reaper technology.

Mass effect technology is the epitomy of Reaper technology. The Mass Effect is the defining comonality between all galactic civilizations in the cycle of destruction. The Council and Alliance based their technology on the mass effect principals discovered from the Protheans and the relays. The protheans based their mass effect technology on those that came before and the relays. Mass Effect technology, in the Relays in the Citadel, is the single most important basis of the Reaper tech development paths.

Yes, mass effect technology is Reaper technology. They developed it first. They leave it behind because they want us to find it, utilizie it, rely on it. It's the entire basis of their trap. It may well be the entire reason for their trap as well, if dark energy theories are to be believed.

[Vaenier]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Honestly, believing a Reaper that says he's not hostile when facing his doom does not make you moral, it makes you dangerously naive.

It is dumb to kill that which you do not understand. If there is a Reaper that does not want to kill us, then that is a good oppertunity to learn more about them. You have seen two Reapers and automatically believe that every single thing that looks like a Reaper in the universe is automatically evil. Maybe its children are innocent, and just manipulated. maybe the reaper fetus was just scared because some random dude was shooting it. it didnt care about you till after you decided to shoot out several vital connections that were helping it.

There is no way to know unless you actually try to understand them. Shooting them first and asking questions later is reckless.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Vaenier wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Honestly, believing a Reaper that says he's not hostile when facing his doom does not make you moral, it makes you dangerously naive.

It is dumb to kill that which you do not understand. If there is a Reaper that does not want to kill us, then that is a good oppertunity to learn more about them. You have seen two Reapers and automatically believe that every single thing that looks like a Reaper in the universe is automatically evil. Maybe its children are innocent, and just manipulated. maybe the reaper fetus was just scared because some random dude was shooting it. it didnt care about you till after you decided to shoot out several vital connections that were helping it.

There is no way to know unless you actually try to understand them. Shooting them first and asking questions later is reckless.

It's dumber to let the species endure when 100% of the interaction you've had with them indicates they want to wipe you out. When those lines are drawn it becomes us versus them. I'm sure as hell not gonna let them win.

[Vaenier]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Barquiel wrote...

I suppose their technology isn't based on reaper technology  (maybe organic ships or something - at least a different path of technology).

If it's using mass effect technology, it's Reaper tech. It doesn't have to be identical to current-galactic tech to fall under the perview of 'Reaper intended paths'.

Mass effect technology is not Reaper technology. Looking at the plans Protheans left behind and basing your entire civilization around them is using Reaper technology.

Mass effect technology is the epitomy of Reaper technology. The Mass Effect is the defining comonality between all galactic civilizations in the cycle of destruction. The Council and Alliance based their technology on the mass effect principals discovered from the Protheans and the relays. The protheans based their mass effect technology on those that came before and the relays. Mass Effect technology, in the Relays in the Citadel, is the single most important basis of the Reaper tech development paths.

Yes, mass effect technology is Reaper technology. They developed it first. They leave it behind because they want us to find it, utilizie it, rely on it. It's the entire basis of their trap. It may well be the entire reason for their trap as well, if dark energy theories are to be believed.

Mass effect technology is just the natural progression of technology. finding ezero on mars and learning how to use it from scratch is not reaper technology. its natural development. saying mass effect technology is automatically reaper tech is like saying all space travel is reaper technology because they want to you spread among the stars.

The clincher about "Reaper Tech" is really only the relays. It is foriegn tech that civilizations become completely dependant on to survive. That is really the only thing they care about.

The alternate is just stunting growth and waiting for hyperspace to be found.

[Vaenier]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Honestly, believing a Reaper that says he's not hostile when facing his doom does not make you moral, it makes you dangerously naive.

It is dumb to kill that which you do not understand. If there is a Reaper that does not want to kill us, then that is a good oppertunity to learn more about them. You have seen two Reapers and automatically believe that every single thing that looks like a Reaper in the universe is automatically evil. Maybe its children are innocent, and just manipulated. maybe the reaper fetus was just scared because some random dude was shooting it. it didnt care about you till after you decided to shoot out several vital connections that were helping it.

There is no way to know unless you actually try to understand them. Shooting them first and asking questions later is reckless.

It's dumber to let the species endure when 100% of the interaction you've had with them indicates they want to wipe you out. When those lines are drawn it becomes us versus them. I'm sure as hell not gonna let them win.

Vaenier wrote...

You have seen two Reapers and automatically believe that every single
thing that looks like a Reaper in the universe is automatically evil.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

[quote]Vaenier wrote...

You have seen two Reapers and automatically believe that every single
thing that looks like a Reaper in the universe is automatically evil.[/quote]

[/quote]

I don't think they're evil. I think they're a threat to organic life in the Milky Way. It would be irresponsible of me to let them live based on the chance that there may be some good Reapers had I the chance to kill them. I can only act on what I know. Acting contrary to what I know and according to what could be is illogical.

[Dean_the_Young]

Vaenier wrote...
Mass effect technology is just the natural progression of technology. finding ezero on mars and learning how to use it from scratch is not reaper technology. its natural development. saying mass effect technology is automatically reaper tech is like saying all space travel is reaper technology because they want to you spread among the stars.

We didn't find E-zero on mars, we found a prothean station left by the Reapers with technology to make E-zero. And the Protheans got their technology from what the Reapers left behind with the civilization before that. Eventually, it all goes back to what the Reapers developed and left behind for discovery and usage.

The clincher about "Reaper Tech" is really only the relays. It is foriegn tech that civilizations become completely dependant on to survive. That is really the only thing they care about.

The alternate is just stunting growth and waiting for hyperspace to be found.

And? Alternates existing (or not) doesn't mean that we weren't intended to develop mass effect technology by the Reapers.