46 réponses à ce sujet

[Bozorgmehr]

Omega-202 wrote...

As stated above, I think that Kronner fudged up with the range modifier.  I'm pretty sure that Christina Norman said that it was actually the only multiplicative bonus, so therefore he only half counted for the ammo bonus (or double counted the rest, depending on whether you want to use the range mod in your calc).  

My example only left out armor, class and Miranda bonuses which add up to an extra ~45%?  Not a huge difference. 

I don't think Kronner's formula is far from the truth; it's how it functions in-game. Ammo powers don't receive any multipliers, I'm sure about that and it wouldn't make sense - it's illogical and it would be extremely bad for balance. Just consider what you're saying is true, that would mean ammo powers add Warp-/Overload-like damage per shot. Fortunately it doesn't, it would break the game. Ammo power damage is small (using fully upgraded weapons), you can test it yourself. I did, and I didn't noticed any real difference - the Mattock needs to fire the same number of shots to kill a Collector Drone. Maybe you save one or two shots against more powerful enemies, but that's about it. Ammo power's true strength are their CC effects, not the extra damage.

ryoldschool wrote...

I wonder about the range calculation in Kronner's example.  I posted a PM to Eric ****nan ( have not heard back yet).  If the 2x multiplier also applies to the ammo damage then it would make about a 20% effect in the calc example.  Its not clear in the gameplay thread exactly how the range multiplier works ( also how the Soldier AR works - it might multiply the entire damage by the 140%).  There is no doubt that the ammo effect ( and Miranda passive and armor bonuses ) is greatest at the beginning of the game before the weapon upgrades dwarf their effect.

Let's hope the devs will finally enlighten us how to calculated ammo damage. We can only guess based on experience right now, but it's hard to determine the difference between a 10 or 20 % increase in-game. You know when someone in a vid has researched the +50% shield/barrier SG upgrade, for example. But it's impossible to see if someone has 3 or 4 shotgun upgrades. I only know that late-game the extra damage you'll receive from ammo powers is pretty small, whether it adds 10 or 20% damage I dunno.

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 12 décembre 2010 - 08:19 .

[TexasToast712]

Cypher0020 wrote...

I don't have that incisor dlc.... sounds awesome though....anyone wanna give me a code LOL

ok can someone give me a list of the SR upgrades? I just stumble upon these during the game....

Oh... and in NG+.... do you keep or lose all the upgrades?

I have the firepower pack so I took Assault Rifle Training and use the Mattock. All it is a Viper without a scope that sounds better and does more damage.

This is my ultimate formula I used for my Vanguard on insanity.

Heavy Charge
Heavy Shockwave
Heavy Pull
Destroyer
Heavy Warp Ammo
Geth Shotgun
Mattock
Phalanx
Locust

=Everythings a joke

My Shepard is a Biotic who loves his guns and has honed his biotic abilities to increase his ammo damage (Warp ammo)

I just wish I could have the Revenant on my Vanguard as I dislike the soldier because of all the damn weapons on his back.

[ryoldschool]

Eric said he will post here shortly

[Eric Fagnan]

Distance multipliers for weapons multiply the final damage number with all upgrades. So shotguns will do x2 of the total damage at a very close range.



Adrenaline Rush behaves the same way; it multiplies the total weapon damage you do.



Keep in mind that ammo powers are still a completely separate damage call. Adrenaline Rush does not affect ammo power damage. Ammo powers are considered a power, so they get bonuses from power upgrades, not weapon upgrades, and they always take their initial damage value from the base weapon damage without upgrades. It's worth noting that ammo powers do get a distance multiplier like weapons. This was done to keep ammo power damage consistent, so when we say that an ammo power does X% of weapon damage, that is true for any range because it shares the distance multiplier of the weapon.



I'll add this to the gameplay thread.

[Simbacca]

Eric ****nan wrote...

...Ammo powers are considered a power, so they get bonuses from power upgrades, not weapon upgrades...

And yet, since there are no combat power damage upgrades (only biotic power and tech power damage upgrades), it's safe to say that ammo powers recevie no bonuses from any upgrades, correct?

Modifié par Simbacca, 14 décembre 2010 - 06:00 .

[Kronner]

Eric ****nan wrote...

Distance multipliers for weapons multiply the final damage number with all upgrades. So shotguns will do x2 of the total damage at a very close range.

Adrenaline Rush behaves the same way; it multiplies the total weapon damage you do.

Keep in mind that ammo powers are still a completely separate damage call. Adrenaline Rush does not affect ammo power damage. Ammo powers are considered a power, so they get bonuses from power upgrades, not weapon upgrades, and they always take their initial damage value from the base weapon damage without upgrades. It's worth noting that ammo powers do get a distance multiplier like weapons. This was done to keep ammo power damage consistent, so when we say that an ammo power does X% of weapon damage, that is true for any range because it shares the distance multiplier of the weapon.

I'll add this to the gameplay thread.

Good to know, thanks for the information.

What about a Sniper Rifle headshot, do ammo powers benefit from that as well?

Simbacca wrote...

And
yet, since there are no combat power damage upgrades (only biotic power
and tech power damage upgrades), it's safe to say that ammo powers
recevie no bonuses from any upgrades, correct?

+Power damage (armor gear, class passive) should improve ammo powers..

[ryoldschool]

Eric ****nan wrote...

Distance multipliers for weapons multiply the final damage number with all upgrades. So shotguns will do x2 of the total damage at a very close range.

Adrenaline Rush behaves the same way; it multiplies the total weapon damage you do.

Keep in mind that ammo powers are still a completely separate damage call. Adrenaline Rush does not affect ammo power damage. Ammo powers are considered a power, so they get bonuses from power upgrades, not weapon upgrades, and they always take their initial damage value from the base weapon damage without upgrades. It's worth noting that ammo powers do get a distance multiplier like weapons. This was done to keep ammo power damage consistent, so when we say that an ammo power does X% of weapon damage, that is true for any range because it shares the distance multiplier of the weapon.

I'll add this to the gameplay thread.

This is great info, and from a programmers standpoint it makes the calculation easier.  So, in Kronner's example about the Claymore a couple of posts up, the difference that incendary ammo makes is 20% not 10%, because it gets the distance multiplier also.

No doubt now that Soldier AR is the most powerful effect in the game.

[Kronner]

ryoldschool wrote...

This is great info, and from a programmers standpoint it makes the calculation easier.  So, in Kronner's example about the Claymore a couple of posts up, the difference that incendary ammo makes is 20% not 10%, because it gets the distance multiplier also.

Yes, would be nice if a dev could confirm the example below.

Example:
Claymore+Inferno Ammo point blank anti-armor shot:

Base damage = 400

Weapon damage bonuses:
+15% class passive
+15% armor
+15% Miranda
+60% shotgun damage upgrades
+105% overall

Anti-armor modifier: 1.25
Point blank shot modifier: 2

Damage
passives * base damage * defense modifier * distance modifier
= (1+0.15+0.15+0.15+0.6)*400*1.25*2
= 2.05*400*1.25*2 = 2050 damage

Inferno Ammo call
0.6*Base damage*distance modifier
= 0.6*400*2=480

Overall damage per shot
2050 + 480 = 2530

Modifié par Kronner, 14 décembre 2010 - 06:36 .

[ryoldschool]

Here are a couple of calculations showing how powerful AR is



Widow Calculation, headshot on armored enemy, using heightened AR



( 368.3 base damage ) * ( additive modifiers ) * ( 1.5 armor damage of widow ) * 2.4 + ( 368.3 base damage ) * ( 0.6 inferno ammo )



Additive Modifiers

------------------

1.00 The weapon itself

0.15 Miranda

0.11 Armor pieces weapon damage

0.15 Soldier Passive

0.50 Armor Piercing upgrade ( after two SR upgrades )

0.50 Headshot Upgrade ( after three SR upgrades )

0.60 Six SR upgrades

-----------------

3.01



Total Damage = ( 368.3 * 3.01 ) * 1.50 * 2.4 + 368.3 * 0.6

Total Damage = 3,991 + 221

Total Damage = 4,212



Somewhere in there you can add 10% of something for using the 10% visor you can buy on Omega, but I'm not sure that it matters.



This same soldier using the Claymore would get ( from Kronner's example ) 2050 * 2.4 + 480 = 5,400 per shot.

[Bozorgmehr]

Interesting. So we now know ammo powers work in a unique way with their own damage and distance bonuses. I think Kronner and ryoldschool's examples are correct, but the only thing I don't understand is how it works against multiple defense layers.

Eric ****nan wrote...

"Because the ammo power does the damage call before the weapon does its regular damage, using an ammo
power against the wrong resistance type can totally negate its damage. For example, if you use Armor Piercing Ammo or Incendiary Ammo against an enemy that has a single point of energy shields, your ammo power's damage will have no effect, even though your weapon's regular damage will take down the shields afterward. Ammo powers do not make 2 damage calls.

Additional effects like Disruptor Ammo's "stun robots" or "overheat weapons" only apply if the target no longer has resistances. So even if you are using Disruptor Ammo against energy shields, the shields must be completely off before the target can be stunned or overheated. "

Optimystic_X wrote...

So let me see if I can clarify what is going on here:

1) The damage bonus on ammo powers is negated completely if used against the wrong defense, regardless of how weak that defense is. For example, against an enemy with both shields and armor (e.g. a YMIR Mech),
removing its shields with AP ammo will cause none of the AP damage bonus for that shot to carry through to the Mech's armor, even if the Mech only had 1 point of shields remaining.

2) Defenses must be completely removed before secondary effects can be applied, e.g. Disruptor Ammo's overheat and Cryo Ammo's freeze. Combined with the first point, that means that damage to a shielded enemy will never apply secondary effects, even if the damage from that shot is strong enough to remove the last bit of their defenses and spill over to their "red health."

Are those two points correct under the clarification?

Eric ****nan wrote...

Both your points are correct.

So far, so good, but what happens shooting shielded enemies using Disruptor Ammo? If the shot gets through to  their health bar, how does Disruptor Ammo's extra damage work? It should only affect shields not health.

We know that using an ammo power against the wrong resistance type totally negates it, but if the call is made before weapon damage, does that mean the extra damage is applied to target's health too, or is weapon damage divided between shield and health damage and Disruptor Ammo's bonus only uses the appropriate value needed to destroy the shield?

[edit] Source quotes : social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/261/index/4569298/1

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 14 décembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Cossack72]

Cra5y Pineapple wrote...

The Viper is pure sex. 'Nuff said.

Not to be disrespectful to those doing the weapon calculations above, but I'd say this summarizes things nicely

[ryoldschool]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Interesting. So we now know ammo powers work in a unique way with their own damage and distance bonuses. I think Kronner and ryoldschool's examples are correct, but the only thing I don't understand is how it works against multiple defense layers.

Eric ****nan wrote...

"Because the ammo power does the damage call before the weapon does its regular damage, using an ammo
power against the wrong resistance type can totally negate its damage. For example, if you use Armor Piercing Ammo or Incendiary Ammo against an enemy that has a single point of energy shields, your ammo power's damage will have no effect, even though your weapon's regular damage will take down the shields afterward. Ammo powers do not make 2 damage calls.

Additional effects like Disruptor Ammo's "stun robots" or "overheat weapons" only apply if the target no longer has resistances. So even if you are using Disruptor Ammo against energy shields, the shields must be completely off before the target can be stunned or overheated. "

Optimystic_X wrote...

So let me see if I can clarify what is going on here:

1) The damage bonus on ammo powers is negated completely if used against the wrong defense, regardless of how weak that defense is. For example, against an enemy with both shields and armor (e.g. a YMIR Mech),
removing its shields with AP ammo will cause none of the AP damage bonus for that shot to carry through to the Mech's armor, even if the Mech only had 1 point of shields remaining.

2) Defenses must be completely removed before secondary effects can be applied, e.g. Disruptor Ammo's overheat and Cryo Ammo's freeze. Combined with the first point, that means that damage to a shielded enemy will never apply secondary effects, even if the damage from that shot is strong enough to remove the last bit of their defenses and spill over to their "red health."

Are those two points correct under the clarification?

Eric ****nan wrote...

Both your points are correct.

So far, so good, but what happens shooting shielded enemies using Disruptor Ammo? If the shot gets through to  their health bar, how does Disruptor Ammo's extra damage work? It should only affect shields not health.

We know that using an ammo power against the wrong resistance type totally negates it, but if the call is made before weapon damage, does that mean the extra damage is applied to target's health too, or is weapon damage divided between shield and health damage and Disruptor Ammo's bonus only uses the appropriate value needed to destroy the shield?

[edit] Source quotes : social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/261/index/4569298/1

Thats a good point.  Based on what happened with their design on damage to defenses ( go or no-go depending on if there was just a drop of resistant defense left vs the ammo power )  I would guess that the damage goes thru to the next layer.  Its hard to figure out  by looking at the amount the bar goes down with something like a heavy mech with shields and then armor then health.

If they would not add to the complexity for the go/no-go calculation I don't think they would worry about the case you presented.

[Bozorgmehr]

ryoldschool wrote...

Thats a good point.  Based on what happened with their design on damage to defenses ( go or no-go depending on if there was just a drop of resistant defense left vs the ammo power )  I would guess that the damage goes thru to the next layer.  Its hard to figure out  by looking at the amount the bar goes down with something like a heavy mech with shields and then armor then health.

If they would not add to the complexity for the go/no-go calculation I don't think they would worry about the case you presented.

What's got me confused is Christina's original reply:

"Christina Norman
7:32 AM 2010-08-25
Bonuses apply based on damage dealt to the resistance.

So lets say I have an ammo power that increases damage to armor by 25%, damage to health by 50% on organics, and has a chance of stunning organics. I shoot someone for 200 damage who has 100 armor and 500 health.

Damage versus armor is up to 250. He only has 100 armor, leaving 150 scaled up damage that falls through. We scale this damage back down (divide by 1.25) resulting in 120 base damage to be applied to health.

But we get a 50% bonus to damage to health, so we scale it back up to 180 (120 x 1.5), leaving the target with 320 health.

Because we apply damage to health, and this ammo power has a chance of stunning organics when damage is applied to health, they have a chance of being stunned.

Hope that clarifies.

Neofelis Nebulosa
7:47 AM 2010-08-25
Okay, so ammo power have a seperate damage call for each different defense. That should translate into Armor Piercing Ammo dealing extra damage against Armor/Health even if the first defence it hit was Shields or Barrier, I just repeat so there will be no misunderstanding:
-I shoot a Collector for 400 damage and it got 300 Points Barrier and 200 Health
-I deal 400 Damage against the Barrier not getting boni due to Tungsten Ammo (+70% Damage vs Armor/Health) trasferring 100 points damage to deal against Health
-Due to Tungsten Ammo, I deal 170 Damage against health

Unless I misunderstood something, in which case I would be grateful for you correcting me, I'd like to ask whether I can post this on the forums as a similar topic already exists, though it does not contain this specific information.

Thank you

Neofelis Nebulosa

Christina Norman
8:59 AM 2010-08-25

In short, every Ammo Power has a seperate Damage Call each time it hits another Defence and forgoing Defences an Ammo Power was not good against (Barrier/Shields vs AP-Ammo) do not mean it will have no effect, the damage not absorbed will still benefit from boni against other defences should the damage transfer into their realms!

Hope this settles the debate once and for all."

Eric ****nan wrote...

Unfortunately, the information Christina posted is incorrect. Her explanation matched our original design, but we decided to go with a different design later in the project. I've posted some information in the gameplay data thread that should clear things up. I've also included the new information below.

Christina mentions two things; (1) ammo powers work against multiple layers and (2) they work regardless if the first layer is 'wrong' (AP Ammo's effect does work against enemy health even though they had some barrier left - barrier + health damage shot). Later, Eric explains that using an ammo power against the wrong resistance type has no effect whatsoever, but it isn't clear how it works against multiple types. Are both Christina's points invalid or only the latter?

Modifié par Bozorgmehr, 14 décembre 2010 - 11:17 .

[ryoldschool]

@Bozorgmehr, I just sent your last post to Eric, maybe he can sort it out for us.

[Bozorgmehr]

Great, looking forward to his reply.

[ryoldschool]

I'll post his reply when I get to a PC about 1 hr

[ryoldschool]

He said he updated the gameplay thread.

[ryoldschool]

This is what Eric said in response to Bozorgmehr's post.



"If I'm reading your message correctly, the answer to your question is that ammo powers do nothing if they are used against the wrong resistance type. If they are used against the right resistance type and there is damage remaining, it passes through to the next defense.



I've added a short line to the gameplay thread about this."



I think this is what he added to the gameplay thread, under the Ammo Powers part:



"If the ammo power does go through the first resistance, like Armor Piercing Ammo hitting armor, and there is damage left, it passes through to the next defense.



Additional effects like Disruptor Ammo's "stun robots" or "overheat weapons" only apply if the target no longer has resistances. So even if you are using Disruptor Ammo against energy shields, the shields must be completely off before the target can be stunned or overheated. "

[Praetor Knight]

Awesome.

[Bozorgmehr]

Great info, thanks Eric and ryoldschool!

Eric ****nan wrote...

If the initial regular weapon damage is 100 against a target with shields, then:
With Disruptor Ammo rank 1, you do an additional 20 damage to shields. If any of this damage passes through to health, it is negated (unless hitting a synthetic enemy) since this ammo power does nothing to health.

Thus Disruptor Ammo's extra damage only applies to shields/synthetics. If it gets through shield and damaging organic enemies' health, bonus is negated if weapon used would have destroyed shield without Disruptor Ammo anyway.

If the ammo power does go through the first resistance, like Armor Piercing Ammo hitting armor, and there is damage left, it passes through to the next defense.

Damage passes through:
- Disruptor Ammo - -  Shields >> Synthetics
- Incediary Ammo - - Armor >> Organics
- Armor Piercing Ammo - - Armor >> Synthetics & Organics
- Warp Ammo - - Barrier >> Armor / Barrier >> Synthetics & Organics / Armor >> Synthetics & Organics

Additional effects don't pass through (no panic, freeze, overheat)

Thanks for clearing this up

[RiouHotaru]

I wouldn't say AR is the most powerful effect. I could argue that, as an Infiltrator, if I abuse my Time Dilation effect with the Viper, I can get a consistently faster RoF than you can trying to spam AR over and over again. From a pure DPS standpoint your AR might do more damage, but I can put out quite a few more shots than you.

[ryoldschool]

RiouHotaru wrote...

I wouldn't say AR is the most powerful effect. I could argue that, as an Infiltrator, if I abuse my Time Dilation effect with the Viper, I can get a consistently faster RoF than you can trying to spam AR over and over again. From a pure DPS standpoint your AR might do more damage, but I can put out quite a few more shots than you.

Just take a look at Sinosleep's weapon comparison thread.

http://social.biowar.../index/4696232/

Mattock with AR - give it a try.