226 réponses à ce sujet

[AmstradHero]

Alcanazar wrote...
I've used a number of modifications but the last ones made the game unplayable. Alister disappeared, characters
transitioned into limbo areas or characters could not be created. I  just reinstalled the game for the third time two weeks ago and I still can't get even Bioware DLC back.

In that case I would contact the author(s) of the mod(s) directly and detail your problems with them.  That said, if you've reinstalled the game entirely, I don't understand how you could still be having problems because of the mods - they should be gone. Check your My Documents\\\\BioWare\\\\Dragon Age\\\\AddIns folder - you should probably only see folders beginning with "dao_" - if you don't you haven't removed the mods. If you don't see any folders in there... then you haven't re-downloaded your official DAO DLCs.

Darkhour wrote...
That's why I'm apprehensive about mods.  I don;t know the technical skill of the modders and don't really trust them.  Not only could a mod destablize the game, but couldn't hacker install trojans, worms, etc. in the mod files?

As Glaucon said, mod sites do scan uploaded files. In addition, let's get slightly technical to indicate why this can't happen for DA:O mods. The media in general does not understand the technical concepts behind hacking and thus spreads a lot of scaremongering about "your computer will be hacked" in ways that simply aren't possible. Yes, you can get hacked quite easily in some circumstances, but in other ways it's practically impossible.

Dragon Age mods will not harm your computer. In order for a virus/trojan/worm to hack your computer, the hacker has to be able to run a program on your computer. Dragon Age mods cannot do this, as they should contain only data files that can only be read by Dragon Age itself. These are files that contain dialogue, sound, music, levels or other resources that can only be utilised by Dragon Age - meaning that outside of the game, they do nothing.

DAZIP files are Dragon Age zip files. A zip file is simply a file format used to store and compress a group of files so they take up less space - this makes it easier for people to download/store them. If you are using a dazip file, you will run the da_updater program within Dragon Age's bin_ship folder.  Unfortunately this is not accessible via the splash screen or even the start menu folder - which I think is a bad idea as it immediately makes players less likely to use mods.  When you run this program, you will need to selected the dazip for the content you wish to install, and then get the updater to install it.

When you do this, there is no program that has been written by the modder that is run on your computer except BioWare's own tool. The updater is simply taking the files from their compressed state in the DAZIP and placing them into the correct location into your My Documents\\\\BioWare\\\\Dragon Age folder.

If a mod if distributed via an ordinary zip file, then the above effectively applies as well - all you're doing is removing the files inside and playing them somewhere within the My Documents\\\\BioWare\\\\Dragon Age folder so that they can be read by the game.

Glaucon wrote...
I take your point about a mod breaking game features but that is just the nature of programming.  I can't think of many games that are released bug free, it's just not practical/feasible a lot of the time.

I've seen the AMQC group discussions and there are efforts to provide a standard but policing that standard, and who ultimately should police it, seems to be a major factor contributing to the variety of mods/files/installs/Uninstalls/Save Games/ and all the other things that a mod can impact on.

Perhaps the right thing to do is to leave the technical aspects out of the FAQ but continue to work toward standards.

Many modders are happy to deal with bugs if they are contacted about them. I know if anyone finds a bug in any of my mods that has been released, then I immediately set myself the task of tracking it down, replicating it, and eliminating it. I take the quality of my mods seriously, and don't like to see them available to people with flaws - especially not game-breaking ones.

A mod shouldn't impact on save games, because in general I think they should not be changing plot flags (which track the state of the game) in ways that will cause them to be unreliable.  This of course goes out the window if you're using a mod which deliberately breaks the internal logic of the game - for example a mod which allows you to simultaneous romance every character is messing with the game's state because it's getting those plot flags into a state that they shouldn't be.

The main problem in terms of conflicts with mods is when two separate mods try to modify the same resource(s). Two mods to facial features, for example, or two mods which make modifications to Alistair's/Zevran's/whoever's dialogue. These can potentially conflict, causing one of the mods to "break". In some cases this might result in the player simply missing out on content, in others it prevent a quest from finishing because a particular plot flag is never set.

Unfortuately it's impossible to completely devoid the process of installing/using mods from any technical detail whatsoever - for starters there's the issue of the player having to hunt down the da_updater.exe program in their bin_ship directory in which the Dragon Age game installed (usually Program Files/BioWare/Dragon Age). The only way around this is if the proposed idea of allowing mods to be downloaded directly from within the game is implemented by BioWare. I'm hopeful that this will happen at some point, but until that time, it seems modders are fighting an uphill battle to get players to try out the content that they create.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 18 décembre 2010 - 10:10 .

[Phoenix_Jackson]

Here's my story:



I got the game, started with no knowledge about most of it but it was quite okay. I got stuck on an early part unable to kill the first boss... for about 15 reloads. Frustrated, went online and googled "dragon age walkthrough" and end up with some cheat moves... but only for consoles. So I added "PC" on the search and read about "typing in runscripts". I familiarized myself with only some of the commands and closed that page (because some of them are seriously total abuse). Forgot about it, forgot some commands in time, so I searched "Dragon Age runscripts" and stumbled on some Bioware forum that mentions a lot about MODs and Nexus. I'm almost at the end of Origins when I found out about this.

Second unofficial play-through, I went overboard on MODs like a starving noob of "new things", reading only 80% of them available MODs for reasons:

I don't understand their descriptions.

I don't get their instructions.

One of them even needs to use the toolset on top of the MOD.

Some of them have numerous incompatibilities with numerous MODs.

Some of them made it even more complicated by mentioning which specific files make it incompatible with other MODs... which is a long list... = search the MOD, search the files, decipher the file, do whatever to the file, to check if it indeed changed one certain line on that file = incompatible with the said MOD.

Some MODders say they want input but I read no reply at all to the 93 comments (yes I read all those comments too) asking for some info about the MOD. And yes, some are just lazy questions but some are valid ones.

Some MODs say it's a WIP and yet I find the created and updated date the same... which was 1 year ago... this is one of my biggest complains.

Some MODders are condescending. "If you don't know how to find this and that, then don't use this MOD."



...

It's not that MODs are that complicated. I'm ancient, a hermit, haven't played computer games since... 1989 (I think), not a techy, and definitely a newb. Some MODders say, "use DAMModder" so I searched and got that thingy. It's not difficult if people read and search rather than just sit in front of the monitor and ask things to magically appear.

But then I understand most of the issues. I went through a lot of reading and by luck found out about MODs... then more reading.

It was worth it, though. I love some MODs so much, even though its abandoned by the creator, I try to endorse it as much as I can. I'm on my "official" 3rd run now, where I decide to use some MOD specializations for my uber modded class for a modded race on a modded enviromnet and modded atmosphere with some modded allies (no modded dialogue... not compatible) and will go through modded missions (just some ... not compatible) and wear modded clothes (aesthetics). I can sleep well tonight.

[AmstradHero]

I'm glad to hear you persevered despite some initial setbacks, but I'm sorry to hear that you had less than pleasant experiences dealing with modders. I don't consider a player having difficulties with installing/playing a mod to be an acceptable excuse for rudeness. I'm also shocked that a mod requires the player to use the toolset - I'll be honest and say I consider that quite unreasonable.



Hearing "success" stories of players who have happily adopted mods after some initial problems or trepidation is always welcome.



I will also add that the issue about the created and updated date of a mod's project page being exactly the same is a problem with the BioWare social site - and not anything to do with the modder or their mod. Finally, as a modder, I'll say that I read through every single comment and discussion posted on my mods - I take the time to reply to any questions or issues that might be raised, and I take suggestions on-board for any updates or future mods I work on. Yes, modders are here for themselves, but I consider that we should also be here for the players - if not, why are we making mods?

[BelgarathMTH]

I think the mod Phoenix is talking about that requires toolset knowledge and use is the utility that is supposed to help you change your appearance ("head morph") in a saved, in-progress game, something I'd love to be able to do. It is so obtuse and lacking in well-written technical instruction that I had to throw up my hands and give up on using it.



I use lots of mods, which has required a lot of effort and messing around in my game folders.



I got DAUpdater, and then discovered how wonderfully easy it is to use, and then learned that only a small percentage of modders use dazip files. I would say that more than three fourths of mods require you to do very tricky file extractions into your override folder, which has the most ridiculous path navigation I've ever seen in a game. Mydocuments/bioware/dragonage/packages/core/override? Come on, that's SIX folders in the path! I find it absurdly inconvenient to do all that clicking to extract something.



That's not even getting into the fact that a noob to modding games, which I was a few years ago, has to learn about file compression files (.zip, .rar) and file compression utilities. (WinRar, etc.). And WinRar is NOT free, or at least it wasn't back when I bought my disk and license. They will give you a trial period and then it stops working unless you pay them.



All that criticism aside, though, mods enhance my enjoyment of all my games so much, that I have found it absolutely worth it to go through the necessary learning curve. But that was one heck of a learning curve, and I think it's probably the number one biggest reason people who don't use mods don't want to.

[BelgarathMTH]

Glaucon wrote...

I've always managed to use 7zip. It's free and supports many file formats. Maybe Moders should use a common file compression format too?

I think they should all use .dazip. DAUpdater comes free with the game and is so easy to use, it would take a lot of the technical work out of the process for new mod users. Unfortunately, as I said, most of them still aren't using it.

[BelgarathMTH]

BTW - I followed a link by Phoenix in another thread, and found a second headmorph utility that was extremely easy to use, and I just changed my appearance for the first time in a saved game. Yay! Thanks, Phoenix.

[Faust1979]

 I play the game on the Xbox so no mods for me but even if I did play it on the computer I wouldn't use the mods except for some of the ones that Bioware puts out themselves. 

[Thandal N'Lyman]

BioWare doesn't make "mods". When we're talking mods wer're talking community-developed "modifications" of the game. BioWare produces "modules".

[AmstradHero]

Faust1979 wrote...

 I play the game on the Xbox so no mods for me but even if I did play it on the computer I wouldn't use the mods except for some of the ones that Bioware puts out themselves. 

People like you are exactly why I created this thread. Please, help me out here.
Why would you not use anything created by modders?
What could I, as a modder, do to convince you to try out my user made mods/adventures?

[ladydesire]

BelgarathMTH wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

I've always managed to use 7zip. It's free and supports many file formats. Maybe Moders should use a common file compression format too?

I think they should all use .dazip. DAUpdater comes free with the game and is so easy to use, it would take a lot of the technical work out of the process for new mod users. Unfortunately, as I said, most of them still aren't using it.

I suspect many don't use dazip because they don't know how to create them in the toolset or they think its "a stupid way to package a mod" (I've actually seen one modder say this very thing). Also, even if using dazip, there are time when 7zip and WinRAR have to be used as a wrapper for the dazip; there are a number of mods that are in excess of the file upload size limits on DA Nexus, so they have to be split using a wrapper file like that.

[Phoenix_Jackson]

 Knowing that someone did use a MOD I advertised makes me feel, I'm doing a good job.  Thank you.
Let's see...  if I happen to stumble upon an instruction like this: 

• Download the first file.
• Use 7zip to extract the DAZip.
• Install using DAModder or DA ModManager.  DAUpdater seem to create some installation problems.
• Download the second file.
• Extract it on a new folder, depending what options you want.  It is better to put them all directly to your override.
• In the folder there are 4 folders.  Do not touch the first folder unless you know what you are doing.
• If you want the (let's name it) N MOD, open the fourth folder (BOOM!  Looooong list of files!) and copy the abcdef.gda to *folder/folder/folder/folder/folder/overide* where the MOD addin is installed.
• Note: Make sure that no other MODs have the xyze.mor or there will be chances that the game will break.
• In folder three, copy the first three .ini files and paste it to folder two.  Overwrite.
• If you want it to work for DAA, open phita.xml on the second folder with notepad.  Change all lines that say "Me=Noob1" to "Me=Noob9".  An easier way to do this is to use ctrl+h.  Now copy from [additem=something] down to [additem] and paste right below it.  Then change the 6th line to "boonisnotanoob=singlecharacter".
• This MOD will only work on a new run or a save before meeting the Ash Warriors.
• Enjoy!

At number three, I'd start to get nervous.  But I'll read on.  And it gets worse when I go to "Compatibility" section.  In this case, I'd start reading the comments to see if the trouble is all worth it.  Maybe I'll try it.  It's a good feeling if I get to tackle such work.  But the above is just an example of a complex instruction-- that I can understand.  But are other players as forgiving as I?  How about if the instructions are written vaguely?  And you know what?  Such instructions exist!

It's not that I do not use  MODs.  It's that I will "drop" particular MODs.  My biggest peeve is voice acting.  After all the instructions above, I get surrounded by NPC with a mermaid accent or something.  I'll take no voice any day.  I understand that it's hard to get voice actors or voice actors who can talk as fluid as the ones chosen by Bioware.  But it is just me personally.  I hate bad voice acting.

I mentioned that I give chances and read most of the MODs in Nexus.  But there are some that would make me think, "Mmmm... looks delicious.":

• Mysterious title
• Lots of clear and big images
• Atleast 1 demo video
• A devoted website.  Whether its the creator(s), instructions, faqs, discussion boards, etc.
• Public endorsements... and not just the "thumbs up" on Nexus.
• Lesser tech talk
• and a well written description (some of them have "..." and nothing more.  I don't get it)

[Elhanan]

I do use mods, though I have yet to choose any modules as I still enjoy the original story. But I am Techless, and require easy to follow directions to install any mod. This goes for any installation; little should be taken for granted for instructions.

Also I am wary of signing up to register at all sites, so currently I am limited to certain file limits for downloads.

[TMZuk]

AmstradHero wrote...

This is a fairly simple question to all (PC) players who don't use mods:

Why don't you use mods?  What is that makes you not use them?

Also, and this is perhaps more important from my perspective, what would make you start using them and playing them? What can modders do to make their work more appealing and convince you to download it?

Edit: In addition, these questions also apply to modules that add extra playable content - e.g. quest/companion add-ins to the main campaign and standalone campaigns.

I use several mods, but regarding those you mention in your edit, quest/companion and add-ons, I am very picky.

They have to fit in the main campaign seamlessly, and keep the overall feel and atmosphere intact. I did like your Alley of Murders add-on better than most, but still, it felt somewhat "off", in comparison with the original game.

One thing especially I dislike is the poor writing, and the awful, amateurish voice-acting that plagues so many mods. Not only is the acting toe-crigingly poor, but the recording quality is also appalling. Better, far better to just use plain text. I believe you were also one of those involved in Dark Times? That's an interesting and very ambitious project, but unfortunately poor quality testing, mediocre writing, and especially the ~horrible~ VA, really puts me off, sorry.

Note: With writing I do not refer to the overall plotline of a mod, but the individual lines presented to you by NPC's and the replies my character can offer.

In my opinion, modders are often technically very proficient, but are utterly disregarding or not realising the nescessity for writing and acting to be at least on par with the coding.

Of Noble Birth, a simple mod that gives the Cousland character some more fitting starting equipment and clothes, without overdoing it, was great. So was the Alistair Epilogue, with the wedding scene. Simple, atmospheric and fitting in seamlessly.

An impressive stand alone mod was Baldur's Gate 2 Redux, and I hope those guys can keep it up; the workload must be terrifying. But they also have the advantage that all the writing is already done, and is extremely high quality.

Modifié par TMZuk, 20 décembre 2010 - 11:10 .

[BelgarathMTH]

@Phoenix: Your lampoon of obtuse mod instructions that put off users is hilarious! You have a talent for writing satire.



ROFL

[Thandal N'Lyman]

As soon as anyone starts telling modders ...

"You have to use THIS process."  Or, "You have to include THESE documents."  Or, "You can't post your mod here unless it follows a whole lot of rules about making it easy enough for even a total noob to use, just as if it were a commercial software product that the user were paying for, rather than a freely distributed labour of love that was created out of personal interest and is provided so that others might (if they care to) enjoy it as well."

... then you spell the death of a thriving modding ecosystem. 

Some modders will do all the things asked by various people here in this thread.  Some won't.  Most will do most of them.  Some won't do any of them. 

You want to ensure ease of installation and total compatibility, plus expect support if that doesn't happen?   Pay for your software!  You want to see how someone with a bit of talent, a bit of knowledge, and a whole lot of love can build upon a foundation to create even more fun/action/beauty?  Then make back-ups, learn how your game works with mods, and explore, experiment, learn, grow!  No one is required to use Community-developed mods to play the game.

Modifié par Thandal NLyman, 20 décembre 2010 - 06:18 .

[mousestalker]

Most modders are very nice people. If you ask them politely to do something, if it isn't too much trouble, they generally do it.



For example:



"Dear Modder,



I'd love to install your mod of the PCWarden and Zevran's wedding, but I can not figure out how to install it properly. I'm not able to follow your instructions as DAmodwizard is no longer available. Is there a way to use DAModgod instead?"



I've had enormous success with such requests. Others have as well.

[Thandal N'Lyman]

mousestalker wrote...

Most modders are very nice people. If you ask them politely to do something, if it isn't too much trouble, they generally do it.

For example:

"Dear Modder,

I'd love to install your mod of the PCWarden and Zevran's wedding, but I can not figure out how to install it properly. I'm not able to follow your instructions as DAmodwizard is no longer available. Is there a way to use DAModgod instead?"

I've had enormous success with such requests. Others have as well.

Exactly!  Most are nice.  And most want people to be able to use their mods.  But as soon as people feel entitled to complain because they can't get the mod to install/act/be explained to them the way THEY feel it should be, the freely given effort and good-will of modders dries up.  Have you SEEN  the kind of abuse and personal attacks that modders receive on some sites because a user didn't like/couldn't figure out something?!?

And as soon as any hosting site starts enforcing rules about how "good' the mod and it's accompanying documentation, installation routine, troubleshooting, on-going support has  to be, the site stops receiving mods.

SAFE (e.g. no malware) and LEGAL (e,g, no copyright violations or child porn) are about the only "rules' that can or, (in my opinion) should be imposed.

Modifié par Thandal NLyman, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:29 .

[Thandal N'Lyman]

To the OP's question (from one who has had to learn how to use DA mods from scratch),
What makes me select one mod over another, or ignore one completely? Well, I need:

1. A title that at least relates to the content or impact/effect of using it.
2. The complete install instructions "up front". They can even be VERY complicated (e.g. the "Potion of Transformation" for DA) but I have to be able to find them easily. (And, of course, read/understand them. If I can't figure it out in one scan, I better really, really want the mod!)
3. A list of any "addtionally required mods" or the "minimum patch version".   I decide NOT to install many mods that otherwse might be attractive because I don't want all the other baggage.
4. If the mod primarily affects the appearance of things in-game, at least a few screenshots that highlight the changes/improvements.

As stated above, I don't expect every mod to have these things, and have used many that don't. But that's what I look for first.

Modifié par Thandal NLyman, 20 décembre 2010 - 07:54 .

[LadyKarrakaz]

Agreed that a video and pictures, as well as a clear readme on what is changed and the possible incompatibilities, help me a lot to decide what mods to use or not.

[AmstradHero]

TMZuk wrote...
I use several mods, but regarding those you mention in your edit, quest/companion and add-ons, I am very picky.

They have to fit in the main campaign seamlessly, and keep the overall feel and atmosphere intact. I did like your Alley of Murders add-on better than most, but still, it felt somewhat "off", in comparison with the original game.

One thing especially I dislike is the poor writing, and the awful, amateurish voice-acting that plagues so many mods. Not only is the acting toe-crigingly poor, but the recording quality is also appalling. Better, far better to just use plain text. I believe you were also one of those involved in Dark Times? That's an interesting and very ambitious project, but unfortunately poor quality testing, mediocre writing, and especially the ~horrible~ VA, really puts me off, sorry.

Note: With writing I do not refer to the overall plotline of a mod, but the individual lines presented to you by NPC's and the replies my character can offer.

In my opinion, modders are often technically very proficient, but are utterly disregarding or not realising the nescessity for writing and acting to be at least on par with the coding.

Thanks for the feedback - that kind of information is useful to know. I've spent quite a lot time reading through BioWare's dialogue trying to get a similar style of conversation as is used in Dragon Age. But I don't have the benefit of editors like a professional title.  That said, I think standalone modules should get a little more leeway in terms of their "style" - I'd argue that since they're not part of the main campaign hence don't have to conform exactly to the formula and nature of the core game.

I can't take credit for Dark Times - that's Questorion's project.  I did contribute some of my time to assist in its creation, but I did provide some feedback on design and testing (no, I didn't do as much playtesting as I would have liked, nor as much as I feel the mod deserves) and one of the VOs.  I think it's a wonderful project, and Questorion and his team deserve some serious kudos for their work and dedication. No, the voice work isn't up to professional standard across the board (either in recording or acting quality), but I don't feel that can be expected. I'll concur that I cringed at some of the VO lines, but there were plenty of others that were perfectly fine

I'd love it if modders could afford to hire even semi-professional voice actors and have lines recorded "properly", but seeing as we can't make money off our projects, we'd have to ask for donations and use that money to hire them. I can't see that happening any time soon.

That said, I don't mean to turn this into a post defending modules - I appreciate that part of the reason you're picky with quest modules is due to the quality of the writing and voice work. I know I'll do what I can to ensure that my mods meet a high standard in these areas as well as in the technical aspects. And that was my aim in creating this thread - to identify reasons why mod/modules aren't used by players and the potential means to address those issues.

[Phoenix_Jackson]

I'd have to agree that stand-alone modules may differ a little from the main story. It's like, "Here's a mini-game I made! It's not DA, but it's where I got my inspiration!" I support that. It's like a step to making a whole separate game... I like helping people take little steps.

May I say this:

The DA community and fans are filled with people of vast talent and knowledge outside the field of DA. Most of them are generous enough to share a little time and small effort to help. And with you(OP) who already have a good reputation with MODs, I'm sure you have your own followers. Let them help you out on fields you think need more polishing. Who knows? There might be a good script/monologue writer out there. Or one who can provide with voices and the like. All you have to do is ask, make an audition, and maybe people will chip-in just for fun.

Modifié par Phoenix_Jackson, 21 décembre 2010 - 03:35 .

[Hallusinaatti]

I use only a small selection of mods. They are mostly fixes, with a single armor mod which I use only late-game to avoid the feeling of cheating. I do my best to fight the bad guys with purely vanilla stuff.