226 réponses à ce sujet

[Proleric]

With respect, we seem to be going way off-topic.

Questions about specific mods are more likely to be answered if they're raised on the Discussions tab of the mod itself.

Similarly, an RFI has a better chance of response if raised as a separate forum thread with a clear title.

Back on topic, the very useful feedback in this thread about barriers to using mods has been taken on board. Thandal NLyman set up a project which is now working on an FAQ in response.

[AngleWyrm]

I generally avoid player-made content, because it is often left unfinished, unpolished and buggy. I just looked at a module about a magician that creates a girl, where you play the girl.

In the screenshot there's a cat that's sunk halfway through the floor, and the author is explaining that he doesn't understand what went wrong, and that maybe he'll deal with the problem by doing such-and-such. Instead of you know, fixing it and showing us a screenshot of a proper cat. He then goes on to make some apologetic noises about the sound quality, hoping we can understand the voice acting -- instead of for instance making it clearly understandable.

A total turn off for me; I didn't even bother downloading it. Keep your damn bugs and half-assed effort to yourself.

Modifié par AngleWyrm, 12 janvier 2011 - 09:04 .

[AmstradHero]

AngleWyrm wrote...

I generally avoid player-made content, because it is often left unfinished, unpolished and buggy. I just looked at a module about a magician that creates a girl, where you play the girl.

In the screenshot there's a cat that's sunk halfway through the floor, and the author is explaining that he doesn't understand what went wrong, and that maybe he'll deal with the problem by doing such-and-such. Instead of you know, fixing it and showing us a screenshot of a proper cat. He then goes on to make some apologetic noises about the sound quality, hoping we can understand the voice acting -- instead of for instance making it clearly understandable.

A total turn off for me; I didn't even bother downloading it. Keep your damn bugs and half-assed effort to yourself.

I understand what you're saying here, but this is like dismissing all computer racing games because you looked at Big Rigs: Off the Road Racing. I wholeheartedly agree that mods are of varying quality, but to dismiss all mods simply because one mod was unprofessional is a little harsh on all modders.

As for screenshot errors - I could point out areas in BioWare's levels (ones that shipped with a commercial game that you paid for) where there are floating trees, object protruding incongruously from walls or the like, not to mention some of the logic errors that have caused issues for people. This from a game half a dozen years in development. Mods are free content made for players - modders may not be able to create a 100% flawless experience, but to claim that professional studios do that is a fallacy.

Can modders find a means to overcome the immediate (and possibly justified) bias against the perceived quality of mods that comes from one bad experience?

Modifié par AmstradHero, 12 janvier 2011 - 10:49 .

[Phoenix_Jackson]

Kaedah:
I just checked TWF and yes, you're right. But typing the whole name one time will make them all "spaceless". Type the first word of the intended name, then confirm, after that is the box with the "end" word. Delete that word and type the next word for the intended name. I didn't test how many words you can put in an intended name because I only made a two-word name. When you're done with the process of putting each word for each box confirmed, then don't delete the "end" on the box and just confirm it.

Sorry for my mumbling instructions but I got to pee.  If my instructions aren't satisfactory, please say so and I'll send you a PM.

Whoa!  What happened to AngelWyrm's comment?  Last time I checked it didn't have such an angry tone.  But I agree with the "unfinished" part. The rest, i could understand it... well, that's from the unedited post anyway.

Modifié par Phoenix_Jackson, 12 janvier 2011 - 01:07 .

[AngleWyrm]

AmstradHero wrote...
I understand what you're saying here, but this is like dismissing all computer racing games because you looked at Big Rigs: Off the Road Racing. I wholeheartedly agree that mods are of varying quality, but to dismiss all mods simply because one mod was unprofessional is a little harsh on all modders.

As for screenshot errors - I could point out areas in BioWare's levels (ones that shipped with a commercial game that you paid for) where there are floating trees, object protruding incongruously from walls or the like, not to mention some of the logic errors that have caused issues for people. This from a game half a dozen years in development. Mods are free content made for players - modders may not be able to create a 100% flawless experience, but to claim that professional studios do that is a fallacy.

Can modders find a means to overcome the immediate (and possibly justified) bias against the perceived quality of mods that comes from one bad experience?

You aren't seriously asking for more examples are you? Do you really need more proof?

Posting a screenshot of a glitch to your own mod and commenting on it is advertising poor quality. That is a very different thing from going through the game searching for errors and then posting a find.

It's half-baked, and that's not good enough for me. You wanna trudge through the mess and forgive the problems go right ahead. I just don't want to do that anymore. I also check game websites for rampant bug reports before I plunk down 50 bucks, because there are some studios that put out buggy games (I'm looking at you, Obsidian).

Two mods that I have enjoyed was a long story campaign about a marine in Starcraft 1, and the Eastern Sun mod for Diablo 2. Both of those were well-done and still a bunch of fun to play. But they are sadly the exception in a sea of inequity.

And that's why I don't generally play mods.

Modifié par AngleWyrm, 12 janvier 2011 - 11:36 .

[yarrum k]

On the original XBox one of the greatest drawbacks was that moddable titles could not be modded on that platform. This was very limiting for games like Morrowind. MS then promised that the new console would be able to download the best mods for a nominal fee. It made sense since the cost of distributing on line is minimal. Sadly, the ability to edit or modify XBox titles still has not materialized even though the software remans more expensive to buy.



How many mods would consolers buy if a console could get mods? Millions, I expect.

[AmstradHero]

AngleWyrm wrote...

You aren't seriously asking for more examples are you? Do you really need more proof?

No, that's not what I asked at all. I know there are plenty of mods out there that are unpolished. That goes for pretty much every game that has mods. There are Dragon Age mods that I don't use because I don't feel they meet my quality standards - but I know they meet other people's standards.

I personally put a lot of effort into making my mods look and feel professional.  I've refrained from releasing screenshots of areas until I'm happy with how they look. I test like crazy to try and remove any bugs from my work. If bugs are found, I'm working on them immediately to try and find/release a fix. A lot of the updates I did for Alley of Murders were to make certain that all the spelling and grammar was 100% perfect, aesthetic changes or modifications as a result of player feedback on rewards/gameplay balance.

AngleWyrm wrote...
You wanna trudge through the mess and forgive the problems go right ahead. I just don't want to do that anymore.

I'm not trying to make excuses for problems, but I'm attempting to explain why modding efforts aren't always up to professional standards.

More importantly, how can I (or any other modder) convince you or let you know that I'm not producing something with problems and something that isn't a mess? What would convince you that a certain mod isn't part of the "mess" but in fact worth your time?

[Naitaka]

AngleWyrm wrote...

It's half-baked, and that's not good enough for me. You wanna trudge through the mess and forgive the problems go right ahead. I just don't want to do that anymore. I also check game websites for rampant bug reports before I plunk down 50 bucks, because there are some studios that put out buggy games (I'm looking at you, Obsidian).

You do know that the amount of the bugs in Origin and Awakening is in no way less than any Obsidian game right? Not only are there tons of game stopping bugs, most of the "magical property" on items don't even work in game to this date. Penning mods in general just because some are not up to professional standard just seem acrimonious for its own sake, not to mention you can easily judge the quality of the mod in question by going through the comments exactly as how you go through game websites for review/bug reports.

Modifié par Naitaka, 13 janvier 2011 - 08:16 .

[AngleWyrm]

Which is what I did, and why I didn't download that mod.

AmstradHero wrote...
More importantly, how can I (or any other modder) convince you or let you know that I'm not producing something with problems and something that isn't a mess? What would convince you that a certain mod isn't part of the "mess" but in fact worth your time?

This is a tough question to answer, because it is basically asking "What are the signs of quality?" I find that my first attempts to answer this question are variations on the theme of  "unblemished," an answer that is to me somewhat dissatisfying. I had hoped I would have a more positive, foreground image.

So I search in this way: Imagine a room with laundry draping on the bookshelf. Now instead, imagine a room with a glass figurine of a mermaid decorating that same shelf. Both of them are a type of ornament, but one has grace, and the other has disgrace.

So what I search for when I'm deciding if this might be something I want to play with is first it must pass by the disgrace filter without setting off any alarms. There should be no obvious problems, either in the text presenting the mod, or the screenshots showing off the mod. Then if it makes it past that security system, it qualifies as a possible download. Second, I search for signs of grace, artistic touches and detailing that show flair and add a sense of "isn't this awesome?" This takes it from possible download to definitely want to check it out.

So that's as near as I can tell about how I see the question of "What are the signs of quality?"

Modifié par AngleWyrm, 13 janvier 2011 - 09:41 .

[Bahlgan]

AngleWyrm wrote...

This is a tough question to answer, because it is basically asking "What are the signs of quality?" I find that my first attempts to answer this question are variations on the theme of  "unblemished," an answer that is to me somewhat dissatisfying. I had hoped I would have a more positive, foreground image.

The best you can do is answer his question in your perspective. It's what I did. Amstrad had exclaimed he had learned much from my point of view. You can be surprised as to the wonders of taking a few minutes to explain what you as an individual think is idyllic. And yes, you need to embellish a lot more than "unblemished".

What I saw below, although well put, was more along the lines of analogous than a direct, easy-to-figure speech on your personal slice or intake on quality. Let's start off with three of the elements in the game DA for example. When looking at a mod, I consider gameplay, lore (how it can tie with what canon we DO have), and immersion. Questions that could be asked to help me understand your version of quality are:

1) In gameplay, does the amount of action dictate your opinion on a mod/event? IMHO action is a large part of the event, depending on the general theme. If it is a theme to protect a city, I expect tons of kills on my Warden's behalf. If the theme is merely to rescue a child from corrupt Dalish elves from drinking too much clamato juice, then perhaps the action might not be as high.

2) In gameplay, do you favor attacks made by your Warden to cause either explosions or decapitations of certain villains as you journey across Ferelden? Or do you not have taste for such high-end resolution, and tend to be more subtle with just simple swings of the sword to slay a body without the drastic animation of the hacking of limbs? I for one feel the messy kills feature really truly helps with immersion; makes you feel as if you just did something fashionably spectacular! Which brings me to   V

3) In immersion, do you tend to appreciate dynamic conversations? How much mercy do you show a modder for his/her errors, if you deem that person to have made any?

4) This may seem obvious at this point, but do you appreciate mods or events that synchronize with what Bioware had intended to be fulfilled in the story? Do you favor mods (while not with lore) that tend to be creative, like the werewolf class or the cleric class? Are you a fan of mods which help you customize your own Warden: armor, weapons, skills, voices, etc.. ?

Just a few questions that you should certainly give a good thought into and explain to modders such as Amstrad before criticizing mods to be a cheat as a whole, or that they're always broken.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 13 janvier 2011 - 11:39 .

[AngleWyrm]

Are you defending modders against players? That's a terrible idea. Modders don't need any protection from their audience. If they do a good job they get "Yay" and if they do a bad job they get "Boo" just as simple as that.

Also, the title of this thread is "If you don't use mods, why?"
Because a lot of them suck. That's why.

Modifié par AngleWyrm, 13 janvier 2011 - 03:08 .

[Phoenix_Jackson]

I think I get it.



A MODder posted a flaw and told users he/she will look into it. MODder instead, overlooked the said flaw and went on to making an excuse for another flaw. Perhaps showing an impression of "I don't care, deal with it!" kind of way. If that's the case, I'd be pissed myself.



I think I also get it.



It's a matter of advertising. Show the good that you got rather than show flaws and make excuses.



...

Through the pages of this thread, we've seen some players toned down their presumptions towards MODs in general. Initial reactions usually come from first impressions or the first undesired MOD that they encounter. Again, I must say, please give other MODders a chance. Filter your choices of MODs by your own standards. Let the other MODders know what those particular standards are, as it is what the OP meant (the way I understand it) to do: gather feedback from users in order to improve current MODs and/or set the criteria for future MODs, and, gather opinions from non-users in order to possibly sway them to use current and/or future creations-- and end up a happier DA player. Such events already happened with this thread alone. With positive-hopeful thoughts, the rest of the community (users or not) would join-in. So why not give other MODs a try? There'll always be bad products as it is in everything. But I think that's a good thing so there'll be something to compare the good things with, and appreciate them morel.

[Cavi]

I'm going to add this thought to the discussion, because I feel it needs to be said. I know it wasn't intended, but it's turned out to be the case:

Earlier I stated why I didn't use them, and then said after reading through the thread that I had retracted my original position for the most part. So that was that and all was well.

It seems as this thread continues, it's turned into more of a pressure situation. If someone gives you an answer and gives a reason why they don't use them, whatever the reason, there always seems to be a strongly pointed response from the modding community. It's almost Elitist in nature. Why all the pressure to use mods in the first place? Is there some incentive for you? Is playing the game "vanilla" not doing it right?

Like I said, I realize this wasn't the intention but in some instances this is how you are coming off to me. I've even found a couple mods I want to try on my next playthrough! But the answer to the question "what can we do to have you try our mods" is a bit presumptive in the first place (you're assuming there's something you can do/say to convince us to use mods). Some people just don't want to, and getting all seedy about that isn't worth it.

[kevlarcardhouse]

I've been PC gaming since around 1996, and I never use mods because I prefer just to play it with the developer's original intentions. Also, every time I've tried any mod it led to terrible results. I have a feeling people like them so much because it's something unique the PC can do so they try to paint it as some wonderful addition.

Maybe some of them are good, but like I said every time I try one I don't care for the results, not to mention many come with compatibility issues or their own bugs.  After trying them over and over again for almost 15 years, I'ld rather not bother anymore.

EDIT: By "mods" I'm not referring to "modules".  I have played a lot of decent player-made content in the Neverwinter Nights titles.  But on the same note I wouldn't install a mod that adds quests or content into the original campaign, for the same reasons mentioned above.

Modifié par kevlarcardhouse, 13 janvier 2011 - 06:12 .

[Bahlgan]

AngleWyrm wrote...

Are you defending modders against players? That's a terrible idea. Modders don't need any protection from their audience. If they do a good job they get "Yay" and if they do a bad job they get "Boo" just as simple as that.

Not necessarily. Though I do find your tone carrying out against certain modders such as Amstrad who have done so much work making mods such as the Alley to be quite offensive. Perhaps maybe you can do well to test out other mods before telling him they all suck.

Also, the title of this thread is "If you don't use mods, why?"
Because a lot of them suck. That's why.

Yes they do, many of them are extremely low quality, but not all of them are like that. Some of them are mind blowingly awesome to the point of which I would appreciate investing some of my time to help the modders make more outstanding performances.

Modifié par Bahlgan, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:02 .

[ladydesire]

kevlarcardhouse wrote...

I've been PC gaming since around 1996, and I never use mods because I prefer just to play it with the developer's original intentions. Also, every time I've tried any mod it led to terrible results. I have a feeling people like them so much because it's something unique the PC can do so they try to paint it as some wonderful addition.

Maybe some of them are good, but like I said every time I try one I don't care for the results, not to mention many come with compatibility issues or their own bugs.  After trying them over and over again for almost 15 years, I'ld rather not bother anymore.

EDIT: By "mods" I'm not referring to "modules".  I have played a lot of decent player-made content in the Neverwinter Nights titles.  But on the same note I wouldn't install a mod that adds quests or content into the original campaign, for the same reasons mentioned above.

Interesting; I've been gaming off and on for about the same length of time, and won't bother (generally speaking) even buying games that don't come with some kind of developer-provided toolset. I never found too many NWN or NWN2 modules that interested me, but spent over two years making a mod for NWN2 that expanded the choices for players that wanted more class choices than what Obsidian provided. I've done the same for DAO, and am working on other main campaign mods because that's what a lot of players want.

[AmstradHero]

Cavi wrote...
It seems as this thread continues, it's turned into more of a pressure situation. If someone gives you an answer and gives a reason why they don't use them, whatever the reason, there always seems to be a strongly pointed response from the modding community. It's almost Elitist in nature. Why all the pressure to use mods in the first place? Is there some incentive for you? Is playing the game "vanilla" not doing it right?
Like I said, I realize this wasn't the intention but in some instances this is how you are coming off to me. I've even found a couple mods I want to try on my next playthrough! But the answer to the question "what can we do to have you try our mods" is a bit presumptive in the first place (you're assuming there's something you can do/say to convince us to use mods). Some people just don't want to, and getting all seedy about that isn't worth it.

Apologies if this is how you've interpreted it. That's definitely not the intent.  It just that the people who don't use mods are the target audience and an answer of "mods are cheating" or "mods are badly written and have lots of bug" appear to show that players aren't aware of the full range of mods that are available.

But, the thing is people who don't use mods are the target audience of this thread. The thread has definitely helped identify means to help promote and advertise good mods to players who might not otherwise be interested in them. That's really what this thread is about. If people want to play the main campaign without any mods, that's fine. But I'm then interested to know if they'd consider playing standalone modules?

This isn't meant as an antagonistic thread by any means. We're asking for help from players to help us make our modules more appealing. That said, if people decry our work as "crap" because of other mods that are of low quality or don't fit with their personal views then you'll have to forgive us if we come across as slightly unhappy. Receiving harsh criticism because of the actions/work of others is a little rough.

It's more about trying to get players to elaborate on exactly what they mean. Saying "mods are bad" isn't really that helpful for modders - we need to know what it is about them.  Someone saying "I wouldn't want to modify the main campaign" or "I don't want to affect the game balance" are partially helpful, but then it's a matter of finding what (if any) types of mod/modules they might be interested in - and potentially educating players that there are possibly mods out there that match up with their desires.

More input is is greatly welcome and happily received, but it might be that we will ask for more detail or clarification on a player's opinion. Modders need (and want) to know how they can make players keen to try out their work. Many of us are not here for solely for ourselves - we're here for the players.  Without the players, there's no point in us making mods.

Modifié par AmstradHero, 14 janvier 2011 - 01:29 .

[Cavi]

Well like I alluded to, it started off innocent enough but sometimes the reaction to some of those people who simply don't want to use them is a bit presumptive. Let me be clear, I have no problem with this thread or what you're trying to do... I was simply stating my concerns as to why some people are giving the adverse reaction.



Plus, a lot of the people NOW are coming into this game brand new because of the Steam sales. So metaphorically, they just bought the new car, and a week later you're trying to sell them another one with more options.



Again, I have no problems. In fact this thread has indeed helped me. I already have a list of things I want to try (although they are mostly aesthetic). Morrigan's speech I'm going to look into as well because last night it got brutal. I was even one of those who were skeptical about the quality, but those fears have been addressed rightly here!

[Phoenix_Jackson]

I actually like Cavi's concerns.



The way I see it, both extreme reactions are understandable. A player sees and tries a MOD for the very first time and it ended up giving him/her the most difficult experience he/she ever had. So there goes the extreme reaction of "They suck! I'd never want to try any MOD ever again!" Quite normal for an angry 'customer'. But then a certain MODder heard about that rant. That MODder didn't create nor ever connected to that particular MOD the player was ranting about. I'd expect a heavy reaction too in defense of his/her own creation: "They aren't all the same! Try mine!" ... or maybe a heavy doze of prozac. Still a considerable reaction.



I don't know about cars, so please be forgiving. If there's a fully chromed car (maybe a bad example) and I think that car would look better if I just tone down that chrome a little and maybe add some yellow tints on the hood (again, I don't know about cars), I think it'd sell more. I think if I put just a little shine rather than that full mirrored chrome thingy, I think buyers would go "wow". Heck, I'd go "wiow".... and then out of 100 people who bought the same type of car, only 2 bought my "de-chromed" one. Strongly believed that I did an awesome job, I'd really wonder why people didn't like it. I personally would ask around why. I might even hunt those 98 people to ask why. What can I do to make them notice my work?



...

I think I'll stop talking now. I just want to say something and ended up sounding stupid.

[Bahlgan]

Phoenix_Jackson wrote...

I actually like Cavi's concerns.

The way I see it, both extreme reactions are understandable. A player sees and tries a MOD for the very first time and it ended up giving him/her the most difficult experience he/she ever had. So there goes the extreme reaction of "They suck! I'd never want to try any MOD ever again!" Quite normal for an angry 'customer'. But then a certain MODder heard about that rant. That MODder didn't create nor ever connected to that particular MOD the player was ranting about. I'd expect a heavy reaction too in defense of his/her own creation: "They aren't all the same! Try mine!" ... or maybe a heavy doze of prozac. Still a considerable reaction.

I don't know about cars, so please be forgiving. If there's a fully chromed car (maybe a bad example) and I think that car would look better if I just tone down that chrome a little and maybe add some yellow tints on the hood (again, I don't know about cars), I think it'd sell more. I think if I put just a little shine rather than that full mirrored chrome thingy, I think buyers would go "wow". Heck, I'd go "wiow".... and then out of 100 people who bought the same type of car, only 2 bought my "de-chromed" one. Strongly believed that I did an awesome job, I'd really wonder why people didn't like it. I personally would ask around why. I might even hunt those 98 people to ask why. What can I do to make them notice my work?

...
I think I'll stop talking now. I just want to say something and ended up sounding stupid.

No not at all, it's alright, I completely agree with you. There are the two extremist groups, and then there are others who don't bleedingly pick a side, but rather just remain silent on the matter; unable to be deciphered as one who either hates or loves.

But I DO think we have gone somewhat of topic. Key word being somewhat that is. I think we should go back to the main discussion and perhaps discuss possible "DLC" mods and ways we can improve them. Constructive criticism is always the stem of growing newer and more improved ideas.

Edit: I'll start a discussion in case anyone is interested: Let's talk about the Return to Highever and what we can do to improve it. I for one found the dialogue poor. NOT the choices, but the voices. 

Modifié par Bahlgan, 14 janvier 2011 - 07:17 .

[abaris]

AngleWyrm wrote...

Are you defending modders against players? That's a terrible idea. Modders don't need any protection from their audience. If they do a good job they get "Yay" and if they do a bad job they get "Boo" just as simple as that.

Last time I checked modders do it for free.

I don't use a lot of mods, because many of them don't meet my expectations. But I would never dream of flaming the modders, since they're investing their time into providing something for the community - for free I would stress again.

And besides, a Mabari snout protruding through my main characters chest, certain areas where the characters stick ankle deep in the floor and the likes aren't much better than your cat example. And they come with a commercial release. But I even refrain from ****ing about that because the overall product is OK.

[mousestalker]

abaris wrote...

Last time I checked modders do it for free.

No, you have to be in a committed relationship with them.

Or is that not what you meant?

[LoneFullmetal]

Cause I play the inferior console version.



Oh well, I've enjoyed the game enough Vanilla anyway.

[Merilsell]

abaris wrote...
And besides, a Mabari snout protruding through my main characters chest, certain areas where the characters stick ankle deep in the floor and the likes aren't much better than your cat example. And they come with a commercial release. But I even refrain from ****ing about that because the overall product is OK.

This.

I have played the game for a year on console, which meant no mods for me. Now I have the PC version for about a month and are able to use mods....at last. It took me a while to get the hang of it but it was worth it. Honestly with all the improving mods I have installed the game is such a difference and has (almost) the fresh air of a new game around it. Sure there are conflicting or bad made mods and you have to take care of what you are installing (that's what the "readme files are for), but I could never imagine to go back to vanilla. Alone the horrid weapon/talent FX-effects *shudder*

But to each their own, I guess.

[pegueng]

Mmmm.... quite a lot of interesting reading here.. with nothing better to do while the game are installing i read through these posts and i say... i don't use modifications mainly because so far i haven't found any worth using, for NWN1 & 2 that is but there's a great pool of modules for at least NWN 1 that are awesome.... i'll play DA for a while and let's see what's it like... (i'm ohh so excited now... lol)

Good evening to y'all