216 réponses à ce sujet

[Liablecocksman]

Evil!
I want evil companions!
Origins and Awakening didn't have any.
I want both sides of the moral conscience represented in my group of companions. I understand that there will be a few more companions than have already been announced, and I see that Isabela may fit into some (forgive the old terminology) "chaotic" category, but I sincerely doubt her to be anything more sinister than "chaotic neutral", and as the story develops, she will most likely turn out to be good at heart like everyone else.

Call it pessimism, but I'm looking at recent Bioware games, and I see NO evil companions. Mass Effect, Jade Empire, etc.
A diverse cast, certainly, but none of them evil.

Awakenings would have been so incredibly easy to have had them in, since the warden (spoiler) goes around recruiting people for his quest. He could just invoke the right of conscription like we see Duncan do in DA:O, where even a (should you have chosen this approach) bastard dwarf rogue can be forced into their ranks, or die.
A similar scenario had been exceptionally easy to integrate.

While I will not just go balls-out evil/ruthless in any and every future DA2 playthrough, I really want my companions to represent such choices as well.
Look at DA:O. Everyone except Morrigan would essentially agree with "good" choices, and Morrigan wasn't even really evil, she was more of a "closed fist" type of alignment, where she just didn't want to help people who couldn't help themselves. She might have had some evil tendencies, sure, but I would just call her the embodiment of "Chaotic Neutral". Would she, for instance, enter a deal with a demon (Redcliffe boy)? No way.

It may seem trivial, and some may not even see the necessity... But I'm just disappointed. Previous Bioware games have had these awesome evil characters, one of my favourites being Edwin from Baldur's Gate. That guy was hilarious.

I realise it may be too late to implement whole new followers in DA2, but maybe I can spark some discussion here? I certainly don't think I'm the only one feeling this way.

[Aermas]

I'd only like to have an evil companion if we could redeem them, you can make the good companions "hardened" you should be able to "soften" the evil ones. But I do support the idea of an evil companion

[JrayM16]

Morrigan, Sten, Shale, Zevran(to a lesser degree), Evil Leliana.



I haven't played Awakening but I can only imagine that there are examples there as well.

[Crimson Invictus]

JrayM16 wrote...

Morrigan, Sten, Shale, Zevran(to a lesser degree), Evil Leliana.

I'd disagree that any of those were "evil".

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 11 décembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[andar91]

As long as evil doesn't mean thug I'll be fine. But evil is such a black and white term, and I think Bioware's going for a more realistic approach. Another approach could be someone who is incredibly angry for one reason or another, or is really misguided, and is willing to do absolutely anything to achieve their goals, and they think helping Hawke is the best way to achieve them as well. Or something.Don't forget that nobody really thinks of themselves as a villain or "evil".  They think they're doing the right thing.

Modifié par andar91, 12 décembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[The Big Nothing]

If the only way to stop a Blight is to sacrifice your own life and you choose to live, does that make you evil? If you have a family and sacrifice your life to end a Blight, thereby abandoning them, does that make you evil?

Evil is relative.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 12 décembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[Thunderfox]

^ As Mentioned, I would not classify any of those as Evil. Morrigan you could maaaybe make an arguement for depending on her plans for the god-baby.

[Liablecocksman]

JrayM16 wrote...

Morrigan, Sten, Shale, Zevran(to a lesser degree), Evil Leliana.

I haven't played Awakening but I can only imagine that there are examples there as well.

What!? Morrigan I've already covered in the OP.
You call Sten, Shale, Zevran and hardened Leliana evil!?

Hardened Leliana would even still leave you (spoiler) if you desecrated the urn, if you hadn't a high enough coercion skill.

Calling Shale, Sten and Zevran evil is, quite frankly, equally inaccurate. I have no other way of putting it. In no way are those characters actually *evil*. I'm not talking about people who look out for themselves (Zevran), or from a whole other culture with other values (Sten), or golems and thus obviously without required empathy for some situations (Shale) - I'm talking about evil characters.

Go play, for instance, Baldur's Gate, and I'm sure you'll see what I mean.

EDIT:
I realise implimenting a robot-like personality like HK-47 is impossible in a medieval setting, but think on this. We are in a time period where people are killed for incredibly minor crimes, and the life of anyone (except someone with any degree of blue blood in them) is worth less than the weapon that kills them. Look at DA:O: We have slavers, rapists, killers, manipulative and twisted people... evil-doers in all walks of life. Why can we not somehow affialiate with any of these types?

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 12 décembre 2010 - 12:07 .

[Gabey5]

JrayM16 wrote...

Morrigan, Sten, Shale, Zevran(to a lesser degree), Evil Leliana.

I haven't played Awakening but I can only imagine that there are examples there as well.

they werent even remotely evil.

i would want a companion that was a serial killer for pleasure's sake. zev and leliana did it for pay

[The Big Nothing]

ThunderfoxF wrote...

^ As Mentioned, I would not classify any of those as Evil. Morrigan you could maaaybe make an arguement for depending on her plans for the god-baby.

Even if she uses the God-baby to control the darkspawn horde and become the Dark Queen of Thedas, she is not evil; she is selfish. Instead of using the God-baby to stop Blights, she is using it to advance her own interests--a selfish act.
There are only four motivations to do anything, and none of them are evil: affiliation (to form meaningful relationships), achievement (to overcome adversity/competition), power for power's sake, and power for fear of weakness.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 12 décembre 2010 - 12:09 .

[Aermas]

I'd like a Lawful Evil, type knight. Lawful Evil is always fun, & gives the character a reason to help the protagonist without slaughtering everything going "I'm evil hahahah". Simple slaughter isn't fun. Corrupting the protagonist is.

[Beerfish]

Of course they were evil if you look at their reactions to things we would find repugnant in our society. Perhaps not video game evil as in kill on a whim but stealing a kids cookies, constantly wanting to take the short cut in quests even if it means the death of the odd person is evil in my books unless of course one thinks Morrigan and Sten were just kidding and that assasssination (Zevran) and Murder (Shale) are perfectly all right.

[Demx]

As long as the evil character comes over to reinforce how great my evil decisions are, after I get chewed out from the rest of the group I'm all for it.

Modifié par Siradix, 12 décembre 2010 - 12:15 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Considering how blurred the moral spectrum is in a game like this, evil character might be justified, and all of a sudden it doesn't look as evil anymore...

[The Big Nothing]

Beerfish wrote...

Of course they were evil if you look at their reactions to things we would find repugnant in our society. Perhaps not video game evil as in kill on a whim but stealing a kids cookies, constantly wanting to take the short cut in quests even if it means the death of the odd person is evil in my books unless of course one thinks Morrigan and Sten were just kidding and that assasssination (Zevran) and Murder (Shale) are perfectly all right.

There is no evil, it's just selfish versus altruistic.

[ErichHartmann]

I prefer morally ambiguous companions that are open to interpretation by the player.

[Liablecocksman]

The Big Nothing wrote...
Even if she uses the God-baby to control the darkspawn horde and become the Dark Queen of Thedas, she is not evil; she is selfish. Instead of using the God-baby to stop Blights, she is using it to advance her own interests--a selfish act.
There are only four motivations to do anything, and none of them are evil: affiliation (to form meaningful relationships), achievement (to overcome adversity/competition), power for power's sake, and power for fear of weakness.

There is no need for turning this into a philosophical debate. I didn't create this topic to argue moral values, and whether or not these are universal - I made it because I've felt let down by the number of "evil" characters in the last few Bioware games. In order to properly convey my point without making it about the moral values themselves, I used "Edwin" from Baldurs Gate as an example.

If everything you have to add is "Evil is relative", and "There is no such thing as evil", then please remove yourself from this topic. I realise that "Evil" is a matter of definition and perspective, eyes of the beholder and such, but that is for an entirely other topic. I don't think anyone is unclear on what my intention was with this topic, yourself included.

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 12 décembre 2010 - 12:24 .

[PsychoBlonde]

Yeah, a Dr. Evil Caricature Character doesn't really suit Dragon Age imo.



Of course, it might be funny if you had a wise-cracking comrade who insists that they are Evil and that they do Evil things and is just incredibly sarcastic about the entire business--especially if they make it their business to point out where the no-good-option questionable choices could go HORRIBLY WRONG and enthuse about how Evil you are no matter what you do.

[surfgirlusa_2006]

I'm not necessarily interested in having an "evil overlord" type character, but I would like to see someone who engages in evil acts, believing it to be for the greater good. We have a lot of people like that in history, so it wouldn't be unrealistic.



In general, I like complex characters who can't easily be defined as good or evil. The ones in George R. R. Martin's books come to mind.

[Jester8183]

Beerfish wrote...

Of course they were evil if you look at their reactions to things we would find repugnant in our society. Perhaps not video game evil as in kill on a whim but stealing a kids cookies, constantly wanting to take the short cut in quests even if it means the death of the odd person is evil in my books unless of course one thinks Morrigan and Sten were just kidding and that assasssination (Zevran) and Murder (Shale) are perfectly all right.

Didn't Leliana say she had assassinated people as well?  And Shale was a slave who killed the man controlling her (mostly because he was putzing around with her).  I personally think that rapist, slavers and betreyers are evil... personally, I wouldn't want to travel with one.

[surfgirlusa_2006]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Yeah, a Dr. Evil Caricature Character doesn't really suit Dragon Age imo.

Of course, it might be funny if you had a wise-cracking comrade who insists that they are Evil and that they do Evil things and is just incredibly sarcastic about the entire business--especially if they make it their business to point out where the no-good-option questionable choices could go HORRIBLY WRONG and enthuse about how Evil you are no matter what you do.

I like this idea.

*applauds*

[druplesnubb]

Morrigan, Zevran and Shale are all evil. Morrigan completely lacks compassion for anyone except the warden, and then only if he, she's also evil or abuses the gift system. Zevran outright states that he doesn't think there's anything wrong at all with killing people, by what measuring does that not make him evil? Shale enjoys killing innocents more than any other party member and almost completely lacks empathy. That makes him evil. The fact that he's a golem doesn't make him less evil, it only explains why he is evil. There's also Velanna who kills dosens of humans and says she feels "warm and fuzzy" about it even after she learned that they were innocent. She turns good after some character development though.

Modifié par druplesnubb, 12 décembre 2010 - 12:28 .

[HighMoon]

Liable****sman wrote...

neutral", and as the story develops, she will most likely turn out to be good at heart like everyone else.

Call it pessimism, but I'm looking at recent Bioware games, and I see NO evil companions. Mass Effect, Jade Empire, etc.
A diverse cast, certainly, but none of them evil.

Really? So you wouldn't call Ya Zhen evil?

[Frolk]

As long as the companion is well written, I'm all for it. I don't want a "token evil guy" who's only there for the sake of moral diversity.

[Liablecocksman]

PsychoBlonde wrote...

Yeah, a Dr. Evil Caricature Character doesn't really suit Dragon Age imo.

Of course, it might be funny if you had a wise-cracking comrade who insists that they are Evil and that they do Evil things and is just incredibly sarcastic about the entire business--especially if they make it their business to point out where the no-good-option questionable choices could go HORRIBLY WRONG and enthuse about how Evil you are no matter what you do.

You sound like you should really play some Baldurs Gate, if you haven't already. Especially, for instance, Edwin is excellent at precisely what you describe.

Golden-Rose wrote...
Really? So you wouldn't call Ya Zhen evil?

Wild Flower is the companion, not Ya Zhen. He is an added bonus, but hardly an actual fleshed-out companion.

druplesnubb wrote...

Morrigan, Zevran and Shale are all
evil. Morrigan completely lacks compassion for anyone except the
warden, and then only if he, she's also evil or abuses the gift system.
Zevran outright states that he doesn't think there's anything wrong at
all with killing people, by what measuring does that not make him evil?
Shale enjoys killing innocents more than any other party member and
almost completely lacks empathy. That makes him evil. The fact that
he's a golem doesn't make him less evil, it only explains why he is
evil. There's also Velanna who kills dosens of humans and says she
feels "warm and fuzzy" about it even after she learned that they were
innocent. She turns good after some character development
though.

Morrigan I've covered in the OP.
Zevran was raised by assassins and live by an assassins code of conduct. He would have been killed had he not adhered to it, and the reason he thinks like he does, is because his own life is worth nothing to his masters.
It is a tragic case indeed, but he isn't evil.
Shale enjoys killing darkspawn and preventing the blight as much as killing innocents. She isn't evil, she is "chaotic".
Velanna hates humans. That's it. She doesn't hate anyone or anything else, just humans. She is racist, certainly, but not evil.

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 12 décembre 2010 - 12:36 .