216 réponses à ce sujet

[upsettingshorts]

"Survival of the fittest" is a corruption. It's survival of the fit. As long as you're good enough to survive, you will - if we're going to be very basic.

Morrigan strikes me as a Renegade in the Mass Effect sense. She's coldly expedient.

It also strikes me that I say strikes me too much. 

*goes back to the phrase-use drawing board*

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 décembre 2010 - 01:44 .

[Liablecocksman]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...
I see.

"Survival of the fittest" means to fit the requirements of the niche in which that creature survives. You literally fit the best into that environment by being “better adapted for immediate, local environment”.It has nothing to do with an inability to save your own skin nor allowing others to die because they couldn’t.

Natural selection, by the way, relates to traits been lost or gained over a period of generations due to their effect upon the survival or reproductive capabilities of the species. It also has nothing at all to do with what you’re talking about.

I'm not sure Morrigan has any real thoughts about the ability of people to breed or has any real cause to attempt making certain phenotypic traits dominant.

You're completely right.
I doubt Morrigan has any real thought about the ability of people to breed, too.
But if you're going to take everything I say literally to the letter, I have no idea how a) you're clever enough to use a computer, and why you are attempting at discussion.

Adhering to a "survival of the fittest" philosophy doesn't imply that said person contemplates the theory in depth, it merely implies that said person will believe those who cannot survive on their own to be of little worth, as they are simply too weak to survive.

[Ryzaki]

Ironically I find her nothing like Renegade Shep. While RShep can be a douche he genuinely gives a damn about people other than himself without needing to be in love with them (romantically) or be molded by them. And isn't going to crush everyone he can just to be a douche. Now he might punch you in the face for p*ssing him off but by the same margin he'll yell at you to encourage you and will help in his own douchebag way.

At the end of the day even RShepard is a hero. Morrigan is the furthest one could be from that.

Not to mention Renegade Shepard is an inspiring leader somthing Morrigan will never be unles she gets a personality transplant.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 décembre 2010 - 01:48 .

[upsettingshorts]

Depends on your perspective, I think. But you're right in that their goals aren't really comparable. It was a throwaway description - I don't really intend to get into a serious discussion of Morrigan's character.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah it is perspctive see I just see Renegade as being less forgiving than Paragon. He's a bit of a jerk but he's not evil, he wouldn't hurt someone just because they were weaker than him. (Now he threatens plenty of people but everyone he hits it's either in self defense (took out a weapon) or because he's completely pissed off (the reporter).

And honestly the reporter was asking for it. >_>

At the end of the day both renegade and paragons put their lives on the line to save other people. Morrigan would only do that if she had something to gain.

Edit: Oh sorry then it's just that comparison bothers me. Renegade is so self-contradictory in game I don't want to think my ReneShep would be willing to do anything just to get ahead. He's a bit of a douche but at the end of the day he's a douche trying to save the galaxy.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 décembre 2010 - 01:54 .

[Liablecocksman]

Ryzaki wrote...

That's what I meant. The fact that my CE couldn't punch her in the face for saying that was maddening.

And Morrigan always choses the laziest most narcisstic way. Not even the most convient. {smilie}

This thread goes into detail with nearly everything I find wrong with her.

Okay, I never got that far with a city elf, personally - only did playthroughs as human noble, human male and the two dwarven origins. I hadn't a clue what you were talking about, sacrificing "family members".

You can understand where Morrigan is coming from though, essentially. The worst thing that can happen in the game, as has already been mentioned in this topic, is that you die and then reload. Morrigan doesn't know that. You are fighting a losing battle against both the Blight and Loghain.
In essence:
Every little bit helps.
In Morrigans head, every time you (The character) does not take someone up on an offer to become stronger, you don't raise the chance of living, and thus not the chance of giving her to possiblity to (spoiler) birth a demon child, or whatever her actual agenda is.

I may have to think more on her, but she didn't once strike me as being evil in either of my playthroughs (good or evil PC) - just worried about the PC, and uncaring.

Also - Morrigan DOES put her life on the line. She is fighting next to you. The fact that she immediately revives with an "injury" doesn't make her risk her life less 

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 14 décembre 2010 - 01:57 .

[Crimson Invictus]

Liable****sman wrote...
But if you're going to take everything I say literally to the letter, I have no idea how a) you're clever enough to use a computer, and why you are attempting at discussion.

I'm sure you imagine that was terribly clever and cutting but I can assure it does little when feeble insults are your first recourse.

I commented upon its incorrect usage, nothing more.

Liable****sman wrote...
Adhering to a "survival of the fittest" philosophy doesn't imply that said person contemplates the theory in depth, it merely implies that said person will believe those who cannot survive on their own to be of little worth, as they are simply too weak to survive.

It would seem that an explanation of what it means is still not enough to enlighten you as to what it means. "Survival of the fittest" implies nothing of the sort.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 14 décembre 2010 - 01:59 .

[Liablecocksman]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

I'm sure you imagine that was terribly clever and cutting but I can assure it does little when feeble insults are your first recourse.

Not really, no.
But your continual willingness to argue semantics is tiring beyond belief. Implying that I have no idea of what the phrase means is insulting and incorrect. You are still taking everything I say quite literally. It's a shame.

It would seem that an explanation of what it means is still not enough to enlighten you as to what it means. "Survival of the fittest" implies nothing of the sort.

I wasn't enlightened in the slightest.
I don't think describing a character who thinks others unfit to survive on their own are not worthy of help as being a fan of the "survival of the fittest" philosophy is wrong. If taken literally, yes, maybe. It isn't really meant to, though...

I already said that, however, so I'm unsure what else you want of me.

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 14 décembre 2010 - 02:06 .

[Liablecocksman]

filaminstrel wrote...

I'm pretty sure he's referring to Social Darwinism, which seems a little strange to say has nothing to do with survival of the fittest, since proponents of it used that principle as a basis for the beliefs. Or perhaps "bastardized" would be more appropriate. Is that why you don't like him using survival of the fittest in this context? Because Social Darwinism is a bastardization of the intended meaning of the term?

Jesus, the term has been avoiding me all night. Socialdarwinism. That is what I'm talking about precisely.

[Crimson Invictus]

filaminstrel wrote...
Is that why you don't like him using survival of the fittest in this context? Because Social Darwinism is a bastardization of the intended meaning of the term?

He laid claim to it being a Darwinistic(sic) "Survival of the fittest" not I. Coupled with claims about "natural selection", which means much the same as "survival of the fittest", suggested an ignorance of both.

In Social Darwinism it is used to mean competition between individuals for limited resources.

Modifié par Liana Nighthawk, 14 décembre 2010 - 02:26 .

[blothulfur]

Darwin was wrong you all exist because I allow it and you shall end because I demand it.

[Liablecocksman]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

He laid claim to it being a Darwinistic(sic) "Survival of the fittest" not I. Coupled with claims about "natural selection", which means much the same as "survival of the fittest", suggested an ignorance of both.

In Social Darwinism it is used to mean competition between individuals for limited resources.

Please don't talk about me in the third person in such a manner. That is incredibly rude.
Still, you are arguing semantics, yes? Please don't ruin my topic because you somehow feel the need to come in, and set the record straight. I used the term loosely in an attempt to quickly describe Morrigans character and perspective.

And yes, natural selection does enter into it. Given that Morrigan doesn't interfere in the business of others to help, the "stronger" will survive, and thus breed. You know, as you say, much like what I'm trying to convey with my "Survival of the Fittest" "Socialdarwinistic" description.
I didn't invent Socialdarwinism, so it's not something I personally cooked up being "darwinistic".

If you hadn't taken my initial description literally, and instead attributed it to some sort of (or at least asked) social evolutionary viewpoint, it would make perfect sense, I'm sure.

Still - This discussion is very much off-topic, and not where I wanted this thread to go. If you have more to add, which I'm sure you do, please write me a private message instead. If you don't feel like I'm worth the time, then don't... Just stop it in the thread, please.

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 14 décembre 2010 - 02:37 .

[Dagiz]

Someone is learning never to mess with the Liana. She is THE ONE. And THE ONLY.

On the subject of Darwinism...I really wish people would learn what Darwin actually said. There is no, has never been and never will be any statement that says "the strong will survive". Never. He never ever stated that yet it is always assumed that is what was said. It's all about adaptability.

I kinda have to side with Liana on this though, and that is if one (and not just here but anywhere) is going to make an argument and debate the merits of things, no matter if it is on the internet or out in the real world, one had better have their definitions straight. Otherwise, bad juju happens. There is someone out there who will look at what you say and take issue because it is not being applied properly as is the case here.

Back on topic - face it. Morrigan had one goal in the entire game and that was to ****** off Alistair. Really, that was the only reason she was in the game in the first place.

Modifié par Dagiz, 14 décembre 2010 - 04:32 .

[Snoteye]

Liable****sman wrote...

And yes, natural selection does enter into it. Given that Morrigan doesn't interfere in the business of others to help, the "stronger" will survive, and thus breed.

But that doesn't say anything at all about Morrigan. She isn't motivated by an interest in seeing the strongest or most capable survive, she doesn't care. All she wants is to bump uglies with a dying man and disappear mysteriously. She does not have a "teach them to fish" mentality.

Dagiz wrote...

Morrigan had one goal in the entire game and that was to ****** off Alistair. Really, that was the only reason she was in the game in the first place.

I still say they were getting it on in secret. That much sexual tension does not go unchecked.

Modifié par Snoteye, 14 décembre 2010 - 07:01 .

[Wishpig]

Liana Nighthawk wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...

Morrigan, Sten, Shale, Zevran(to a lesser degree), Evil Leliana.

I'd disagree that any of those were "evil".

Ya... you want evil look at some of the BG2 cast. Korgan Bloodaxe the beserker dwarf for example... he's evil. Driven soley by greed he has a long history of brutally murdering his party. Ingame he will actually KILL the innocent (an annoying) elf character in your group for being too good. Thats evil.

He's also funny as all hell.

"[to Aerie] If I wanted to listen to yer yip, ye prissy elf, I’d pull
ye over my knee and smack yer bottom. At least then I’d have meself
something interesting to do while ye blathered on."

Modifié par Wishpig, 14 décembre 2010 - 10:23 .

[mopotter]

I wouldn't mind an evil companion, as long as I can kill them; tell them to go away or just have them take off because they don't agree with me. One of my wardens killed Zev. He attacked me.



I'd actually like some or all of the companions to react differently to my character depending on how I play her and have the option of them just leaving or trying to kill me and dying in the process if we don't see eye to eye.

[Addai]

mopotter wrote...

I wouldn't mind an evil companion, as long as I can kill them; tell them to go away or just have them take off because they don't agree with me. One of my wardens killed Zev. He attacked me. 

Is that your definition for "evil"?
If Zevran is evil, I'm for having an evil companion. 

[Ryzaki]

Morrigan places her life on the line for her own interests and the second you say no she ditches you. There's nothing altruistic about that.

That said if you don't fid Morrigan evil what the hell are you looking for? Someone who constantly tries to kill the PC? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 décembre 2010 - 08:43 .

[Liablecocksman]

Wishpig wrote...
Ya... you want evil look at some of the
BG2 cast. Korgan Bloodaxe the beserker dwarf for example... he's evil.
Driven soley by greed he has a long history of brutally murdering his
party. Ingame he will actually KILL the innocent (an annoying) elf
character in your group for being too good. Thats evil.

He's also funny as all hell.

"[to Aerie] If I wanted to listen to yer yip, ye prissy elf, I’d pull ye over my knee and smack yer bottom. At least then I’d have meself something interesting to do while ye blathered on."

Aye, Korgan could definitely also have been mentioned, and probably should have been an honourable mention. There were just so many awesome (in my book) evil characters in BG and BG2. Look at Xzar, to name another:

"I am death, destroyer of worlds."

That single quote should earn him an honourable mention, I think. It's just insanely awesome...

mopotter wrote...
I wouldn't mind an evil companion, as long as I can kill them; tell them to go away or just have them take off because they don't agree with me. One of my wardens killed Zev. He attacked me.

I'd actually like some or all of the companions to react differently to my character depending on how I play her and have the option of them just leaving or trying to kill me and dying in the process if we don't see eye to eye.

...These stuck-up(or extremely blunt) characters that just second-guess the player and become incredibly annoying and will leave (or be killed) if they feel like it isn't going their way.

Exactly, mopotter! I wouldn't have it any other way - and it's even already somewhat how the good companions (Leliana, Wynne, Alistair) function.

Ryzaki wrote...

Morrigan
places her life on the line for her own interests and the second you
say no she ditches you. There's nothing altruistic about that.

That said if you don't fid Morrigan evil what the hell are you looking for? Someone who constantly tries to kill the PC? 

I've already tried to convey my answer to that question. I'm looking for someone blatantly evil (look at Baldurs Gate) like megalomaniac Xian, arrogant Edwin, bloodthirsty Korgan, etc. etc.
If you haven't played Baldurs Gate, I can't blame you for not knowing what I'm looking for, since it hasn't really been in any recent games (except, again, Bishop in NWN2).

Modifié par Liablecocksman, 14 décembre 2010 - 08:51 .

[Rykn]

Ryzaki wrote...

Morrigan places her life on the line for her own interests and the second you say no she ditches you. There's nothing altruistic about that.

That said if you don't fid Morrigan evil what the hell are you looking for? Someone who constantly tries to kill the PC? 

Before when I hardly knew anything about her that's actually what I thought Morrigan would be, a companion who constantly and secretly tries to kill the me. ah well.

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Morrigan places her life on the line for her own interests and the second you say no she ditches you. There's nothing altruistic about that.

That said if you don't fid Morrigan evil what the hell are you looking for? Someone who constantly tries to kill the PC? 

By that definition, all the companions are evil except Dog.  Wynne and Leliana leave you (or attack you) over a dustbin, Alistair won't have Loghain noway nohow, etc.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Morrigan places her life on the line for her own interests and the second you say no she ditches you. There's nothing altruistic about that.

That said if you don't fid Morrigan evil what the hell are you looking for? Someone who constantly tries to kill the PC? 

By that definition, all the companions are evil except Dog.  Wynne and Leliana leave you (or attack you) over a dustbin, Alistair won't have Loghain noway nohow, etc.

Where pray tell did I say someone was only evil if they constantly tried to kill the PC?

FYI: attacking someone once/twice for personal beliefs and ditching someone for recruiting someone else isn't remotely the same level as constantly trying to kill someone.

Bah let me explain myself. I mean someone who constanatly manipulates and tries to kill the PC for not doing his/her bidding to destroy the world/galaxy for no discernable reason other than them hating everyone.

That is lame boring complete and utter evil. You an be evil without doing such things. (Though evil is such an abstract that it means different things to differnt people).

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 décembre 2010 - 09:56 .

[Ryzaki]

Rykn wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Morrigan places her life on the line for her own interests and the second you say no she ditches you. There's nothing altruistic about that.

That said if you don't fid Morrigan evil what the hell are you looking for? Someone who constantly tries to kill the PC? 

Before when I hardly knew anything about her that's actually what I thought Morrigan would be, a companion who constantly and secretly tries to kill the me. ah well.

How did you get that impression? I mean the fact that the ads gave her away as an LI pretty much ruled that out in my mind.

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Morrigan places her life on the line for her own interests and the second you say no she ditches you. There's nothing altruistic about that.

That said if you don't fid Morrigan evil what the hell are you looking for? Someone who constantly tries to kill the PC? 

By that definition, all the companions are evil except Dog.  Wynne and Leliana leave you (or attack you) over a dustbin, Alistair won't have Loghain noway nohow, etc.

Where pray tell did I say someone was only evil if they constantly tried to kill the PC?

FYI: attacking someone once/twice for personal beliefs and ditching someone for recruiting someone else isn't remotely the same level as constantly trying to kill someone.

Bah let me explain myself. I mean someone who constanatly manipulates and tries to kill the PC for not doing his/her bidding to destroy the world/galaxy for no discernable reason other than them hating everyone.

That is lame boring complete and utter evil. You an be evil without doing such things. (Though evil is such an abstract that it means different things to differnt people).

I'm disputing the idea that Morrigan is evil because she leaves if you refuse the DR.