216 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

^And that's not the reason I consider her evil so...your point?

I just said Morrigan helping you before the ritual wasn't out of altruism and her main goal wasn't stopping the blight.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 décembre 2010 - 10:00 .

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

^And that's not the reason I consider her evil so...your point?

I just said Morrigan helping you before the ritual wasn't out of altruism and her main goal wasn't stopping the blight.

Not sure you can say even that.  As Flemeth points out, no one wins if the Blight destroys everything.  I wouldn't call Morrigan altruistic but who is purely altruistic in the entire game?  Everyone wants something personal as well as the larger goals.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^And that's not the reason I consider her evil so...your point?

I just said Morrigan helping you before the ritual wasn't out of altruism and her main goal wasn't stopping the blight.

Not sure you can say even that.  As Flemeth points out, no one wins if the Blight destroys everything.  I wouldn't call Morrigan altruistic but who is purely altruistic in the entire game?  Everyone wants something personal as well as the larger goals.

The fact that she ditches you before the final battle tells you plenty about her main goal.

And I never said anyone was purely altrusitic just that Morrigan wasn't.

[Addai]

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^And that's not the reason I consider her evil so...your point?

I just said Morrigan helping you before the ritual wasn't out of altruism and her main goal wasn't stopping the blight.

Not sure you can say even that.  As Flemeth points out, no one wins if the Blight destroys everything.  I wouldn't call Morrigan altruistic but who is purely altruistic in the entire game?  Everyone wants something personal as well as the larger goals.

The fact that she ditches you before the final battle tells you plenty about her main goal.

And I never said anyone was purely altrusitic just that Morrigan wasn't.

And does that make Leliana's and Wynne's main goal the spread of Andrastianism?  All of the followers have a personal breaking point, it doesn't mean they're more selfish than any other self-interested person.  Morrigan doesn't want to continue to aid someone so foolish as to throw their life away for a few scruples.  Alistair won't aid someone who tarnishes the honor of the Grey Wardens.  Leliana and Wynne can abandon you much earlier, over essentially religious grounds, even though they think you're the salvation of mankind.

None of the Warden's companions are pointlessly evil, but as I said upthread, that's just fine by me.  I wouldn't recruit someone who is malevolent just for the sake of.

[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...
And does that make Leliana's and Wynne's main goal the spread of Andrastianism?  All of the followers have a personal breaking point, it doesn't mean they're more selfish than any other self-interested person.  Morrigan doesn't want to continue to aid someone so foolish as to throw their life away for a few scruples.  Alistair won't aid someone who tarnishes the honor of the Grey Wardens.  Leliana and Wynne can abandon you much earlier, over essentially religious grounds, even though they think you're the salvation of mankind.

None of the Warden's companions are pointlessly evil, but as I said upthread, that's just fine by me.  I wouldn't recruit someone who is malevolent just for the sake of.

Really? So the two of them knew about the Urn of Sacred Ashes before hand and never bothered telling you about them?

Also: There's no "throwing your life away for a few scruples". Riordan is still there an willing to die as is Loghain/Alistair. The PC has a fairly good chance of living. (And if you bring up well they could die before reaching the AD in the first place so can the PC).

And that was overly emotional but the fact is you could see that coming a mile away. Leliana is very devout and very emotional, Wynne is...well wynne so their attacking isn't overly surprising.

And we disagree on that and aren't going to agree so I'll end this here before we get into a debate just for the sake of debating.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 décembre 2010 - 10:20 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ryzaki wrote...

And that was overly emotional but the fact is you could see that coming a mile away. Leliana is very devout and very emotional.

I was surprised Leliana attacked me because Leliana wasn't there, and I would hope no one in the party was dumb enough to tell her what we did.

[Ryzaki]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And that was overly emotional but the fact is you could see that coming a mile away. Leliana is very devout and very emotional.

I was surprised Leliana attacked me because Leliana wasn't there, and I would hope no one in the party was dumb enough to tell her what we did.

Wait she still attacks you? I thought she got pissed an stormed off.

And yeah your party members need to learn to keep their mouths shut. <_<

[Drasanil]

^I don't think of it's even a question of smart enough. Morrigan alone would be absolutely *delighted* to tell Wynne and Lelianna about how she and the Warden defiled their most holy of holies and watch the sh!t hit the fan. She's a b!tch like that.

[upsettingshorts]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I was surprised Leliana attacked me because Leliana wasn't there, and I would hope no one in the party was dumb enough to tell her what we did.

It would be interesting if you had taken say, Sten, Morrigan and Dog and she still found out.  Talk about suspending disbelief!

Drasanil wrote...

^I don't think of it's even a question of smart enough. Morrigan alone would be absolutely *delighted* to tell Wynne and Lelianna about how she and the Warden defiled their most holy of holies and watch the sh!t hit the fan. She's a b!tch like
that.

Eh, maybe.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 14 décembre 2010 - 11:06 .

[nightcobra]

Drasanil wrote...

^I don't think of it's even a question of smart enough. Morrigan alone would be absolutely *delighted* to tell Wynne and Lelianna about how she and the Warden defiled their most holy of holies and watch the sh!t hit the fan. She's a b!tch like that.

i can see her doing it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I was surprised Leliana attacked me because Leliana wasn't there, and I would hope no one in the party was dumb enough to tell her what we did.

It would be interesting if you had taken say, Sten, Morrigan and Dog and she still found out.  Talk about suspending disbelief!

Morrigan might tell her just for fun.

But what if you soloed it?

[AntiChri5]

Maker told her.

[DMC12]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I was surprised Leliana attacked me because Leliana wasn't there, and I would hope no one in the party was dumb enough to tell her what we did.

It would be interesting if you had taken say, Sten, Morrigan and Dog and she still found out.  Talk about suspending disbelief!

Morrigan might tell her just for fun.

But what if you soloed it?

Then you don't need Leliana anyway if you can take on the Guardian, and his elite ghost goons by yourself.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Maker told her.

That's a terrific answer, and not one I've heard before.

Good job.

[Wishpig]

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

^And that's not the reason I consider her evil so...your point?

I just said Morrigan helping you before the ritual wasn't out of altruism and her main goal wasn't stopping the blight.

Not sure you can say even that.  As Flemeth points out, no one wins if the Blight destroys everything.  I wouldn't call Morrigan altruistic but who is purely altruistic in the entire game?  Everyone wants something personal as well as the larger goals.

The fact that she ditches you before the final battle tells you plenty about her main goal.

And I never said anyone was purely altrusitic just that Morrigan wasn't.

Lets not forget there was a cut scene that just didn't make it in time (although turned into a comic). In the cut scene Morrigan shows much more remorse about leaving, being actually torn.

Thats how the writers saw her and thats how they tried to predict her. Greedy and arrogant sure... but she did care, just not enough to, as she saw it, throw her life away.

[Herr Uhl]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I was surprised Leliana attacked me because Leliana wasn't there, and I would hope no one in the party was dumb enough to tell her what we did.

It would be interesting if you had taken say, Sten, Morrigan and Dog and she still found out.  Talk about suspending disbelief!

Morrigan might tell her just for fun.

But what if you soloed it?

The game assumes that you're not soloing (as in bringing a full party at any time) and that companions talk to each other. Leliana would be very interested in knowing what happened, and I think she could get a straight answer out of anyone except the potentially dead Wynne and dog. That leaves one spot open for someone that would be able to tell her.

My guess anyways.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The game assumes that you're not soloing (as in bringing a full party at any time) and that companions talk to each other. Leliana would be very interested in knowing what happened, and I think she could get a straight answer out of anyone except the potentially dead Wynne and dog. That leaves one spot open for someone that would be able to tell her.

My guess anyways.

If the game forced a full party (like ME does) that would make sense.

As it is, the game allows soloing.  I think it was poor design for Leliana to react to information she couldn't have had (unless, as mentioned, the Maker told her).

[Maconbar]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The game assumes that you're not soloing (as in bringing a full party at any time) and that companions talk to each other. Leliana would be very interested in knowing what happened, and I think she could get a straight answer out of anyone except the potentially dead Wynne and dog. That leaves one spot open for someone that would be able to tell her.

My guess anyways.

If the game forced a full party (like ME does) that would make sense.

As it is, the game allows soloing.  I think it was poor design for Leliana to react to information she couldn't have had (unless, as mentioned, the Maker told her).

It's the secret bard skill that allows her to figure it out.

[maxernst]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

The game assumes that you're not soloing (as in bringing a full party at any time) and that companions talk to each other. Leliana would be very interested in knowing what happened, and I think she could get a straight answer out of anyone except the potentially dead Wynne and dog. That leaves one spot open for someone that would be able to tell her.

My guess anyways.

If the game forced a full party (like ME does) that would make sense.

As it is, the game allows soloing.  I think it was poor design for Leliana to react to information she couldn't have had (unless, as mentioned, the Maker told her).

The game does force a full party at the ashes.  You can't get through the puzzle without it.

[Crimson Invictus]

I have a hard time imagining Sten doing anything other than telling her if asked.

Drasanil wrote...
She's a b!tch like that.

Payback is, certainly.

[Who is that Masked Man]

But Leliana only knows you poisoned the ashes if you do it right in front of her, or if the Warden admits the deed in a conversation with her. It's Wynne, not Leliana, who finds out that you poisoned the ashes regardless of whether or not she was in the party.



To address the original topic of this thread, HK-47 was entertaining, sure, and Bishop was an interesting guy. But both the Star Wars universe and the Forgotten Realms setting are extremely black-and-white to begin with. The world of Dragon Age is more of a shades of gray kind of place. In a world where you can cast a Detect Evil spell whenever you like, or where the Dark Side of the Force can swallow you whole, a "pure evil" party member doesn't necessarily seem out of place. In the world of Dragon Age, I just don't think it would be a good fit.



Regarding the question as to whether Morrigan is evil, I think the very fact that people continue to argue (and argue, and argue, and argue) the point is proof enough that she's more complex than just that. When I think pure evil in Dragon Age, I think instead of Bann Vaughn (rapist and serial killer). Or Uldred (mass murderer, possessed by a demon). Or the Baroness (likewise). Or Arl Howe, at the very least (torturer, betrayer of his supposed friends, and murderer).

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I was surprised Leliana attacked me because Leliana wasn't there, and I would hope no one in the party was dumb enough to tell her what we did.

You can always justify this as other party members being horrified at what you did and ratting you out. Not as being stupid, but just bringing them closer to outright revolt.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Outside of Leliana, Wynne, and Alistair, I don't see why the others would really care.

[Ryzaki]

^The above and Wynne/Leli will attack you and Alistair...hmm...he is a bit of a gossip monger.

[Leonia]

Ryzaki wrote...

^The above and Wynne/Leli will attack you and Alistair...hmm...he is a bit of a gossip monger.

Heh, he'd totally tell everyone without even realising it. I always found it interesting that he doesn't really make much of a fuss about defiling the ashes, just a minor disapproval.