650 réponses à ce sujet

[nullunit]

If it had been a coalition of Council races that was working together to try and find something useful out of the tech I MIGHT have reconsidered glassing the Collector/Reaper base. If you read the second two ME novels, you can see how entropic and totally screwed the Reaper tech is and you can also see how completely without moral compass Cerberus is. In their xenophobic/ethnocentric quest for numan stability and supremacy Cerberus would be at risk of aiding the Reaper invasion.Personally I have multiple class and alignment play throughs from ME to ME2 so I can see all the story paths. One thing that didn't change on my run throughs was teh collector base base getting destroyed.

[Sidac]

Must develop along the paths they desire....so SAVE THE BASE!

[lovgreno]

Inverness Moon wrote...That does not make sense. First of all, reaper production takes time and lots of lives. If they started it up again they would have to go around abducting people again. The collectors were planning to abduct millions upon millions of humans, perhaps even billions, in order to create a single reaper. In a galaxy aware of the reapers, they would be hard pressed to do that. You seem to be implying that they could just pump out a new reaper every week or something at a significant enough rate to make a difference in the war.

So anyhow, I completely dismiss the idea that the base will be used to make more reapers.

Yes they were planning to do just that by targeting Earth. Kind of like in the sacking of London we just saw. I strongly doubt that they would have bothered equipping the Collector cruiser for that if they didn't have a good chance of sucess in that even without any actual reaper present at the moment. The chaos of the reaper invasion would actualy make it easier to reap.

The human reaper were obviously already alive so they had already suceeded in the first test run of the production. After that it would be easier to start mass production, especialy if the prototype could be salvaged or repaired. And even just one human reaper should be bad enough, imagine what a reaper that knows basicaly everything about humans could do to harm humanity. As long as the base stands the threat of the human reaper embryo is still there.

Dismiss the idea based on what? We know almost nothing about the base except that it was building a human reaper. We don't know if there is anything usefull to salvage there. We don't know if TIMmys radiation wave of Deus Ex Machina worked as intended (his plans do have a tendency to backfire). We don't know how Harbringer controlled it or how to stop him from assuming controll again. Reapers are sneaky you know, they do love making traps that you never see untill it's too late.

The only thing we do know is that a destroyed base means one reaper, one reaper base and one reaper production facility less.

[Jagri]

Heh wouldn't it blow your mind if Harbinger simply allowed Cerberus to hold on to the station but had control of it the whole time? Allowed them to fiddle about and think they were in control of the situation. One researcher "accidently" dies ever once in a while if they stumble too close to the truth before finally Harbinger holds a grand reopening of Collector Central by grinding down the most brilliant minds in Cerberus.

[lovgreno]

Arijharn wrote...
True it won't make any more Reapers, but I'm of the opinion that it wouldn't make any more Reapers after the fact anyway due to the fact that it's completely unattainable for Cerberus to do so even if they wished it, and frankly, I think the mere idea that they would wish it to be preposterous. 

Yes it would be rather stupid of Cerberus to restart the reaper production even if they had the knowledge and resources to do so. A indoctrinated Cerberus backed up by reapers and the potential surviving collectors on the other hand, yes definitely. They don't even need Cerberus for it actualy.

But I admit that considering the beating the collectors took it isn't unlikely that the base is as free from reapers and collectors as it seemed to be. But even so this is those darned sneaky and plotting reapers we are talking about and now after ME2 Harbringer have learned very much about humans, Shepard and Cerberus. It's impossible to say if it's worth the risk to keep the base or not but it's also not possible to say we don't risk everything both by destroying or keeping the base.

[Inverness Moon]

lovgreno wrote...

Dismiss the idea based on what? We know almost nothing about the base except that it was building a human reaper. We don't know if there is anything usefull to salvage there. We don't know if TIMmys radiation wave of Deus Ex Machina worked as intended (his plans do have a tendency to backfire). We don't know how Harbringer controlled it or how to stop him from assuming controll again. Reapers are sneaky you know, they do love making traps that you never see untill it's too late.

The only thing we do know is that a destroyed base means one reaper, one reaper base and one reaper production facility less.

We know that the collectors have a history of trading advanced technology to the rest of the galaxy. I find it hard to believe that technology wouldn't be found at the base in one form or another.

Jagri wrote...

Heh wouldn't it blow your mind if Harbinger simply allowed Cerberus to hold on to the station but had control of it the whole time? Allowed them to fiddle about and think they were in control of the situation. One researcher "accidently" dies ever once in a while if they stumble too close to the truth before finally Harbinger holds a grand reopening of Collector Central by grinding down the most brilliant minds in Cerberus.

No, that would be completely foolish on Harbinger's part. Cerberus would simply datamine anything left of value in the computers and have the data sent to a remote location for further study. Any equipment that could be studied and could be moved would also be taken to remote locations for further study and reverse engineering.

Anyhow, that whole idea just seems to be a horror story scenario that doesn't even make sense. But more importantly, the possibility of that is not a good enough reason to destroy the base.

[Zavox]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Because, unlike the collector base, the reapers seem to load themselves up with a crew so they can indoctrinate them and transport them around the galaxy to use for whatever purpose. That means they would need internal defenses for anyone that has yet to be indoctrinated or might somehow break their hold.

Huh? How would a reaper virus help against people inside the ship? That makes no sense whatsoever... 
It's specifically meant to prevent the use of the IFF by anything other than reapers.

And in the case you meant that the base is most likely safe due to it not transporting indoctrinated subjects and thus not having defenses... I wonder what all those defenses were that Shepard was refering to in the meeting before they went further in via the ducts. Again, makes no sense to suggest they have no defenses...

You say you don't like grasping at straws, but that is exactly what you're doing by assuming that other options exist when you decide destroy the collector base. That is exactly what everyone does when they destroy the base, they assume there is another option without evidence.

This is why I always scoff at the choice to destroy the base and the way people try to justify it. Every excuse for it is built on the assumption that there is another way.

You can't afford to be picky about what route you take to destroy the reapers.

I knew you were trying to catch me on the grasping at straws part. You however forget that my opinion was that both of us are grasping at straws, while you are adding the risk of allies not willing to unite under one banner with Cerberus, and/or the dangers the base represents.
I'd rather know for sure that I have the combined army of the galaxy without some 'holy grail' technology, than make a leap with Cerberus and hope I get some technology that those races will join in the fold, or that you do not need them anymore. I've got something large for certain, you've only got Cerberus as a certainty. That's why you're definately grasping at straws, and while I'm also grasping at straws, I'm better off for the moment.

Modifié par Zavox, 13 décembre 2010 - 05:25 .

[Blze001]

My Shep is brutally pragmatic. She saved the base, saved the rachni and rewrote the geth because the bigger threat is in the short-term. Once the Reapers have had their synthetic asses handed to them on a silver platter, then she'll see about punting TIM half-way across the galaxy.



Right now her army looks like this:

Council races. (Fully expecting the council to ****** about, but luckily the military aspects of those races will more than likely see the storm on the horizon)

Rachni. (They have a grudge against the Reapers too? Welcome aboard, you weird buggy thingies you!)

Geth. (Rewrote heretics, implored the Flotilla not to go to war.)

Quarians. (How 'bout y'all take your anger on A.Is out on the Reapers!)

Cerberus with access to Collector tech (And she is fully expecting that to bite her in the ass, but the enemy of my enemy...)

Krogan (Saved the genophage cure in case we need more Krogan stat)

Killed Vido. (Maybe Zaeed can step in, get the Blue Suns gunning with us. Every little bit helps)



So, yeah, bring it you big bug-like bastards.

[Vaenier]

Zavox wrote...

You say you don't like grasping at straws, but that is exactly what you're doing by assuming that other options exist when you decide destroy the collector base. That is exactly what everyone does when they destroy the base, they assume there is another option without evidence.

This is why I always scoff at the choice to destroy the base and the way people try to justify it. Every excuse for it is built on the assumption that there is another way.

You can't afford to be picky about what route you take to destroy the reapers.

I knew you were trying to catch me on the grasping at straws part. You however forget that my opinion was that both of us are grasping at straws, while you are adding the risk of allies not willing to unite under one banner with Cerberus, and/or the dangers the base represents.
I'd rather know for sure that I have the combined army of the galaxy without some 'holy grail' technology, than make a leap with Cerberus and hope I get some technology that those races will join in the fold, or that you do not need them anymore. I've got something large for certain, you've only got Cerberus as a certainty. That's why you're definately grasping at straws, and while I'm also grasping at straws, I'm better off for the moment.

And those who keep it gain knowledge, if it turns out useless, nothing lost, we blow up the base anyway. But those who blow it up right away throw out chance. You can always blow up the base, you just cant build another one. Reapers can though...

Measure twice, cut once?

And dont give any bull about not being able to get another chance. They make some really awsome bombs in the future. They make some really awsome bombs now. Anything short of dismantling the base around the bomb and recontructing it elsewhere is useless.

[Zavox]

Vaenier wrote...

And those who keep it gain knowledge, if it turns out useless, nothing lost, we blow up the base anyway. But those who blow it up right away throw out chance. You can always blow up the base, you just cant build another one. Reapers can though...

Measure twice, cut once?

And dont give any bull about not being able to get another chance. They make some really awsome bombs in the future. They make some really awsome bombs now. Anything short of dismantling the base around the bomb and recontructing it elsewhere is useless.

We're back to argument before aren't we? Cerberus has the base, Cerberus couldn't even destroy their own base when the Turians attacked and the highly dangerous Grayson was still aboard. Or the other failures for that matter. Cerberus is known to shun safety measures for shortcuts.

[Vaenier]

Zavox wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

And those who keep it gain knowledge, if it turns out useless, nothing lost, we blow up the base anyway. But those who blow it up right away throw out chance. You can always blow up the base, you just cant build another one. Reapers can though...

Measure twice, cut once?

And dont give any bull about not being able to get another chance. They make some really awsome bombs in the future. They make some really awsome bombs now. Anything short of dismantling the base around the bomb and recontructing it elsewhere is useless.

We're back to argument before aren't we? Cerberus has the base, Cerberus couldn't even destroy their own base when the Turians attacked and the highly dangerous Grayson was still aboard. Or the other failures for that matter. Cerberus is known to shun safety measures for shortcuts.

Who said it was Cerberus's bomb?

[In Exile]

Arijharn wrote...
The fact of the matter is is this; while both sides of this argument is taking a massive gamble, it's a safer assumption to keep the base because realistically speaking, how can you be absolutely positive that another method will fall into your lap to stop the Reapers?

The issue with this is that we have no idea that the base has any useful technology. It was a giant factory that melted people down to produce human slurpee and make a reaper. We have no idea if it had weapon schematics, data on the reapers, anything.

In fact, it wouldn't make sense for it to. If someone captured an a tank factory, they wouldn't get schematics on how to build F15s. All we could learn from the factory is how reapers are made, which might not get us any closer to killing them. 

Look at it right from the position of technological parity with the Reapers. There isn't any. The Collector's, the Reapers pawns, were about x years ahead of galactic standard, which means that utilizing that technology is x years ahead of what the Reapers could anticipate us being at when they arrive. Therefore, the gain in technology granted is logically going to help save lives more-so than merely hoping for the best.

But we have no idea what technology they had. Mostly they were using some kind of organic/machine hybrid tech, and everything else was designed to make human slurpee for reaper secks. I'm not seeing how human slurpee is instrumental to saving human lives.

That's why not keeping the Collector base is illogical, because you need something that can help bridge the technological divide between the Reapers, and there is nothing to assume that you'll otherwise be able to bridge that gap.

But that assumes thare is useful technology there. If we gave cavemen iphones, they're not suddenly reverse engineering that. If reaper tech is too advanced, even if it exists, we can do nothing with it.

And this doesn't account for the potential risk of indoctrination.

[Zavox]

Vaenier wrote...

Who said it was Cerberus's bomb?

And that changes what? Cerberus is the only one controlling the station, even if it's your bomb that's not going to do a whole lotta good. They know when something goes wrong, and they will have the time to respond. They never have done so in time so far though.

In Exile wrote...

But that assumes thare is useful technology there. If we gave cavemen
iphones, they're not suddenly reverse engineering that. If reaper tech
is too advanced, even if it exists, we can do nothing with it.

And this doesn't account for the potential risk of indoctrination.

Good point; Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. - Arthur C. Clarke.

Modifié par Zavox, 13 décembre 2010 - 05:48 .

[KendallX23]

this argument is kinda pointless...if the Base is kept there is no way of knowing how it will help...now if SHepard had control of it sure..let's see what we can find..but with Cerberus in control ?No way..they wull do something to screw up...they always do...and they will keep the info for themselves..only use it in the last minute..

If u blow it up...well u might have missed something...then again u might not...the cinematic u get after u finish talking to the IM..kind ashows u got some info..so...we will just have to wait for ME3 and see who was right..if any

[Pwner1323]

I know i just jumped into this thread, but this Cerberus vs Paragon war has been fought so many times I've lost count at 15. It always ends with nothing. I kept the base, and stand by my decision. Cerberus isn't going to use the base to fight the Reapers.



Cerberus will use it to dominate all aliens under Humanity's banner, wich I agree with and hope for. It is humanity's way to conquer and rule. The Reaper outcome will be determined by Shepard's choices throught the series. The ones who will determine the outcome of the war will be...



Shepard

Wrex

Legion

Rachni Queen

Tali



Not Cerberus, not the Alliance, not a Collector Base. It's only purpose is that of an endgame twister. At the endo of ME1 you choose to kill the council and put humans on top, not wathever the Reapers invade or not. In story lore, it's like that, in game mechanics, it isn't. If you played renegade you get to make Humanity top dogs. If you play as paragon, Humanity becomes the new Turians.



Keeping it= Human dominancy



Destroying it= Equality

[Vaenier]

Pwner1323 wrote...

Keeping it = Human dominancy
Destroying it = Equality

If that is all our choices mean, then this game would really suck...

[Pwner1323]

Vaenier wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...

Keeping it = Human dominancy
Destroying it = Equality

If that is all our choices mean, then this game would really suck...

In truth man... that's really what it all means when it comes down to it. Yeah you get some dialog and references, but it's just like ME1 to ME2.

Killing the council or saving them didn't interfere with the Reapers going through the relay. Same thing here. Keeping the base or destroying won't make a diference in the end.

Honestly, even if you don't, Shepard still knows after the conversation with TIM at the end, that Cerberus will use to dominate the galaxy.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but that's the truth in a nutshell. Still, ME is the best game series ever. Totally beats Star Wars too, and that's saying a lot. People just prefer reidiculous laser swords and super powered good vs evil then actual realism and morals instead of "good vs evil" wich at this point in modern society is boring.

[Inverness Moon]

Zavox wrote...

Huh? How would a reaper virus help against people inside the ship? That makes no sense whatsoever... 
It's specifically meant to prevent the use of the IFF by anything other than reapers.

Having a virus for the IFF is a way to deal with anyone that might try to steal it from the reaper whether it is alive or dead. Naturally, crew for a reaper that have yet to be fully indoctrinated are a risk. And I doubt indoctrination is perfect either.

Zavox wrote...

And in the case you meant that the base is most likely safe due to it not transporting indoctrinated subjects and thus not having defenses... I wonder what all those defenses were that Shepard was refering to in the meeting before they went further in via the ducts. Again, makes no sense to suggest they have no defenses...

I said previous that the collector base was not designed around indoctrinating its inhabitants like the reapers apparently were. The collectors were engineered and didn't need to be indoctrinated. The collector base was not designed for non-collectors to crew it and for anyone else to ever get into it which is why its internal defenses would logically not be as strong as those in a reaper. As for external defenses, we only encountered the Oculus did we not? I imagine those were around to deal with any ships that did manage to get through the relay without ending up in the unsafe zones.

Zavox wrote...

I knew you were trying to catch me on the grasping at straws part. You however forget that my opinion was that both of us are grasping at straws, while you are adding the risk of allies not willing to unite under one banner with Cerberus, and/or the dangers the base represents.

I'd rather know for sure that I have the combined army of the galaxy without some 'holy grail' technology, than make a leap with Cerberus and hope I get some technology that those races will join in the fold, or that you do not need them anymore. I've got something large for certain, you've only got Cerberus as a certainty. That's why you're definately grasping at straws, and while I'm also grasping at straws, I'm better off for the moment.

No, you're wrong. You keep trying to make my decision to save the base out to be anything like yours, which it is not. You, by destroying the base, are making the immediate mistake of assuming that the base isn't essential to the defeat of the reapers. I, by contrast, believe that the base MIGHT be essential to the defeat reapers. I also believe that destroying it will destroy anything useful regarding the previous point. There is quite the difference there.

Secondly, I already explained the bit about the allies before. You keep suggesting that saving the base will somehow endanger my ability to gather allies to face the reapers, and I've asked you to explain how exactly. I'm don't need to tell anybody what I did, and TIM isn't going to tell anybody while they can still do something it. Are you just assuming I'm going to put all my eggs in one basket and assume Cerberus will be successful or what? Of course I won't. I'm also not going to go around the galaxy proclaiming that I gave advanced technology to Cerberus, so I don't know why you keep insisting that giving the base to Cerberus will mean less allies for me.

Also, if you think for sure that destroying the base means you'll "have the combined army of the galaxy" then that is wishful thinking.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 13 décembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[Sajuro]

AngusJimiKeith wrote...

lets see......
i'll need
-the Cain
-the ME1 squad
-the ME2 squad
-the Normandy
-a fleet consisting of: Enterprise-A, Enterprise-D, both death stars, the Spirit of Fire, the Pillar of Autumn, and every current ME drednaught. boom.

Miranda: We are only twelve people against millions of reapers Shepard.
Shepard: -pumps shotgun- yeah, it hardly seems fair

[azerSheppard]

Pffff this again? As long as we have Assange, it will be alrite, he will soon expose sextapes of the reapers all over the internet, no need for Cerberus. Or maybe he is TIM? Makes you wonder.

[Zavox]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Having a virus for the IFF is a way to deal with anyone that might try to steal it from the reaper whether it is alive or dead. Naturally, crew for a reaper that have yet to be fully indoctrinated are a risk. And I doubt indoctrination is perfect either.

Yes, naturally, yet it's not a defense for the ship itself... it's an attack mechanism to attack the opposing ship which wants to reverse engineer it to use it themselves. Quite a bit different, and more in line with 'reverse engineering reaper tech is dangerous'.

I said previous that the collector base was not designed around indoctrinating its inhabitants like the reapers apparently were. The collectors were engineered and didn't need to be indoctrinated. The collector base was not designed for non-collectors to crew it and for anyone else to ever get into it which is why its internal defenses would logically not be as strong as those in a reaper. As for external defenses, we only encountered the Oculus did we not? I imagine those were around to deal with any ships that did manage to get through the relay without ending up in the unsafe zones.

The Collectors were the Protheans. Judging by the massive amount of ships, I find it quite likely the base may be older than the Collectors. Either it wasn't manned before, or manned by something else. Or there was a non-functional mass relay to the center of the galaxy for nothing other than destroying ships. Quite unlikely no?

No, you're wrong. You keep trying to make my decision to save the base out to be anything like yours, which it is not. You, by destroying the base, are making the immediate mistake of assuming that the base isn't essential to the defeat of the reapers. I, by contrast, believe that the base MIGHT be essential to the defeat reapers. I also believe that destroying it will destroy anything useful regarding the previous point. There is quite the difference there.

Secondly, I already explained the bit about the allies before. You keep suggesting that saving the base will somehow endanger my ability to gather allies to face the reapers, and I've asked you to explain how exactly. I'm don't need to tell anybody what I did, and TIM isn't going to tell anybody while they can still do something it. Are you just assuming I'm going to put all my eggs in one basket and assume Cerberus will be successful or what? Of course I won't. I'm also not going to go around the galaxy proclaiming that I gave advanced technology to Cerberus, so I don't know why you keep insisting that giving the base to Cerberus will mean less allies for me.

Also, if you think for sure that destroying the base means you'll "have the combined army of the galaxy" then that is wishful thinking.

Alright, lets say I have a higher chance of the combined army of the galaxy at my disposal than you do. Just the same as you have a higher chance of some miracle technology. Everyone knows you're allied with Cerberus, and if for some reason you start dishing out extraordinary defense and attack technology they will be able to put 1+1 together, and thus losing your chance with them, even if you lied to them before. If you think the other races this ignorant, then shame on you.

I never make the mistake of assuming the base may not be critical to the succes against the reapers, I just weigh the potential risks against the potential benefits. I think the potential risks outweigh the potential benefits. Plus I find the potential benefits sorely lacking. Any technology you will get will ONLY be on par with the reapers, secondly it will have to be mass produced up to the same NUMBERS as the reapers, to think such a thing is possible within a very limited amount of time is idiocracy.

Modifié par Zavox, 13 décembre 2010 - 06:49 .

[Aigyl]

I always saw Collector Base as a Faustian "Deal with the Devil" decision. Except unlike your typical Deal it decides the fate of all Humanity and if you refuse the Deal it could lead to your extinction. Woo.

It's obvious that once the Reapers are gone, the Collector Base isn't going to do any favours:

-Humans will go down the path of Reaper technology instead of making their own path. Remember that chat you had with Legion, how 95% of Geth turned down Sovereign's offer because they wanted to create their own future and not the road Reaper technology would set them down? This is the exact same decision for Humans; the long slow road where your race develops their own future, or the high fast road where you get all this wondrous Reaper tech at your feet and you jump ahead to new technological heights at once. But the Reapers made and decided on this future, not you. Self-determination vs. Pre-determination is a heavy theme of ME2.

-Said Reaper tech will be in the hands of the Illusive Man. That's going to end well.

The question for my Shepards is, is it worth taking that Deal when you want every technological edge you can get when fighting the Reapers?


And to spice up the decision more, Bioware left it deliberately vague and lacking information. The tech from the Collector Base could produce anything from just a few nice guns to a Cerberus-controlled Reaper, and anything inbetween.

[lovgreno]

Jagri wrote...

Heh wouldn't it blow your mind if Harbinger simply allowed Cerberus to hold on to the station but had control of it the whole time? Allowed them to fiddle about and think they were in control of the situation. One researcher "accidently" dies ever once in a while if they stumble too close to the truth before finally Harbinger holds a grand reopening of Collector Central by grinding down the most brilliant minds in Cerberus.

That has worked before yes.

[atheelogos]

U bet your **** I kept it : )

Modifié par atheelogos, 13 décembre 2010 - 06:51 .

[Pwner1323]

We're never going to see the end of the collector base threads are we.....