650 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Zavox wrote...

Yes, naturally, yet it's not a defense for the ship itself... it's an attack mechanism to attack the opposing ship which wants to reverse engineer it to use it themselves. Quite a bit different, and more in line with 'reverse engineering reaper tech is dangerous'.

Shepard didn't try to reverse engineer the IFF, they didn't have the time, so they just plugged it into the ship. THAT was dangerous. Using reaper technology as-is is much more dangerous than studying it to attempt reverse-engineering.

Zavox wrote...

The Collectors were the Protheans. Judging by the massive amount of ships, I find it quite likely the base may be older than the Collectors. Either it wasn't manned before, or manned by something else. Or there was a non-functional mass relay to the center of the galaxy for nothing other than destroying ships. Quite unlikely no?

How is this related to what I was saying?

Zavox wrote...

Alright, lets say I have a higher chance of the combined army of the galaxy at my disposal than you do. Just the same as you have a higher chance of some miracle technology. Everyone knows you're allied with Cerberus, and if for some reason you start dishing out extraordinary defense and attack technology they will be able to put 1+1 together, and thus losing your chance with them, even if you lied to them before. If you think the other races this ignorant, then shame on you.

Everyone knows I'm allied with Cerberus? What are you talking about?

I'm seriously tired of repeating myself. <_< What part "I can keep everything a secret" don't you understand? I don't have to tell anyone what I did with the base, I don't have to associate myself with Cerberus anymore afterwards. People would have no more reason to believe I am an ally of Cerberus than someone who destroyed the base.

All I need to do is make sure they have bigger things to worry about when they found out the truth (the reapers) if it happens before the reapers have been dealt with.

Edit: I also don't believe your claim that anyone finding out I gave advanced technology to Cerberus would necessarily mean I would "lose my chance" with them. The geth, rachni, and most likely the krogan due to Wrex are all going to understand the seriousness of the reaper threat.

Zavox wrote...

I never make the mistake of assuming the base may not be critical to the succes against the reapers, I just weigh the potential risks against the potential benefits. I think the potential risks outweigh the potential benefits. Plus I find the potential benefits sorely lacking.

Of course you do. If you destroy the base that means you flat out assume the base isn't critical to defeating the reapers. Unless, you're actually suggesting you would blow the base up anyways even if you believed it was critical to defeating the reapers?

Zavox wrote...

Any technology you will get will ONLY be on par with the reapers, secondly it will have to be mass produced up to the same NUMBERS as the reapers, to think such a thing is possible within a very limited amount of time is idiocracy.

First of all, having technology on par with the reapers is better than having technology weaker than theirs. So I don't see why you're even bringing this up.

Secondly, we don't know how many reapers there are or how much of this new technology can produce and how many ships or whatever could make use of it at this point. Either way, there is no point in worrying about that, because something is better than nothing in this case.

Finally, we don't know how long it will be until the reapers arrive, so you can't really guess how long it will take to manufacture and distribute whatever technology we gain from the base assuming any. Also, if time is limited, then the smart thing to do is reverse engineer technology from the collector base. Because, the alternative would be to either develop our technology naturally or just try to develop along some alternate path which would take much longer to reach the same level as the reapers.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 13 décembre 2010 - 07:31 .

[Zavox]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Shepard didn't try to reverse engineer the IFF, they didn't have the time, so they just plugged it into the ship. THAT was dangerous. Using reaper technology as-is is much more dangerous than studying it to attempt reverse-engineering.

Ah, yes, obviously the reapers make it so you can just plug-in & go anything they use, even though they don't want you to use it. Nevertheless, it was still not a defense mechanism like you suggested.

How is this related to what I was saying?

"I said previous that the collector base was not designed around
indoctrinating its inhabitants like the reapers apparently were. The
collectors were engineered and didn't need to be indoctrinated. The
collector base was not designed for non-collectors to crew it and for
anyone else to ever get into it which is why its internal defenses would
logically not be as strong as those in a reaper. As for external
defenses, we only encountered the Oculus did we not? I imagine those
were around to deal with any ships that did manage to get through the
relay without ending up in the unsafe zones."

Wasn't it obvious?

Everyone knows I'm allied with Cerberus? What are you talking about?

I'm seriously tired of repeating myself. <_< What part "I can keep everything a secret" don't you understand? I don't have to tell anyone what I did with the base, I don't have to associate myself with Cerberus anymore afterwards. People would have no more reason to believe I am an ally of Cerberus than someone who destroyed the base.

All I need to do is make sure they have bigger things to worry about when they found out the truth (the reapers) if it happens before the reapers have been dealt with.

Edit: I also don't believe your claim that anyone finding out I gave advanced technology to Cerberus would necessarily mean I would "lose my chance" with them. The geth, rachni, and most likely the krogan due to Wrex are all going to understand the seriousness of the reaper threat.

Wow, you seriously figure you can keep such a thing secret? First of all, your entire crew (or did you let them all die?) knows you're allied with Cerberus. So does the Shadowbroker. Furthermore, how the hell do you expect Cerberus ships to pass the Omega 4 relay without being noticed, or even come back for that matter? It's too big a secret to keep, it's bound to come out. Way too many variables man, I could even name a couple more if you'd like.

Yes, those races would most likely follow you, even though I doubt the rachni in light of cerberus experiments... But so would they follow the paragon player + a couple others which may be doubtful for the renegade choice here. So.. your point being? It's still less of a chance on the entire galactic community isn't it?

Of course you do. If you destroy the base that means you flat out assume the base isn't critical to defeating the reapers. Unless, you're actually suggesting you would blow the base up anyways even if you believed it was critical to defeating the reapers?

No, I make no assumption whatsoever. I outweigh risks against rewards. Besides, belief has nothing to do with decisions like this, it's risk assesment vs potential rewards. Facts, not beliefs.

First of all, having technology on par with the reapers is better than having technology weaker than theirs. So I don't see why you're even bringing this up.

Well, maybe to show you that it isn't going to be a critical advantage? Furthermore, it's their technology so they know it better than us. They have the intricate advantage in an even battle.

Secondly, we don't know how many reapers there are or how much of this new technology can produce and how many ships or whatever could make use of it at this point. Either way, there is no point in worrying about that, because something is better than nothing in this case.

Sovereign:
"We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world."

Let's assume that's quite alot ok?

Logically we can assume we need the same numbers or more if we want to stand a fighting chance against the reapers. That probably means upgrading just about every ship the galaxy has. Undoable in just about any reasonable amount of time. I'd like to add that I find you have a distinct lack of knowledge about Mass Effect... you should've known about this. Also, if they can annihilate every species so far for billions of year, one may expect it's going to be atleast hundreds.

I need more than a drop of water in a scorching desert. Technology from the base will never ever cut it as a critical advantage in any reasonable thoughtprocess.

Finally, we don't know how long it will be until the reapers arrive, so you can't really guess how long it will take to manufacture and distribute whatever technology we gain from the base assuming any. Also, if time is limited, then the smart thing to do is reverse engineer technology from the collector base. Because, the alternative would be to either develop our technology naturally or just try to develop along some alternate path which would take much longer to reach the same level as the reapers.

Indeed we don't, yet we can assume it's going to be soon since they're already late with their harvesting and thus we're already past their expected technology level. It doesn't matter if you want to reverse engineer their technology, fact remains it's theirs and they know better how to use it. You're always at a distinct disadvantage if you follow that road. You're doing battle on their terms, not your own. I'd rather put the collective minds of the galaxy together on the schematics of the reaper you have and see what will come of that. You will need a massive surprise if you're going to beat them, which their own technology won't be. If it may help, that's to be seen though. That's just a risk paragons take in light of the other potential risks of keeping the base would pose.

Finally, I think you need to knock off on the potential critical advantage bussiness, it's flawed on so many levels. 

Modifié par Zavox, 13 décembre 2010 - 08:23 .

[Wolfknight581]

This is all irrelevant. The collector base is a trap. Just like the Mass Relay and the Citadel were.

[Sidac]

Pfft. The base is my home. The only places for my genocidal renegade to hide out.

[Moiaussi]

Zavox wrote...

"I said previous that the collector base was not designed around
indoctrinating its inhabitants like the reapers apparently were. [b]The
collectors were engineered and didn't need to be indoctrinated

Neither were the reapers. The reapers didn't need to indoctrinate themselves.

The reaper derelect didn't seem to indoctrinate Shep and crew while they were on it either. It is a slower more subtle process.

It also might not even turn on unless the base is abandoned.

You are just assuming that it doesn't.

[Zavox]

Moiaussi wrote...

Zavox wrote...

"I said previous that the collector base was not designed around
indoctrinating its inhabitants like the reapers apparently were. [b]The
collectors were engineered and didn't need to be indoctrinated

Neither were the reapers. The reapers didn't need to indoctrinate themselves.

The reaper derelect didn't seem to indoctrinate Shep and crew while they were on it either. It is a slower more subtle process.

It also might not even turn on unless the base is abandoned.

You are just assuming that it doesn't.

Just to avoid confussion, that's Inverness Moon's writing, I just merely quoted it.

[lovgreno]

Pwner1323 wrote...

We're never going to see the end of the collector base threads are we.....

Since it's practicaly impossible to say who is right or wrong (this is a concept some have problems with) untill ME3 ends, no not for a long time.

[Jagri]

Dang it! Joke reply gets more focus then point made reply here...



That seems very short sighted given the goals established by Harbinger in general. Humans have proven to be successful material in producing more Reapers and the current invasion of earth through the trailer supports that goal. If the Reapers were intent on simply ending us as a threat all life on earth could have been ended within a matter of minutes. For them to take a week to kill 9 million people seems a bit lacking... If not for the fact they are collecting both dead and living human begins in order to process them as Husks or send back to the Collector Base in order to further continue production of the human reaper(s).



People must remember the Reapers need humanity. They suffered during the last cycle with the Protheans because their genetic material wasn't capable of supporting the construction of new reapers. Likely the reason why the Collectors exsist so they could report which races the Reapers should harvest and with their base help process them.



While production time and materials need to produce a Reaper can be debated the evidence suggests they are harvesting us and the Collector Base is the center of that operation(or was at least during the events of Mass Effect 2). If destroy it would be logical to assume a Reaper Harvestor would exsist to store living and dead humans in order to use them in the future when another base is constructed.



Of course its harder to poke holes at this then the over used plot I thrown up...

[Arijharn]

Blze001 wrote...

My Shep is brutally pragmatic. She saved the base, saved the rachni and rewrote the geth because the bigger threat is in the short-term. Once the Reapers have had their synthetic asses handed to them on a silver platter, then she'll see about punting TIM half-way across the galaxy.

Right now her army looks like this:
Council races. (Fully expecting the council to ****** about, but luckily the military aspects of those races will more than likely see the storm on the horizon)
Rachni. (They have a grudge against the Reapers too? Welcome aboard, you weird buggy thingies you!)
Geth. (Rewrote heretics, implored the Flotilla not to go to war.)
Quarians. (How 'bout y'all take your anger on A.Is out on the Reapers!)
Cerberus with access to Collector tech (And she is fully expecting that to bite her in the ass, but the enemy of my enemy...)
Krogan (Saved the genophage cure in case we need more Krogan stat)
Killed Vido. (Maybe Zaeed can step in, get the Blue Suns gunning with us. Every little bit helps)

So, yeah, bring it you big bug-like bastards.

That was mainly my thought processes too, other than the fact that I rescued the Workers. In an ideal world I would have brought more than just Zaeed and my other party member and split the crew into doing both, but meh.

I justified the saving of the workers because if I was a worker I'd want to be saved, and I didn't think Zaeed's loyalty was worth the cost in potential equipment lost (I reasoned that trained workers would be able to save at least a large portion of the refinery through fail safe's that they're trained to use) or well, the lives either.

Of course, that didn't matter anyway because I could save the workers and get Zaeed's loyalty, but that's a complaint for another time.

[Nightwriter]

Inverness Moon wrote...

I don't have to tell anyone what I did with the base, I don't have to associate myself with Cerberus anymore afterwards. People would have no more reason to believe I am an ally of Cerberus than someone who destroyed the base.

Well I think the natural thought process is that you can hardly take the base out of Cerberus's possession once they have it, meaning you'll still need to work with them somehow, some way.

Whereas if you destroyed it, you've done a lot to make Cerberus unhappy, the relationship is now strained, and you don't really need them as much because the base has been destroyed.

[Arijharn]

In Exile wrote...
The issue with this is that we have no idea that the base has any useful technology. It was a giant factory that melted people down to produce human slurpee and make a reaper. We have no idea if it had weapon schematics, data on the reapers, anything.

In fact, it wouldn't make sense for it to. If someone captured an a tank factory, they wouldn't get schematics on how to build F15s. All we could learn from the factory is how reapers are made, which might not get us any closer to killing them.

Begging your pardon, but I don't think your analogy is completely correct. Remember, the Collector Base was their 'homeworld' implying that it holds all the technological gains of the 'species.' Including yes, the F-15's. Of course we don't know for sure if the CB actually has any useful technology, but we're in a better position to find out if it's destroyed for reasons that I think are rather obvious.

We know that it has schematics on how to build a Reaper somewhere though (or at least, there's a very high chance that there is) because that's what they were doing. I can't say for sure because I'm not in the industry, but to me it would just make sense that a construction work site responsible for building an office would have the schematics on how to build the office right there.
 

But we have no idea what technology they had. Mostly they were using some kind of organic/machine hybrid tech, and everything else was designed to make human slurpee for reaper secks. I'm not seeing how human slurpee is instrumental to saving human lives.

We'll find out for sure what technology they have... if we saved the base. Destroying the base is like trying to piece the evolutionary history of Earth together if you destroyed not just the Natural History Museum in England (har... maybe that's what the Reapers were targeting?) but all Mueseum's in the world, how can you discover for sure if you pre-emptively destroy it on the basis of what ifs? Don't you see that doing so is over-melodramatic, and isn't helping your position at all. Honestly, and I certainly don't intend for this to be rude, but doing so just seems so short sighted, that you aren't willing to actually investigate it for a potential holy grail, because keeping it doesn't preclude it's destruction later anyway.

If we know the schematics for a Reaper, then we could potentially plot weak points for sustained assault. Maybe we'll be able to use the Force to fire proton torpedoes down two very narrow shafts? Just think what would have happened to the Rebel alliance if they didn't send spies to steal/discover the schematics for the Death Star?
Maybe for example, we'll be able to see structural loading issues, or perhaps the shield isn't as strong when exposed to certain weapon systems or whatever.... perhaps we could even introduce our own Independence Day viruses courtesy of Macbooks?

But that assumes thare is useful technology there. If we gave cavemen iphones, they're not suddenly reverse engineering that. If reaper tech is too advanced, even if it exists, we can do nothing with it.

Collector technology is said to be 15 years ahead of galactic standard, schematics are schematics. We may not be able to build Reapers (um... why would we want too?) but I think you're grossly underestimating the potential they may bring (because what else do you have?).

If CB technology is 15 years ahead, it just means that they're 15 years ahead, not that it's unattainable. If you have the Collector Base, perhaps you can activate the button that says: "Manufacture Particle Beam Rifles?" and now that you have it's design schematics, now your scientists may have a better chance of understanding it.

The way I see it, considering Reaper shield technology is apparently 'impervious to Dreadnought firepower' then it seems to me that you need something else to adequately combat them. Truth to be told, you may find it heroic to charge your mass forces into Reaper fire arcs with your allies, but I view such an action to be... well, catastrophic. In the end, you have your heroic last stand, but what did it accomplish other than creating a new debris field?

And this doesn't account for the potential risk of indoctrination.

The only risk I see is the Reaper carcass in the basement, but I don't think Cerberus hasn't learnt from it's past actions (unless they just remain BioWare stupid in all honesty), I find it implausible that the Collector Base itself can indoctrinate (due to it's location and remoteness) and more to the point, I don't think Indoctrination is going to be a threat as much now that our teams are actively aware of its influence.

But to be a little brutal (but honest) Indoctrination is something that needs to be studied asap anyway, and to sound rather heartless, I think studying the effects of Indoctrination would be more beneficial in the long term if it was performed before the Reapers arrive than otherwise.

[Inverness Moon]

Zavox wrote...

Ah, yes, obviously the reapers make it so you can just plug-in & go anything they use, even though they don't want you to use it. Nevertheless, it was still not a defense mechanism like you suggested.

Maybe you missed the part in the game where plugging the IFF into the ship is exactly what they did. That is the entire reason they got infected with the virus, because they used the IFF they got from the reaper rather than making their own. A virus being installed on the IFF is obviously a defensive mechanism designed to spring a trap which is exactly what happened.

Zavox wrote...

Wasn't it obvious?

No, it isn't. If you're trying to say that the collectors came to be from the indoctrination of the protheans then you're wrong. This is discussed in detail in the game especially by Mordin.

Zavox wrote...

Wow, you seriously figure you can keep such a thing secret? First of all, your entire crew (or did you let them all die?) knows you're allied with Cerberus. So does the Shadowbroker. Furthermore, how the hell do you expect Cerberus ships to pass the Omega 4 relay without being noticed, or even come back for that matter? It's too big a secret to keep, it's bound to come out. Way too many variables man, I could even name a couple more if you'd like.

Yes, those races would most likely follow you, even though I doubt the rachni in light of cerberus experiments... But so would they follow the paragon player + a couple others which may be doubtful for the renegade choice here. So.. your point being? It's still less of a chance on the entire galactic community isn't it?

First of all, all of my crew members are loyal to me. They all know what is at stake with the reapers and they will only tell who I allow them to tell.

Secondly, if you've played the Shadow Broker DLC you'd know why that isn't a problem.

Thirdly, Cerberus is not going to go flying ships around that are clearly identified as belonging to Cerberus when they're trying to keep their movements a secret. The Normandy SR2 was not intended to be a secret for obvious reasons. And really, how would people seeing unknown ships going through the relay lead to them finding out that I gave the collector base to Cerberus? Even if they did identify the ships as Cerberus vessels they couldn't reach that conclusion so easily.

Finally, the rachni queen isn't just going to refuse to ally with the one who spared her life in the face of the reaper threat just because she doesn't agree with one of my decisions. There would only be less chance of gaining the allegiance of all the powers if the truth got out, as I said before, and that is only if that potential ally doesn't completely believe in the threat of the reapers. If they did comprehend the reaper threat, then there is no good explanation for them refusing to ally based on what I did with the collector base.

For some race or group not to work with me, despite the reaper threat, because I gave that base to Cerberus would mean that they consider Cerberus more of a threat than the reapers. That is exactly how many base-destroyers think and is ridiculous in my opinion.

Zavox wrote...

No, I make no assumption whatsoever. I outweigh risks against rewards. Besides, belief has nothing to do with decisions like this, it's risk assesment vs potential rewards. Facts, not beliefs.

The only way you can destroy the base while having the goal of defeating the reapers is if you believe the base isn't essential to defeating the reapers. Since there is no proof of that, you're making a pretty big assumption.

Zavox wrote...

Well, maybe to show you that it isn't going to be a critical advantage? Furthermore, it's their technology so they know it better than us. They have the intricate advantage in an even battle.

We don't know how much an advantage it will be until the conflict begins. Secondly, the reapers knowing the technology better isn't much of a point. Space combat in mass effect is relatively simple. If technology from the collectors base allows all ships to quadruple their offensive and defensive power, that means more reapers are going to die. It's not rocket science.

Zavox wrote...

Sovereign:
"We are legion. The time of our return is coming. Our numbers will darken the sky of every world."

Let's assume that's quite alot ok?

Logically we can assume we need the same numbers or more if we want to stand a fighting chance against the reapers. That probably means upgrading just about every ship the galaxy has. Undoable in just about any reasonable amount of time. I'd like to add that I find you have a distinct lack of knowledge about Mass Effect... you should've known about this. Also, if they can annihilate every species so far for billions of year, one may expect it's going to be atleast hundreds.

I need more than a drop of water in a scorching desert. Technology from the base will never ever cut it as a critical advantage in any reasonable thoughtprocess.

The only way your argument makes sense to me is if you're implying that I can either go with the technology upgrades from the collector base or go with the galactic alliance. I completely disagree with that. You haven't been able to convince me that I can't have both. I would use the advanced technology to upgrade as many ships as possible before the reapers arrive.

If that isn't what you're implying then are you seriously suggesting I shouldn't try upgrading as many ships as possible just because I might not finish in time?

Finally, unless you have proof that the technology in the base won't result in a critical or essential advantage, you have no justification for destroying it.

Zavox wrote...

Indeed we don't, yet we can assume it's going to be soon since they're already late with their harvesting and thus we're already past their expected technology level. It doesn't matter if you want to reverse engineer their technology, fact remains it's theirs and they know better how to use it. You're always at a distinct disadvantage if you follow that road. You're doing battle on their terms, not your own. I'd rather put the collective minds of the galaxy together on the schematics of the reaper you have and see what will come of that. You will need a massive surprise if you're going to beat them, which their own technology won't be. If it may help, that's to be seen though. That's just a risk paragons take in light of the other potential risks of keeping the base would pose.

Your reasoning just doesn't cut it in the Mass Effect universe. As I said before, space battles are not rocket science. The reapers are huge targets, we just need weapons strong enough to punch through their barriers, and either speed to get out of the way of their weapons or defenses that actually have some resistance. You also are consistently misleading when you refer to "their technology" as if I mean something other than a significant increase in offensive and defensive capabilities. Why don't you explain what you mean when you say "their technology" and how the reapers are better at it than us.

As for putting the collective minds of the galaxy together on the schematics of a reaper, are you talking about the schematics you blew up with the collector base? Good luck with that.

Of course, reapers also use their indoctrination as a very powerful weapon. The collector base presents an opportunity to learn about it and discover some way to deal with it before the reapers begin to use it on us like they did the protheans. Many base-destroyers ignore this when they destroy the base. Because that base is most likely going to be the only way you're going to learn about it before the reapers arrive.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 13 décembre 2010 - 11:58 .

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...
Well I think the natural thought process is that you can hardly take the base out of Cerberus's possession once they have it, meaning you'll still need to work with them somehow, some way.

Whereas if you destroyed it, you've done a lot to make Cerberus unhappy, the relationship is now strained, and you don't really need them as much because the base has been destroyed.

I agree that is a valid thought process, but I can't see any other way for the other species/Council or even the Alliance to get it's hands on it due to it's location in the middle of the Terminus Systems.

I think I've said this before as well.

In this case, I find it more preferable to leave it to Cerberus than just leaving it to rot in the core.

[Schneidend]

OmegaXI wrote...

Looks like we are going to need it.

Why would I "need" a Cerberus science team to get indoctrinated by an obvious trap?

[Inverness Moon]

Nightwriter wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

I don't have to tell anyone what I did with the base, I don't have to associate myself with Cerberus anymore afterwards. People would have no more reason to believe I am an ally of Cerberus than someone who destroyed the base.

Well I think the natural thought process is that you can hardly take the base out of Cerberus's possession once they have it, meaning you'll still need to work with them somehow, some way.

Whereas if you destroyed it, you've done a lot to make Cerberus unhappy, the relationship is now strained, and you don't really need them as much because the base has been destroyed.

Well I know that, I would still be working with Cerberus in secret. The quantum entanglement communication system has infinite range and cannot be intercepted. But I don't have to tell the whole galaxy I'm still working with Cerberus. I'll just lie or be misleading about the whole ordeal in order to help the alliance building effort.

[Nightwriter]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Well I know that, I would still be working with Cerberus in secret. The quantum entanglement communication system has infinite range and cannot be intercepted. But I don't have to tell the whole galaxy I'm still working with Cerberus. I'll just lie or be misleading about the whole ordeal in order to help the alliance building effort.

Isn't that assuming you will have freedoms that are not guaranteed? You cannot expect that your Shepard will be given the option to tell convenient lies. You are limited to whatever actions BioWare allows you to take.

Assuming you have absolute free will is good for making non-metagaming arguments for your decisions, but making savvy game choices involves taking into account that your actions are limited. As it is, it's going to be very hard to convince the Council you're not working with Cerberus anymore.

[Arijharn]

I don't see that the Council has much choice other than to work with you and Cerberus, temporarily burying the hatchet as it were.

[Vaenier]

Nightwriter wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Well I know that, I would still be working with Cerberus in secret. The quantum entanglement communication system has infinite range and cannot be intercepted. But I don't have to tell the whole galaxy I'm still working with Cerberus. I'll just lie or be misleading about the whole ordeal in order to help the alliance building effort.

Isn't that assuming you will have freedoms that are not guaranteed? You cannot expect that your Shepard will be given the option to tell convenient lies. You are limited to whatever actions BioWare allows you to take.

Assuming you have absolute free will is good for making non-metagaming arguments for your decisions, but making savvy game choices involves taking into account that your actions are limited. As it is, it's going to be very hard to convince the Council you're not working with Cerberus anymore.

If that is the case, why bother creating the illusion of choice at all? If Bioware wants to railroad players down a specific plot, then just do it, they shouldnt pretend to be letting players shape their own Shepard.

Modifié par Vaenier, 14 décembre 2010 - 12:18 .

[lovgreno]

I think we can also allow ourselves to make the choice that seems most fun to play even if we may not be able to make unfailable in game reasons for it. After all this is just a game for fun and not a competition on who are always right on the forums (I think we will all be more or less proven wrong anyway). If you like Cerberus it seems like a good idea to keep it as it may mean you get to work more for them. Personaly I am getting a bit bored of them though. TIMmys mysteriousness and Cerberus way of using controversial methods for possible fast results was degraded into clumsy cartoon villains rather fast. So I want something new and different in ME3 and this is all the reason I need to blow up the base.

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

I agree that is a valid thought process, but I can't see any other way for the other species/Council or even the Alliance to get it's hands on it due to it's location in the middle of the Terminus Systems.

I think I've said this before as well.

In this case, I find it more preferable to leave it to Cerberus than just leaving it to rot in the core.

How did the Council get to Ilos to check on Vigil? The Mu Relay is in the Terminus Systems.

They can go into the Terminus Systems, when they want to. The lazy bastards.

[Nightwriter]

Vaenier wrote...

If that is the case, why bother creating the illusion of choice at all? If Bioware wants to railroad players down a specific plot, then just do it, they shouldnt pretend to be letting players shape their own Shepard.

Failing to simulate absolute free will or a limitless supply of choices is hardly robbing us of choice altogether.

In this case, players would actually complain if there was a convenient workaround which negated the negative consequences of one of the base decisions. The going consensus seems to be that there should be good and bad consequences for either choice. Renegade Shepard shouldn't be able to lie his way out of bad political relations, just like paragon Shepard shouldn't be able to charm his way out of losing lives that could have been saved if he'd kept the base. That is simply good choice/consequence management.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

I agree that is a valid thought process, but I can't see any other way for the other species/Council or even the Alliance to get it's hands on it due to it's location in the middle of the Terminus Systems.

I think I've said this before as well.

In this case, I find it more preferable to leave it to Cerberus than just leaving it to rot in the core.

How did the Council get to Ilos to check on Vigil? The Mu Relay is in the Terminus Systems.

They can go into the Terminus Systems, when they want to. The lazy bastards.

I think there's a difference between say a diplomatic voyage, and parking forces permanently in an area close to the 'political heart' of the Terminus Systems, especially since it's an area that they know of, but can't actually reach. It's a recipe for disaster.

How would you like it if your neighbour was digging in your backyard? And they camped in the woods behind it?

[Vaenier]

Nightwriter wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

If that is the case, why bother creating the illusion of choice at all? If Bioware wants to railroad players down a specific plot, then just do it, they shouldnt pretend to be letting players shape their own Shepard.

Failing to simulate absolute free will or a limitless supply of choices is hardly robbing us of choice altogether.

In this case, players would actually complain if there was a convenient workaround which negated the negative consequences of one of the base decisions. The going consensus seems to be that there should be good and bad consequences for either choice. Renegade Shepard shouldn't be able to lie his way out of bad political relations, just like paragon Shepard shouldn't be able to charm his way out of losing lives that could have been saved if he'd kept the base. That is simply good choice/consequence management.

This is imposing consequences not based on actions, but based on the fact they are choices.
its like a choice between 50$ and 20$, but because you want to make it fair, if you take the 50$, you have to give the guy 30$...

[Nightwriter]

Vaenier wrote...

This is imposing consequences not based on actions, but based on the fact they are choices.
its like a choice between 50$ and 20$, but because you want to make it fair, if you take the 50$, you have to give the guy 30$...

Imposing consequences based on the fact that they are choices is exactly what it is. However, this statement is hardly damning.

MAKE CHOICES MATTER MAKE CHOICES MATTER is a demand cried from every mountain, hilltop and bell tower on the forums. And a choice's significance is weighed by its consequences. Negate the consequences, invalidate the choice.

[Inverness Moon]

Nightwriter wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Well I know that, I would still be working with Cerberus in secret. The quantum entanglement communication system has infinite range and cannot be intercepted. But I don't have to tell the whole galaxy I'm still working with Cerberus. I'll just lie or be misleading about the whole ordeal in order to help the alliance building effort.

Isn't that assuming you will have freedoms that are not guaranteed? You cannot expect that your Shepard will be given the option to tell convenient lies. You are limited to whatever actions BioWare allows you to take.

Assuming you have absolute free will is good for making non-metagaming arguments for your decisions, but making savvy game choices involves taking into account that your actions are limited. As it is, it's going to be very hard to convince the Council you're not working with Cerberus anymore.

Everything in this thread has been from an in-character perspective.