650 réponses à ce sujet

[MizzNaaa]

AngusJimiKeith wrote...

lets see......
i'll need
-the Cain
-the ME1 squad
-the ME2 squad
-the Normandy
-a fleet consisting of: Enterprise-A, Enterprise-D, both death stars, the Spirit of Fire, the Pillar of Autumn, and every current ME drednaught. boom.

I second that!

[Sajuro]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Sajuro wrote...

Then Bioware must have been beating them with the stupid bat since before the beginning of Mass Effect 1. Cerberus safety protocol is nonexistent, not on Pragia, not on the colony that got taken over by Thorian creepers, and not on the derelict Reaper. And we can't forget Overlord
Cerberus must have had successful operations, but since we haven't seen them succeed other than Lazerus (which went to **** shortly there after), we can't use them to judge Cerberus only what we have seen/ had more evidence of than "trust us, it happened"

A Cerberus project being a failure doesn't mean safety protocol is nonexistent. That is a false dichotomy.

It isn't that one project failed that means there is no safety protocol, it is that so many projects imploded so spectacularly that means they might as well as be nonexistant. Consider the cluster**** which was the Alerai, about as bad as the Average Cerberus project and why did it happen? Because Rael said to turn off and bypass safety protocols.

[Jagri]

Evidently the research Cerberus has been attempting to take on for the past two years in the Mass Effect universe is too much for them to handle. The train wreck of incidents that currently plague them is undeniable.

I know some blame the writers for making Cerberus look inept but I blame them for the plot driven successes in which supporters cling to desperately. So they saved Shepard and gave him access to resources and technology is that enough in the eyes of others to buy Shepard's from the oaths he or she sworn when becoming a Alliance Officer? Is it more then the oaths sworn to protect the galaxy as a spectre?

In the end ether people are going to die for the ideals of Shepard... Keep the base... Destroy the base ether of these choices will lead to a future someone is going to die for that decision. I rather would like to know I died for the possability of a better future then be sacrificed knowing my children while saved will be subject to the the evils that may or will fellow.

Call that self-rightous and noble bull crap but I think personally I am just being greedy wanting to think I died for something right then live for some wrong. I still hate the idea of others having to die for my ideals or logic but what choice does the galaxy have when Shepard is the one who has fought the odds to that point to make that choice?

Modifié par Jagri, 17 décembre 2010 - 08:16 .

[Inverness Moon]

Jagri wrote...

Dismissing a race's capabilites to wage war on the galaxy successfully for several cycles against verious races and civilizations is... Foolish. Evidently I will have to categorize perspective and views based on your side of the debate as simple "Humans are special" or arrogance.

I'm not dismissing the reaper's capabilities, but rather your unrealistic hype of their capabilities.

Jagri wrote...

While I cannot provide detail information on the capabilities the Reapers I can put up a example. If you were to take a modern carrier fleet back in time to the events of WWII its abilities would be consider "Magic" by everyone even thou they have the base of that technology. Of course with the right minds looking over a CVN they might come to grasp how it works or its fighter wings. So in a span of 67 year (( Traveled back to 1943 )) technology would be hard to grasp if not almost alien to the people of those times yet they have the the origins of the technology which makes up a modern battle fleet. Now the people of the Mass Effect universe has the basic origins of Mass Effect technology but here comes this race who has developed and used it for potentially millions of years.

You do know that aircraft carriers existed during World War 2, right? You're saying that people would consider what we have now "magic" instead of just more advanced technology. That is ridiculous.

Even before Retribution explained how Harbinger was controlling bodies from a great distance, we already knew that what both Sovereign and Harbinger achieved is something that could be theoretically done with nanomachines (which aren't magic), which turned out to be the case.

You may consider such things magical and beyond your comprehension but I don't.

Jagri wrote...

People back in WWII as they stumbled on the radar I am sure didn't think it could be circumvented ether but then here comes the F-22 Raptor ((Would not be used on a modern carrier group but just used as a example)). While TIM and Cerberus may have a quantum entanglement communication device it doesn't mean they know exactly everything about it. That within the system there could be expolits.

Thats as far as I am willing to break it down before throwing in the towel.

And I already explained that with quantum entanglement communication there is nothing that can be intercepted. That is what we know about it. I don't feel like repeating myself. Stop assuming that there is more to be known.

Jagri wrote...

Oh and on a side note if people are using Mass Effect technology then they are moving along a predictable path. The Quantum entanglement communication device would likely be known as a possiable developement so logically wouldn't the Reapers have counter measures for such devices? 

No, that isn't logical. Just because a technology exists doesn't mean a countermeasure exists to deal with it. This is the same flawed logic you used previously. You don't actually have a reason to explain how the reapers would be able to intercept a form of communication where no medium exists to be intercepted, so you just fall back on the idea that they automatically must have a countermeasure because they've used it longer than us.

Many people seem to forget that the reapers are also predictable for using mass effect technology. We just need powerful enough weapons to pierce their kinetic barriers to make dealing with them much easier.

Reiella wrote...

However, it does mean their safety protocol was insufficent.

That might be true, but it is hard to prepare for the unknown unknowns. I'd say indoctrination was one of those unknown unknowns for the team that was on the derelict reaper.

[Dean_the_Young]

How many Cerberus projects have failed for the same reason? And how many failed because of actual safety failures, as opposed to someone else wrecking the system they had in place?

[Sidac]

a lot, but how many times has Cerberus done experiments that no one else was willing to do? First times are always the fuzziest and most dangerous.

[Jagri]

Inverness Moon wrote...
I'm not dismissing the reaper's capabilities, but rather your unrealistic hype of their capabilities.

Unrealistic? Such as a race of machines that live in the void of dark space and come ever 50,000 years to wipe out all life in the galaxy. Having done so successfully through several cycles against many races and civilization.

How hard must the idea be hammered in this is a race that has been using and perfecting technology that the human race has just stumbled on within years.

You do know that aircraft carriers existed during World War 2, right? You're saying that people would consider what we have now "magic" instead of just more advanced technology. That is ridiculous.

Even before Retribution explained how Harbinger was controlling bodies from a great distance, we already knew that what both Sovereign and Harbinger achieved is something that could be theoretically done with nanomachines (which aren't magic), which turned out to be the case.

You may consider such things magical and beyond your comprehension but I don't.

Your not paying attention... It was stated they have the base for the technology... You know what that means right? They had carriers which are the base technology of todays carriers. What would be magic them is how fast it can move and the nuclear power planet. It could travel to Japan within weeks and be capable of destroying their fleet completely. Percision guided weapons could take out targets accurately when all they could hope for was to carpet bomb the crap out of a area in hopes of hitting one target.

But evidently your not paying attention or you just don't understand. Ether way a wasted effort.

And I already explained that with quantum entanglement communication there is nothing that can be intercepted. That is what we know about it. I don't feel like repeating myself. Stop assuming that there is more to be known.

Wait... Stop assuming that there is more to known? That must be the most ignorant thing I ever heard... Science is is a always expanding field. Scientist just don't stop looking into the laws of the universe thinking "Well we know everything there is to know about this subject!" 

No, that isn't logical. Just because a technology exists doesn't mean a countermeasure exists to deal with it. This is the same flawed logic you used previously. You don't actually have a reason to explain how the reapers would be able to intercept a form of communication where no medium exists to be intercepted, so you just fall back on the idea that they automatically must have a countermeasure because they've used it longer than us.

Many people seem to forget that the reapers are also predictable for using mass effect technology. We just need powerful enough weapons to pierce their kinetic barriers to make dealing with them much easier.

History has seen to codes and communications being broken. That man would devise a tactic, weapon, or technology and that their enemies would counter that in order to continue conflict. Use any excuse you like but you make the same mistakes others have before in history.

Germans in WWII believe their code unbreakable... is one such example

But there has been a race that was able to produce a plantary weapon supposely that could pierce the barriers of the Reapers. It was the reason given why the Derelict Reaper was disabled. Appearntly that did not save their civilization however.

Thats it for me... Appearently your logic is superior to the lessions learned in history.

Modifié par Jagri, 17 décembre 2010 - 09:49 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Jagri, science is an expanding field. But it is not a changing field. Things proven in the past remain true in the future. They do not change no matter how much more you understand them: you can expand your knowledge of why a chemical reaction occurs, you can expand your knowledge of how fire works, but fire and chemistry don't change by knowing more about them. Science isn't about changing the immutable laws of nature, it's finding more and more applications of those rules. The rules themselves, once found, don't change.

[Vaenier]

Jagri wrote...

No, that isn't logical. Just because a technology exists doesn't mean a countermeasure exists to deal with it. This is the same flawed logic you used previously. You don't actually have a reason to explain how the reapers would be able to intercept a form of communication where no medium exists to be intercepted, so you just fall back on the idea that they automatically must have a countermeasure because they've used it longer than us.

Many people seem to forget that the reapers are also predictable for using mass effect technology. We just need powerful enough weapons to pierce their kinetic barriers to make dealing with them much easier.

History has seen to codes and communications being broken. That man would devise a tactic, weapon, or technology and that their enemies would counter that in order to continue conflict. Use any excuse you like but you make the same mistakes others have before in history.

Germans in WWII believe their code unbreakable... is one such example

I am sorry, I dont like to insult people, but you are a moron.

You should learn how Quantum entanglement works in Mass Effect [dont bother reading about real Quantum Entanglement, Mass effect is abusing it greatly]. You would understand there is no signal to intercept. Two particles are linked outside of space/time. they can transmit data without any actual force or energy propegating through the universe. there is nothing to intercept. The only possible way to intercept the QE link is to get a hold of one of the ends. There is no code, no abstract construct, its just plain old physics.

It would take an act of god to somehow manipulate the link. If they are capable of doing that, they could just cause an atom of Shep to become antimater and go boom. As much as Bioware wants you to believe, Reapers are not gods, they are not even good villians. They are just a very poorly organised plot device.

[Jagri]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Jagri, science is an expanding field. But it is not a changing field. Things proven in the past remain true in the future. They do not change no matter how much more you understand them: you can expand your knowledge of why a chemical reaction occurs, you can expand your knowledge of how fire works, but fire and chemistry don't change by knowing more about them. Science isn't about changing the immutable laws of nature, it's finding more and more applications of those rules. The rules themselves, once found, don't change.

It doesn't change the laws of nature however knowing chemistry involed with how a fire is created has lead to methods of putting them out. Certain mixture of chemicals that focus on the element of the fire itself. Co2, PKP, AFFF, etc.

I am sorry, I dont like to insult people, but you are a moron.

You should learn how Quantum entanglement works in Mass Effect [dont bother reading about real Quantum Entanglement, Mass effect is abusing it greatly]. You would understand there is no signal to intercept. Two particles are linked outside of space/time. they can transmit data without any actual force or energy propegating through the universe. there is nothing to intercept. The only possible way to intercept the QE link is to get a hold of one of the ends. There is no code, no abstract construct, its just plain old physics.

It would take an act of god to somehow manipulate the link. If they are capable of doing that, they could just cause an atom of Shep to become antimater and go boom. As much as Bioware wants you to believe, Reapers are not gods, they are not even good villians. They are just a very poorly organised plot device.

Here I was trying to study quantum entanglement which is at the heart of EPR Paradox deveopled by Albert Einstein, Boris Podlsky, and Nathan Rosen. Sorry then was thinking outside of the Mass Effect lore... But given Reapers might be a poorly organized plot device TIM and Cerberus however have been centered around countless debates so they must be doing something right there.

Modifié par Jagri, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:27 .

[jbblue05]

Exile Isan wrote...

\\\\You forgot one. The Listening Post missions after Noveria in ME1. Those Rachni were an escaped Cereberus project.

Should have used better security if they were going to keep a sentient species prisoner. It always make me laugh when Miranda says they "abandoned" that project when they realized they were sentient. I wanted a dialog option to tell her bull crap, you abandoned that project because the subjects escaped and I, Shepard, had to go clean it up. But I'm sure TIM would dismiss it as a rogue cell.

Good point Captain Hindsight

@Killjoy Cutter

It is a slippery slope according to base destroyers giving TIM the base will lead to alien oppresion, slavery, or extinction

Modifié par jbblue05, 17 décembre 2010 - 11:02 .

[In Exile]

Vaenier wrote...
It may be that Reaper tech is dangerous to use wide spread. But with the right protocols, you can easily control it in a lab enviroment. Taking a Reaper shield generator and just strapping it on your ship would be a really stupid thing to do. Instead, you should use that generator in a lab, test fire against it, see what is the most effective way to break it. is there a weakness of it. how can you beat it. use that knowledge gained and share it with your allies. same goes for its weapons.

But this is basically fan-fiction. We have no idea what Reaper tech is dangerous or isn't, or if there's a way to protect it, or anything.

[Knoll Argonar]

One plain, simple question: do we have some real great physics experts here or do we just have some geeks reading too much wikipedia? I'm amazed how both sides talk about these concepts claiming they know better thanthe other one.

Modifié par Knoll Argonar, 17 décembre 2010 - 11:35 .

[Vaenier]

In Exile wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
It may be that Reaper tech is dangerous to use wide spread. But with the right protocols, you can easily control it in a lab enviroment. Taking a Reaper shield generator and just strapping it on your ship would be a really stupid thing to do. Instead, you should use that generator in a lab, test fire against it, see what is the most effective way to break it. is there a weakness of it. how can you beat it. use that knowledge gained and share it with your allies. same goes for its weapons.

But this is basically fan-fiction. We have no idea what Reaper tech is dangerous or isn't, or if there's a way to protect it, or anything.

That is the question. Are they going to ignore it and make another Cerberus **** up mission or will they actually handle it in an intelligent manner. Will Bioware let the player use the asset they has provided to actually do something, or turn it into humans dominate, lols...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

One plain, simple question: do we
have some real great physics experts here or do we just have some geeks
reading too much wikipedia? I'm amazed how both sides talk about these
concepts claiming they know better thanthe other one.

I just read alot of wikipedia. alot of the QE stuff goes right over my head.

Modifié par Vaenier, 17 décembre 2010 - 11:40 .

[TheRevanchist]

My Shepard destroys the base because he feels it isn't needed to win the war. He feels the dangers of something going horribly wrong are greater then the possible rewards that can come from it. TIM is not really a factor in the decision (no matter how much Biowares dialogue makes it so). Shepard does not approve of TIM's methods and will end their partnership as soon as possible. But he is above petty insults like the destroying the base simply to spite TIM.



Also he kinda agrees with the Geth, he feels advancement is possible without depending on Reaper tech. IF advancement is reached this way then should some Reapers escape after ME3 they won't know how to react to tech that is not their own. On top of that the data EDI mined from the base while the team was putting an end to it is enough for Shepard to feel better about the odds.

[Knoll Argonar]

Just as I though. An advice: if you want to really learn something, DON'T READ WIKIPEDIA. You just don't know how many errors it has, specially in Science.

[Vaenier]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Just as I though. An advice: if you want to really learn something, DON'T READ WIKIPEDIA. You just don't know how many errors it has, specially in Science.

I am not trying to build one, just get an idea of the theory behind it. That is in addition to shows on history and discovery. I know enough that it doesnt send a signal, it just instantly shows up at the destination.

[In Exile]

Vaenier wrote...
That is the question. Are they going to ignore it and make another Cerberus **** up mission or will they actually handle it in an intelligent manner. Will Bioware let the player use the asset they has provided to actually do something, or turn it into humans dominate, lols...

It's more than that. Bioware has to give us a constraint. They're the ones that determine whether or not a particular piece of technology will be useful. It's just that both sides of this debate want to talk about the hypothetical dangers or benefits of the base... but we don't know anything about it other than the fact that it makes human slurpee.

I just think it basically boils down to one person saying 'in my fan fiction x happens!''

[Dean_the_Young]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Just as I though. An advice: if you want to really learn something, DON'T READ WIKIPEDIA. You just don't know how many errors it has, specially in Science.

Actually, science-wise Wikipedia is fairly reliable. It's the political/opinion topics you have to watch out for. For general overviews of concepts, though, wiki is a good source of first resort, so long as you don't rely on it.

[Vaenier]

In Exile wrote...

Vaenier wrote...
That is the question. Are they going to ignore it and make another Cerberus **** up mission or will they actually handle it in an intelligent manner. Will Bioware let the player use the asset they has provided to actually do something, or turn it into humans dominate, lols...

It's more than that. Bioware has to give us a constraint. They're the ones that determine whether or not a particular piece of technology will be useful. It's just that both sides of this debate want to talk about the hypothetical dangers or benefits of the base... but we don't know anything about it other than the fact that it makes human slurpee.

I just think it basically boils down to one person saying 'in my fan fiction x happens!''

I think I am complaining that they are giving a choice between shooting myself in the left leg or the right leg, but i rather not shoot myself at all. I want to give the base to the Geth [or council, or myself]. If they get nothing out of it, I dont care. I blow it up and be on my way. There doesnt have to be anything useful, I just rather find out first before blowing it up. I do not want to have the game think i want human dominance because I wanted to save alien lives.

[Knoll Argonar]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Just as I though. An advice: if you want to really learn something, DON'T READ WIKIPEDIA. You just don't know how many errors it has, specially in Science.

Actually, science-wise Wikipedia is fairly reliable. It's the political/opinion topics you have to watch out for. For general overviews of concepts, though, wiki is a good source of first resort, so long as you don't rely on it.

Well, I speak about what I know. I'm in a Biomedicine carreer and I can assure you that I just CAN'T trust Wikipedia in almost anything. I have to use Protein Data Bank, Pubmed, Onim and other sources instead. Example: want to look for information about human insuline? Even its structure is incorrect on Wikipedia.
I know that for general overviews is farily "useful" to use it, but here we're talking about quantum entaglement and its application in Mass Effect universe.

Modifié par Knoll Argonar, 18 décembre 2010 - 12:32 .

[Vaenier]

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Knoll Argonar wrote...

Just as I though. An advice: if you want to really learn something, DON'T READ WIKIPEDIA. You just don't know how many errors it has, specially in Science.

Actually, science-wise Wikipedia is fairly reliable. It's the political/opinion topics you have to watch out for. For general overviews of concepts, though, wiki is a good source of first resort, so long as you don't rely on it.

Well, I speak about what I know. I'm in a Biomedicine carreer and I can assure you that I just CAN'T trust Wikipedia in almost anything. I have to use Protein Data Bank, Pubmed, Onim and other sources instead. Example: want to look for information about human insuline? Even its structure is incorrect on Wikipedia.
I know that for general overviews is farily "useful" to use it, but here we're talking about quantum entaglement and its application in Mass Effect universe.

What, its not rocket surgery. Most of what you know EDI tell you in the game anyway. Mass effect just takes a leap and allows the particle to be manipulated, where as it is impossible to do so in reality. Probably the space wizard mass effect fields...

[SetsunaF]

lazuli wrote...

As long as I can Vanguard Charge a Reaper, I'll be fine.

You plan to level up to DBZ proportions?

[Inverness Moon]

Vaenier and Dean_the_Young have touched upon all of the points I was going to make. I'm pretty much done with this debate for awhile.

[Reiella]

Vaenier wrote...

I am sorry, I dont like to insult people, but you are a moron.

You should learn how Quantum entanglement works in Mass Effect [dont bother reading about real Quantum Entanglement, Mass effect is abusing it greatly]. You would understand there is no signal to intercept. Two particles are linked outside of space/time. they can transmit data without any actual force or energy propegating through the universe. there is nothing to intercept. The only possible way to intercept the QE link is to get a hold of one of the ends. There is no code, no abstract construct, its just plain old physics.

It would take an act of god to somehow manipulate the link. If they are capable of doing that, they could just cause an atom of Shep to become antimater and go boom. As much as Bioware wants you to believe, Reapers are not gods, they are not even good villians. They are just a very poorly organised plot device.

Not sure I follow this quite right, think I'm mis-intepreting it, but it looks like you are trying to defend one contrived plot device in ME by attacking another contrived plot device?

I do so love the pop misunderstanding of quantum theory that's happened because of sci-fantasy though.  It's oh so funny .