650 réponses à ce sujet

[Inverness Moon]

Zavox wrote...

It's also an assumption to suggest keeping the base will result in an increase in technology capable of defeating the reapers before they arrive. (Not to mention producing it in a sufficient amount).

I know, what is your point?

There wasn't a "might" in your post.

Zavox wrote...

Furthermore, I'd like to argue that if there's technology capable of defeating the reapers, which will be in cerberus hands.. they may actually become more powerful than the reapers due to that technology (why else would they be capable of defeating the reapers otherwise?)

The idea of Cerberus becoming more powerful than the reapers seems quite ridiculous to me. The technology from the collector base might be as good as what the reapers have, not better. And if that technology is only as good as what the reapers have, there is no reasonable way a black ops group consisting of 150 people is going to become more powerful than the reapers.

I also never suggested Cerberus alone would be able to defeat the reapers. Cerberus is an organization seriously lacking in manpower compared to the Alliance or any other government. That is why I also dismiss claims that they're going to be more of a threat than the reapers. Cerberus's best course of action at this point is to distribute any offensive and defensive technology gained from the collector base to the Alliance. That way they can combine that advanced technology with the Alliance's manpower and fleets to make a real force to be reckoned with.

[shumworld]

LOL.... this is the best title I've seen after watching the ME3 trailer.

[TuringPoint]

I think we will be able to go after the Illusive Man. At some point.  I was just thinking about how an organization like his might use Reaper technology to build its spy network...

Unlikely, but not impossible if TIM thought it would benefit Cerberus.

Modifié par Alocormin, 12 décembre 2010 - 05:55 .

[Dave of Canada]

Ugh, Collector Base argument is spilling out here...



The Collectors have the best technology in the galaxy, in the novels receiving one piece of technology from them is considered the equivalent of winning the lottery for the people on Omega. This is probably their useless technology as well, they wouldn't really want to give their strong technology to some poor beggar.



It's an assumption but a very logical one that we're going to integrate said technology if we keep the base, the Reapers never expected a species to go in and kick the Collectors in the ass. This technology is miles ahead of what they wanted people to have when they came to reap.



In addition to all this technology, we'd have all the components to build a Reaper (though contrary to what some people believe, Cerberus isn't stupid enough to build one) and we can research their weaknesses and strengths. Imagine the benefits to finding out a cure for indoctrination, you just effectively shut the Reapers out of their bigger weapons.



Cerberus would never use this technology against the other species in large scale, as much as they (the majority) hate aliens they are a very small group of people. Weapons mean nothing when you only have around a hundred operatives and all your weaponry and gear is given to the Alliance when they are deemed safe and good. Worst case scenario, the Alliance use Cerberus technology against the aliens. Though you can hardly fault Cerberus for that.



The whole "Cerberus team will get indocrinated" is odd too, the Base didn't have any security measures because nobody was expected to show up and go there. They wouldn't have an indoctrination field, the writers wouldn't write that unforeseen consequence and TIM isn't rushing for the Collector Base as he did the broken Reaper.

[Zavox]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Zavox wrote...

It's also an assumption to suggest keeping the base will result in an increase in technology capable of defeating the reapers before they arrive. (Not to mention producing it in a sufficient amount).

I know, what is your point?

There wasn't a "might" in your post.

Ah, catching me on words now are we? Premise stays the same, we're both assuming something and thus we both have our reasons to destroy or keep the base. That's my point, I figured it would be kind of obvious...

Inverness Moon wrote...

Zavox wrote...

Furthermore, I'd like to argue that if there's technology capable of defeating the reapers, which will be in cerberus hands.. they may actually become more powerful than the reapers due to that technology (why else would they be capable of defeating the reapers otherwise?)

The idea of Cerberus becoming more powerful than the reapers seems quite ridiculous to me. The technology from the collector base might be as good as what the reapers have, not better. And if that technology is only as good as what the reapers have, there is no reasonable way a black ops group consisting of 150 people is going to become more powerful than the reapers.

I also never suggested Cerberus alone would be able to defeat the reapers. Cerberus is an organization seriously lacking in manpower compared to the Alliance or any other government. That is why I also dismiss claims that they're going to be more of a threat than the reapers. Cerberus's best course of action at this point is to distribute any offensive and defensive technology gained from the collector base to the Alliance. That way they can combine that advanced technology with the Alliance's manpower and fleets to make a real force to be reckoned with.

First of all, I neither said that it was Cerberus alone who would defeat the reapers. I only said it would be their technology and they will decide what they will share and what they will keep. They for example could hold back the information on indoctrination and later use it if they are able to figure it out (scary premise). It's very dangerous to have a xenophobic terrorist agency control such possibly far advanced technology and decide what they will share. Moreover, once the reapers are defeated, Cerberus has all the time to develop into something worse than them. They've got time on their side.

Fact is that they are xenophobic, and anything they will have that is more advanced than current galaxy technology will be desastrous for the other races.

[Annihilator27]

I didnt keep the base. I didnt know, I DIDNT KNOW *sobs*

[Zavox]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Ugh, Collector Base argument is spilling out here...

The Collectors have the best technology in the galaxy, in the novels receiving one piece of technology from them is considered the equivalent of winning the lottery for the people on Omega. This is probably their useless technology as well, they wouldn't really want to give their strong technology to some poor beggar.

It's an assumption but a very logical one that we're going to integrate said technology if we keep the base, the Reapers never expected a species to go in and kick the Collectors in the ass. This technology is miles ahead of what they wanted people to have when they came to reap.

In addition to all this technology, we'd have all the components to build a Reaper (though contrary to what some people believe, Cerberus isn't stupid enough to build one) and we can research their weaknesses and strengths. Imagine the benefits to finding out a cure for indoctrination, you just effectively shut the Reapers out of their bigger weapons.

Cerberus would never use this technology against the other species in large scale, as much as they (the majority) hate aliens they are a very small group of people. Weapons mean nothing when you only have around a hundred operatives and all your weaponry and gear is given to the Alliance when they are deemed safe and good. Worst case scenario, the Alliance use Cerberus technology against the aliens. Though you can hardly fault Cerberus for that.

The whole "Cerberus team will get indocrinated" is odd too, the Base didn't have any security measures because nobody was expected to show up and go there. They wouldn't have an indoctrination field, the writers wouldn't write that unforeseen consequence and TIM isn't rushing for the Collector Base as he did the broken Reaper.

I hope you've read the Retribution novel, it kind of conveys what dangerous experiments Cerberus does with unknown technology. Or for that matter, Mass Effect 1 and 2 would do as examples aswell.
They do horrid experiments without enough safety measures so they do not screw up. I for one am not convinced they would not 'accidentally' something bad.

Furthermore, you're assuming that Cerberus has the goodwill to share the technology with the Alliance and maybe other races. They may just aswell use it as a bargaining chip or just share those things that they want to share and keep the potentially useful technology in establishing human dominance later on for themselves.
They are actively making a case for human (,paragon Shepard even went as far as to say Cerberus,) dominance, thus you can rightly assume they will use anything they find for human benefit, and not the galaxy in the long term.

Modifié par Zavox, 12 décembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[TuringPoint]

The Collector Base is a Reaper weapon. Maybe it is logical to "assume" there would be Reaper schematics neatly laid out and the weaknesses circled in charts and diagrams. It's also logical to assume there is nothing we could get out of it without comparable drawbacks, especially with Cerberus calling the shots on who sees what.  Also logical to assume the Reapers are the only ones who could make use of it.

Modifié par Alocormin, 12 décembre 2010 - 06:26 .

[Dave of Canada]

Zavox wrote...

I hope you've read the Retribution novel, it kind of conveys what dangerous experiments Cerberus does with unknown technology. Or for that matter, Mass Effect 1 and 2 would do as examples aswell.
They do horrid experiments without enough safety measures so they do not screw up. I for one am not convinced they would not 'accidentally' something bad.

I've read it and the only screw up was when the Turians involved themselves where they shouldn't have. Had the Turians not involved themselves and let Grayson escape, nothing would've happened. The project was also a success as we learned a lot more about indocrination and Reaper methods / tech.

Furthermore, you're assuming that Cerberus has the goodwill to share the technology with the Alliance and maybe other races.

Cerberus has been known to give their technology to the Alliance for the benefit of all humanity.

They may just aswell use it as a bargaining chip or just share those things that they want to share and keep the potentially useful technology in establishing human dominance later on for themselves.

Cerberus is a group consisting of maybe a hundred people, how would they claim human dominance?

They are actively making a case for human (,paragon Shepard even went as far as to say Cerberus,) dominance, thus you can rightly assume they will use anything they find for human benefit, and not the galaxy in the long term.

And I fully expect Cerberus to use it for their own end, though not before the Reapers are dealt with. Though, I'm sure you'd prefer watching Earth burn than trust the only organization that trusts you. No?

[Dave of Canada]

Alocormin wrote...

The Collector Base is a Reaper weapon. Maybe it is logical to "assume" there would be Reaper schematics neatly laid out and the weaknesses circled in charts and diagrams. It's also logical to assume there is nothing we could get out of it without comparable drawbacks, especially with Cerberus calling the shots on who sees what.  Also logical to assume the Reapers are the only ones who could make use of it.

EDI is part Reaper, we've already recieved Reaper and Base schematics from a few minutes in the base. It's logical to think we'd be able to get more when we stop and smell the roses in the base instead of shooting everything that moves.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 12 décembre 2010 - 06:35 .

[Zavox]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Zavox wrote...

I hope you've read the Retribution novel, it kind of conveys what dangerous experiments Cerberus does with unknown technology. Or for that matter, Mass Effect 1 and 2 would do as examples aswell.
They do horrid experiments without enough safety measures so they do not screw up. I for one am not convinced they would not 'accidentally' something bad.

I've read it and the only screw up was when the Turians involved themselves where they shouldn't have. Had the Turians not involved themselves and let Grayson escape, nothing would've happened. The project was also a success as we learned a lot more about indocrination and Reaper methods / tech.

Didn't I say something about safety measures? They should've been able to terminate Grayson the instant the base was under attack. They could/did not. Besides, what about the screw ups in Mass Effect 1 in particular?

Furthermore, you're assuming that Cerberus has the goodwill to share the technology with the Alliance and maybe other races.

Cerberus has been known to give their technology to the Alliance for the benefit of all humanity.

Hm? Such as?

They may just aswell use it as a bargaining chip or just share those things that they want to share and keep the potentially useful technology in establishing human dominance later on for themselves.

Cerberus is a group consisting of maybe a hundred people, how would they claim human dominance?

Given enough time, anything can happen. You don't honestly think that any change or revolution happens instantly with thousands of people do you? You do not deny they actively persue human dominance, do you?

They are actively making a case for human (,paragon Shepard even went as far as to say Cerberus,) dominance, thus you can rightly assume they will use anything they find for human benefit, and not the galaxy in the long term.

And I fully expect Cerberus to use it for their own end, though not before the Reapers are dealt with. Though, I'm sure you'd prefer watching Earth burn than trust the only organization that trusts you. No?

I'd rather make a gamble while keeping my morality, and humanities values, than make a gamble with an untrustworthy xenophobic organisation... But that decision might be a matter of opinion.

Also, Cerberus definately did not trust you, even though Tim might say so a couple of times. Collector ship infiltration comes to mind.

Modifié par Zavox, 12 décembre 2010 - 06:51 .

[Dave of Canada]

Zavox wrote...

Didn't I say something about safety measures? They should've been able to terminate Grayson the instant the base was under attack.

And they weren't able to do it because Grayson was in the other side of the base. I'm sure if they reached there, they would've been able to deal with him. Even the best safety measures won't work if there's no one there to do it.

Besides, what about the screw ups in Mass Effect 1 in particular?

The ME1 screw ups were already said to be rogue groups.

Hm? Such as?

Normandy SR-1, the Ascension program and such.

Shepard, the Normandy SR-2 and EDI if you want to look at it from another perspective.

Given enough time, anything can happen. You don't honestly think that any change or revolution happens instantly with thousands of people do you?

Revolutions tend to be entire people against a government instead of a small group of people against the entire galaxy.

You do not deny they actively persue human dominance, do you?

Nope and I can't fault them for that either. Each species would do the same.

I'd rather make a gamble while keeping my morality, and humanities values, than make a gamble with an untrustworthy xenophobic organisation... But that decision might be a matter of opinion.

Then you should watch Earth burn as you'd rather keep your "morality", no?

[TuringPoint]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

The Collector Base is a Reaper weapon. Maybe it is logical to "assume" there would be Reaper schematics neatly laid out and the weaknesses circled in charts and diagrams. It's also logical to assume there is nothing we could get out of it without comparable drawbacks, especially with Cerberus calling the shots on who sees what.  Also logical to assume the Reapers are the only ones who could make use of it.

EDI is part Reaper, we've already recieved Reaper and Base schematics from a few minutes in the base. It's logical to think we'd be able to get more when we stop and smell the roses in the base instead of shooting everything that moves.

I wasn't refuting any of that.  I was simply offering other logical statements which would seem to contradict a world where Reaper tech makes our problems go away.  It is logical to assess the situation in many different ways.

Also, while Cerberus has influenced the discovery of human biotics, the Ascension Project has little to do with Cerberus besides Cerberus infiltrating the place to do their own research.

It's pretty well established fact that there is more complicated reason than just morality to do away with the base.  There is nothing that decisively says what will happen if you keep the base or destroy it.

And EDI isn't a Reaper.  She is based on Reaper technology and has been tested against black box reaper viruses.  That is a success, but by no means proof in itself that Cerberus' intent is genuinely only for the good of all.  A good half of their actions don't suggest that.  

If logic is to be effective you need to consider every part of the equation.

Modifié par Alocormin, 12 décembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[Zavox]

And they weren't able to do it because Grayson was in the other side of the base. I'm sure if they reached there, they would've been able to deal with him. Even the best safety measures won't work if there's no one there to do it.

Haha, sure, but that's exactly the screw up. Why was Grayson not under surveilance 24/7, able to be injected with a lethal dose of something/or spaced/or whatever you want at the press of a button? Maybe even a press of a button lightyears away. That's what I'm talking about with safety measures.

The ME1 screw ups were already said to be rogue groups.

Who said so? Illusive Man? You already have to trust him to trust whatever he says, and again judging by Retribution he's not that honest in conversations except for SOME of his own Cerberus operatives such as Kai Leng.

Normandy SR-1, the Ascension program and such.

Both aren't Cerberus, they did infiltrate Ascension however, but they definately did not share their technology with the Alliance.

Shepard, the Normandy SR-2 and EDI if you want to look at it from another perspective.

Shared with the Alliance? I don't think so. Therefore a very very moot point.
I'd still like an example where they actually gave away technology.

Revolutions tend to be entire people against a government instead of a small group of people against the entire galaxy.

Exactly, yet you missed my point. Where did those revolutions originate from?

Nope and I can't fault them for that either. Each species would do the same.

Up for debate, you're saying fighting over dominance is not wrong comparative to peaceful co-existance. I do however concede here that species want to get the best for themselves, but I doubt every species would do such a thing at the expense of others. Which is what Cerberus does.

Then you should watch Earth burn as you'd rather keep your "morality", no?

Missed my point again, you take about as much a gamble by keeping the base than you do without. You need to research said technologies, afterwards you have to develop them and even then mass produce them. To say alot of benefit will be gained from the base in the short term is plain crazy, therefore it would most likely not be very helpful against the reapers and pose a considerable threat in the long term if Cerberus has control over it's technologies. At most you might stand just a bit more chance than you do without, but in the meantime conceding your values and making a new potential agressor in the galaxy. Like Paragon Shepard said: I will defeat the reapers, but I won't sacrifice the soul of our species to do so.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zavox wrote...

And they weren't able to do it because Grayson was in the other side of the base. I'm sure if they reached there, they would've been able to deal with him. Even the best safety measures won't work if there's no one there to do it.

Haha, sure, but that's exactly the screw up. Why was Grayson not under surveilance 24/7, able to be injected with a lethal dose of something/or spaced/or whatever you want at the press of a button? Maybe even a press of a button lightyears away. That's what I'm talking about with safety measures.

He was under surveilance. Besides the questionable effectiveness of a poison in this case, what was lacking about the intended system had it not been, you know, destroyed in the attack?

[Zavox]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zavox wrote...

And they weren't able to do it because Grayson was in the other side of the base. I'm sure if they reached there, they would've been able to deal with him. Even the best safety measures won't work if there's no one there to do it.

Haha, sure, but that's exactly the screw up. Why was Grayson not under surveilance 24/7, able to be injected with a lethal dose of something/or spaced/or whatever you want at the press of a button? Maybe even a press of a button lightyears away. That's what I'm talking about with safety measures.

He was under surveilance. Besides the questionable effectiveness of a poison in this case, what was lacking about the intended system had it not been, you know, destroyed in the attack?

No, either he was not under surveilance at the time, or they did not have protocols in place to terminate the subject when the station comes under attack by a far superior force. The alarms in the station went up before the 3 turian frigates boarded so they were detected before any damage, and they could've assessed they were up against impossible odds and thus terminate Grayson.

[Dean_the_Young]

Zavox wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Zavox wrote...

And they weren't able to do it because Grayson was in the other side of the base. I'm sure if they reached there, they would've been able to deal with him. Even the best safety measures won't work if there's no one there to do it.

Haha, sure, but that's exactly the screw up. Why was Grayson not under surveilance 24/7, able to be injected with a lethal dose of something/or spaced/or whatever you want at the press of a button? Maybe even a press of a button lightyears away. That's what I'm talking about with safety measures.

He was under surveilance. Besides the questionable effectiveness of a poison in this case, what was lacking about the intended system had it not been, you know, destroyed in the attack?

No, either he was not under surveilance at the time, or they did not have protocols in place to terminate the subject when the station comes under attack by a far superior force. The alarms in the station went up before the 3 turian frigates boarded so they were detected before any damage, and they could've assessed they were up against impossible odds and thus terminate Grayson.

That really doesn't answer the question I posed. Do try again.

[Zavox]

Please enlighten me as to what your question is posing, for I'm feeling I've already answered it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Copy and paste is such a wonderful thing:





What was lacking about the intended system had it not been, you know, destroyed in the attack?







System, in this context, referring to the intended processes of dealing with, and containing, Grayson.

[RiouHotaru]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

I still don't understand why Renegades accept that they have to pick the extreme choices and still want to get a pat on the back.

Well, after the last dozen people tried explaining it to you why people might expect unpopular but logical choices to provide unpopular but more effective results, I suppose we'll just have to let you flounder around in self-admitted ignorance.

Because, Phaedon, Renegades refuse to acknowledge that Paragons also use logical, effective answers to problems.  They think we have it easy, when thematically, we don't.  Just don't expect them to ever admit that.

[Vaenier]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

I still don't understand why Renegades accept that they have to pick the extreme choices and still want to get a pat on the back.

Well, after the last dozen people tried explaining it to you why people might expect unpopular but logical choices to provide unpopular but more effective results, I suppose we'll just have to let you flounder around in self-admitted ignorance.

Because, Phaedon, Renegades refuse to acknowledge that Paragons also use logical, effective answers to problems.  They think we have it easy, when thematically, we don't.  Just don't expect them to ever admit that.

I think both Paragons and Renegades are missing out. You should pick choices based on logic and reasoning, not what color the button is.

Oohhh, blue button pretty!

[Dean_the_Young]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

I still don't understand why Renegades accept that they have to pick the extreme choices and still want to get a pat on the back.

Well, after the last dozen people tried explaining it to you why people might expect unpopular but logical choices to provide unpopular but more effective results, I suppose we'll just have to let you flounder around in self-admitted ignorance.

Because, Phaedon, Renegades refuse to acknowledge that Paragons also use logical, effective answers to problems.  They think we have it easy, when thematically, we don't.  Just don't expect them to ever admit that.

Exactly it, RiouHotaru. I'm glad you really see what all the disputes and disagreements over your logical arguments amounts to.

[Zavox]

Copy and paste is such a wonderful thing:

What was lacking about the intended system had it not been, you know, destroyed in the attack?

System, in this context, referring to the intended processes of dealing with, and containing, Grayson.

Yes, I can read that, and like I said; please enlighten me as to what your question is posing, for I'm feeling I've already answered it.

For your convenience: "The alarms in the station went up before the 3 turian frigates boarded so they were detected before any damage, and they could've assessed they were up against impossible odds and thus terminate Grayson."

Therefore we can assume their safety protocols or termination system was not adequate. They were detected before they boarded, both Kai Leng and the Illusive Man seperately came to the conclusion they were up against insurmountable odds, yet neither they nor the researchers could terminate Grayson before they managed to board. That means they did not account for this possibility on such high risk research. It's negligence and incompetence on Cerberus' part.

Modifié par Zavox, 12 décembre 2010 - 08:03 .

[Zulu_DFA]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Renegades refuse to acknowledge that Paragons also use logical, effective answers to problems.

Because you don't.

RiouHotaru wrote...

They think we have it easy, when thematically, we don't.  Just don't expect them to ever admit that.

Wrong. We think that you have it extremely complicated, and therefore, logically, you should fail a lot more often, than we (who prefer the easy & fool proof, if unpopular, way "Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out").

But thanks to BioWare, you always luck out! While we get our punishment in the form of in-game unpopularity, and meta-game less content.

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 décembre 2010 - 08:10 .

[DarthCaine]

I'm pretty sure that you'll be able to defeat the Reapers no matter your choices in ME1/ME2