650 réponses à ce sujet

[prizm123]

dont forget to recruit Godzilla, Mothra, Rodan, Ghidorah, Mecha Godzilla.....

[Fiery Phoenix]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

*snip*

So saving this.

[Zulu_DFA]

You are going to be a lot more sorry if destoying the Base is the wrong decision, than if keeping it is.

The situation can't get worse than it is (the Reapers are coming, everyone dies), but it may get better (if the C-Base gives you a fighting chance, and at least a few may survive even if a Human Empire enslaves the aliens and blah... blah...).

Modifié par Zulu_DFA, 12 décembre 2010 - 08:52 .

[Inverness Moon]

Zavox wrote...

Inverness Moon wrote...

No, because if the base contained the only thing that could have saved the galaxy from the reapers, then you've already lost.

Keeping the base gives you the opportunity to find out for sure, destroying the base doesn't.

1st wish - Technology to save galaxy from the reapers
2nd wish - Cerberus please do not use this for your own benefit in the future, and please do not smirk like that whenever I tell you I will keep the base.
3rd wish - Please base, do not indoctrinate like all the other reaper tech did so far.

Kind of wishful thinking to me. Paragons destroy it as a better safe than sorry measure, obviously they have let it cross their mind there might be new technology there. Don't forget though that the technology would never be better than the technology the reapers have.

Paragons are doing the wishful thinking because they just assume the base has nothing important, without evidence, and then blow the thing up. Renegades aren't so foolish, so we save the base so that we can investigate further. We don't automatically assume one way or another.

Though on second thought, we do assume that blowing the base up will destroy whatever might be useful for defeating the reapers, which is a much more logical and well-founded assumption.

At this point I don't care what Cerberus intends to do with the technology afterwards. The reapers are many times more significant as far as threat level goes, and I can't be worrying about an afterwards that is highly unlikely to occur at this point.

There is plenty of reason to assume that the base itself and many things found in it won't indoctrinate people:

1. The collectors themselves don't need to be indoctrinated.
2. The collector base was not built with the intention of indoctrinating its inhabitants like with the reapers.
3. The collectors traded advanced technology to the galaxy. There have been no reports of technology they traded making anyone crazy.
4. Indoctrination is not magic. Assuming every piece of technology from weapons to their toilets can indoctrinate is ridiculous.

[Inverness Moon]

Zavox wrote...

Right, so you don't believe hoping for some holy grail technology is wishful thinking?

This isn't a difficult concept to understand. If you blow up the base and it turns out to be the holy grail you're screwed. Saving the base means leaving your options open. If the base is the holy grail, great! If not, oh well, we'll find another way.

Zavox wrote...

If anything the reapers can control the base from afar if need be, just like they did with Grayson. That line of thinking makes it a better safe than sorry decision for paragon. Especially if you take the possible consequences of giving it to Cerberus in mind.

All instances of reaper control we have observed so far were through partially organic bodies. This is because the reapers use nanites with quantum entanglement technology. The collector base is not an organic creature so I wouldn't expect them to be able to control it remotely. If they could there would be no point in having a collector general that sits at the control panel 24/7.

Edit:

Imho, you're just further highlighting how paragons aren't really thinking too much about what they're doing.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 décembre 2010 - 09:00 .

[lovgreno]

Zavox wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Not really. We don't need the Base and I'll find some other way to stop the Reapers = wishful thinking to the max.

TIM's a maniac, but the Reapers are assured destrcution, so go TIM =  risk management.

Right, so you don't believe hoping for some holy grail technology is wishful thinking?

If anything the reapers can control the base from afar if need be, just like they did with Grayson. That line of thinking makes it a better safe than sorry decision for paragon. Especially if you take the possible consequences of giving it to Cerberus in mind.

Both keeping and destroying the base means a high risk and involves a lot of wishfull thinking. ME isn't about perfect truths, right or wrong, black or white etc. There are no wrong decisions in ME. This is not the kind of story for those that always needs to be right.

[Bad King]

 [/quote]
[quote]Zavox wrote...

Imho, you're just further highlighting how paragons aren't really thinking too much about what they're doing.

[/quote]


I won't let fear change who I am! 

Modifié par Bad King, 12 décembre 2010 - 09:05 .

[Zavox]

Inverness Moon wrote...
This isn't a difficult concept to understand. If you blow up the base and it turns out to be the holy grail you're screwed. Saving the base means leaving your options open. If the base is the holy grail, great! If not, oh well, we'll find another way.

You do not seem to understand that you relinquish the base to Cerberus, you do not research it yourself, or more trustworthy people for that matter. Thus you're giving them acces to advanced technology that they can use for their own benefit and hope for the holy grail technology which they obviously will give. It's definately wishful thinking mate, however you want to see it.
Hoping there's no holy grail you're destroying but atleast knowing for sure Cerberus can't abuse it and prevent other potential dangerous things from happening is on the other hand a better (relatively) safe than sorry.

All instances of reaper control we have observed so far were through partially organic bodies. This is because the reapers use nanites with quantum entanglement technology. The collector base is not an organic creature so I wouldn't expect them to be able to control it remotely. If they could there would be no point in having a collector general that sits at the control panel 24/7.

If anything it's easier to control machines than human bodies, so I don't really see your point. It might very well be draining on the reapers to do so though. Which in turn would explain the collector general.

Edit:

Imho, you're just further highlighting how paragons aren't really thinking too much about what they're doing.

Oh, you've got to be kidding me. Why is it always this sentence from the renegades? There's plenty of decisions from renegades in the game that get chosen (such as the "let the council die" decision) that when thought through can actually be more damaging than helpful.

Modifié par Zavox, 12 décembre 2010 - 09:10 .

[Inverness Moon]

Zavox wrote...

You do not seem to understand that you relinquish the base to Cerberus, you do not research it yourself, or more trustworthy people for that matter. Thus you're giving them acces to advanced technology that they can use for their own benefit and hope for the holy grail technology which they obviously will give. It's definately wishful thinking mate, however you want to see it.
Hoping there's no holy grail you're destroying but atleast knowing for sure Cerberus can't abuse it and prevent other potential dangerous things from happening is on the other hand a better (relatively) safe than sorry.

Yes, and while Cerberus is doing their thing, I'll be going around rallying the galaxy to my cause and finding alternatives in case the collector base doesn't pan out.

What I do know is that TIM, and therefore Cerberus, intends to destroy the reapers and will do everything they can to reach that goal. That is not wishful thinking.

I'm not doing wishful thinking by believing something MIGHT come out of the collector base because I'm not assuming that is in fact truth. When paragons blow the base up they are wishfully thinking that the base will not be a deciding factor in the war against the reapers without any evidence supporting that conclusion.

If you think hoping for something means wishful thinking then I suggest you check the definition.

Zavox wrote...

All instances of reaper control we have observed so far were through partially organic bodies. This is because the reapers use nanites with quantum entanglement technology. The collector base is not an organic creature so I wouldn't expect them to be able to control it remotely. If they could there would be no point in having a collector general that sits at the control panel 24/7.

If anything it's easier to control machines than human bodies, so I don't really see your point. It might very well be draining on the reapers to do so though. Which in turn would explain the collector general.

Not necessarily, unlike typical machines, organic bodies are malleable. The reapers can use their nanomachines to manipulate the organic bodies they're inhabiting as they did with both Saren and Grayson. With normal machines its not as easy, because you have no blood stream for nanomachines to flow through, and you have much more rigid materials.

And my point is that you can't just assume the collector base can be remote controlled simply because the reapers have been able to control organic bodies.

Antares1987 wrote...

I strongly believe that the Collector base will be our downfall because that thing is gonna need further studying before it could be fully utilized and knowing Cerberus's history for taking too many shortcuts we're gonna end up screwing ourselves.

Shepard, Normandy SR2, and EDI. All built by Cerberus and all essential to the success of the mission against the collectors.

Some people seem to completely ignore the fact that they're living proof of Cerberus's success.

Zavox wrote...

Oh, you've got to be kidding me. Why is it always this sentence from the renegades? There's plenty of decisions from renegades in the game that get chosen (such as the "let the council die" decision) that when thought through can actually be more damaging than helpful.

I don't call myself a renegade because I always pick renegade options, I call myself a renegade because I'm not idealistic and hung up on arbitrary things like morals.

I would question the wisdom of letting the Council die because it would create unnecessary instability in a time when we certainly don't need it, which is exactly what happened. However, I would support focusing on Sovereign because stopping Sovereign is much more important than preventing that instability.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 12 décembre 2010 - 09:24 .

[Jagri]

If anything it's easier to control machines than human bodies, so I don't really see your point. It might very well be draining on the reapers to do so though. Which in turn would explain the collector general.

That does make sense as far as seen in the events of the first Mass Effect game.

Sovereign assumes control over Saren.
Saren is empowered but is defeated.
Defeat seems to harm Sovereign allowing its destruction

Harbinger assumes control over Collector General
From their comes to assume control over random Collector.
Collector is defeated but Harbinger isn't harm because it is working through Collector General.

Modifié par Jagri, 12 décembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[Inverness Moon]

Jagri wrote...

If anything it's easier to control machines than human bodies, so I don't really see your point. It might very well be draining on the reapers to do so though. Which in turn would explain the collector general.

That does make sense as far as seen in the events of the first Mass Effect game.

Sovereign assumes control over Saren.
Saren is empowered but is defeated.
Defeat seems to harm Sovereign allowing its destruction

Harbinger assumes control over Collector General
From their comes to assume control over random Collector.
Collector is defeated but Harbinger isn't harm cause working through Collector General.

Or perhaps Harbinger simply learned to buffer itself from the negative effects of dying while in control of another body so it wouldn't suffer the same fate as Sovereign.

Also, the collectors aren't fully machine or fully organic, same with Saren. I don't think that is a good example.

[Zavox]

Inverness Moon wrote...
Yes, and while Cerberus is doing their thing, I'll be going around rallying the galaxy to my cause and finding alternatives in case the collector base doesn't pan out.

What I do know is that TIM, and therefore Cerberus, intends to destroy the reapers and will do everything they can to reach that goal. That is not wishful thinking.

I'm not doing wishful thinking by believing something MIGHT come out of the collector base because I'm not assuming that is in fact truth. When paragons blow the base up they are wishfully thinking that the base will not be a deciding factor in the war against the reapers without any evidence supporting that conclusion.

If you think hoping for something means wishful thinking then I suggest you check the definition.

Err... that would be a gamble on the paragons part, not wishful thinking. If you think it's wishful thinking I suggest you to look the definition up . It's wishful thinking to assume TIM will fill you in on all the happenings on the base and not use it for his own gain. The evidence is to the contrary so far, and that's exactly what wishful thinking is. Use current facts and bend them to your own wishes.

Not necessarily, unlike typical machines, organic bodies are malleable. The reapers can use their nanomachines to manipulate the organic bodies they're inhabiting as they did with both Saren and Grayson. With normal machines its not as easy, because you have no blood stream for nanomachines to flow through, and you have much more rigid materials.

Yes, and that would assume they need nanomachines to operate the station? I doubt they would've made it so ineffective as to not be controlled. What would be the point?

And my point is that you can't just assume the collector base can be remote controlled simply because the reapers have been able to control organic bodies.

I know, yet they are able to shed every organic tissue from Saren and still control him with heightened reflexes. He was entirely machine at that point.

I don't call myself a renegade because I always pick renegade options, I
call myself a renegade because I'm not idealistic and hung up on
arbitrary things like morals.

I would question the wisdom of
letting the Council die because it would create unnecessary instability
in a time when we certainly don't need it, which is exactly what
happened. However, I would support focusing on Sovereign because
stopping Sovereign is much more important than preventing that
instability.

Nope, you make the mistake of not thinking through that concentrating on Sovereign would leave the geth ships still undefeated and should be able to surround you. That this eventually did not happen is something else, but you should've decided against concentrating on Sovereign for that tactical flaw.

Modifié par Zavox, 12 décembre 2010 - 09:33 .

[Jagri]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Or perhaps Harbinger simply learned to buffer itself from the negative effects of dying while in control of another body so it wouldn't suffer the same fate as Sovereign.

Current evidence suggests the Collector General was that buffer to avoid the negative effects of dying while controlling another body. I think the General was modified for that task as well as others not assumed by the average Collector.

[Inverness Moon]

Zavox wrote...

Err... that would be a gamble on the paragons part, not wishful thinking.

So then a paragon would be blowing up the collector base even though he/she knows that it could be the only thing to save the galaxy against the reapers? How is that any better?

Zavox wrote...

If you think it's wishful thinking I suggest you to look the definition up . It's wishful thinking to assume TIM will fill you in on all the happenings on the base and not use it for his own gain. The evidence is to the contrary so far, and that's exactly what wishful thinking is. Use current facts and bend them to your own wishes.

What makes you think I assume either of those things? I do not.

Zavox wrote...

Yes, and that would assume they need nanomachines to operate the station? I doubt they would've made it so ineffective as to not be controlled. What would be the point?

Then what makes you think the reapers could control the station from dark space if you're not basing that assertion on how you observed Harbinger controlling its body from dark space?

And like I said, if they could control the station directly they would have no need for a collector general that appears to sit at the main control panel 24/7.

Zavox wrote...

I know, yet they are able to shed every organic tissue from Saren and still control him with heightened reflexes. He was entirely machine at that point.

How do you know that?

Zavox wrote...

Nope, you make the mistake of not thinking through that concentrating on Sovereign would leave the geth ships still undefeated and should be able to surround you. That this eventually did not happen is something else, but you should've decided against concentrating on Sovereign for that tactical flaw.

Concentrating on Sovereign does not mean ignoring the geth. I shouldn't have to state the obvious. Nice gotcha attempt though.

[Zavox]

Jagri wrote...

If anything it's easier to control machines than human bodies, so I don't really see your point. It might very well be draining on the reapers to do so though. Which in turn would explain the collector general.

That does make sense as far as seen in the events of the first Mass Effect game.

Sovereign assumes control over Saren.
Saren is empowered but is defeated.
Defeat seems to harm Sovereign allowing its destruction

Harbinger assumes control over Collector General
From their comes to assume control over random Collector.
Collector is defeated but Harbinger isn't harm because it is working through Collector General.

Thank you, much better explained than I did. It's even said in Mass Effect 1 as far as I can remember. That Saren isn't entirely machinized because of it's ability to function/perform and think (to a certain extent) on it's own. Whenever he gets entirely machinized they lose that ability and they need to be fully controled by the reapers.

[Inverness Moon]

Antares1987 wrote...

Not when it comes to Reaper tech, there have been many attempts on using it but no success. Paul Grayson being implanted with their technology and studying the Derelict Reaper. No one could understand the technology that they possess; since Soverign's attack, two years have passed trying to figure the tech they had and still no results.

Did you forget that part where both EDI and the Thanix Cannon were created by studying reaper technology? Specifically, the remains of Sovereign. You're wrong.

[Googlesaurus]

Where does it say that the Reapers use nanotechnology to indoctrinate organics?

[Inverness Moon]

Googlesaurus wrote...

Where does it say that the Reapers use nanotechnology to indoctrinate organics?

I said they used nanomachines to manipulate organic bodies and control them from great distances using quantum entanglement technology. This was discovered in Retribution.

[Zavox]

So then a paragon would be blowing up the collector base even though he/she knows that it could be the only thing to save the galaxy against the reapers? How is that any better?

I never said it was good, I said it's better than the alternative.

What makes you think I assume either of those things? I do not.

Then you make an even worse decision.

Then what makes you think the reapers could control the station from dark space if you're not basing that assertion on how you observed Harbinger controlling its body from dark space?

And like I said, if they could control the station directly they would have no need for a collector general that appears to sit at the main control panel 24/7

For the simple reason that Harbinger does not need to control the Collector general 24/7, but he would have to control the station 24/7? In light of the drain it apperantly causes... I think it's a fairly logical solution.

How do you know that?

Hint: Go watch Saren after the first fight or suicide. He will shed every organic tissue and be solely controlled by the reaper without any 'identity' left. Which is what explains the sudden shield drop when 'Saren' gets destroyed.

Concentrating on Sovereign does not mean ignoring the geth. I shouldn't have to state the obvious. Nice gotcha attempt though.

It's still a gotcha, if you do concentrate on the geth, you're doing the same as saving the Destiny Ascension. Plus if you save the Destiny Ascension you've got something else watching your back. It's either no concentration on the geth or concentration on the geth and thus saving the Destiny Ascension. Would be kind of strange to concentrate on the geth, thus losing firepower, but not save the Destiny Ascension and the possible stability in the galaxy. Nice try to get yourself out of it though.

[Jagri]

Indoctrination I believe is established with a signal or an energy field as established by lore.

Modifié par Jagri, 12 décembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[Markinator_123]

I won't let fear change who I am! 

Don't be so self-righteous. Are you willing to let innocent people die for the sake of your ideals? Many people are not ready to die for your ideals.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 12 décembre 2010 - 09:59 .

[Zavox]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Antares1987 wrote...

Not when it comes to Reaper tech, there have been many attempts on using it but no success. Paul Grayson being implanted with their technology and studying the Derelict Reaper. No one could understand the technology that they possess; since Soverign's attack, two years have passed trying to figure the tech they had and still no results.

Did you forget that part where both EDI and the Thanix Cannon were created by studying reaper technology? Specifically, the remains of Sovereign. You're wrong.

Exactly, remains. Collector base, remains. You're walking in an active collector base, just as you may have walked in an active reaper. You don't have certainty keeping the collector base active is safe. Judging by the other Cerberus experiments, it's going to end up in disaster. But then again, Bioware will not screw over renegades for making such a move.

Modifié par Zavox, 12 décembre 2010 - 10:03 .

[Zavox]

Don't be so self-righteous. Are you willing to let innocent people die for the sake of your ideals? Many people are not ready to die for your ideals.

Wouldn't you sacrifice alot for the freedom of speech for example?