87 réponses à ce sujet

[VonStrangle]

They've mentioned a few times that Mac is the writer for the comics and for ME3 in previews and what have you. As well, I don't know why everyone is complaining: Mass Effect 2 was wonderful. But I guess you most certainly can't please everyone.

[Nozybidaj]

Schneidend wrote...

That's purely subjective. I happen to think ME2 is a perfectly faithful sequel, and hope Mac keeps up the good work in ME3.

That's like saying "Star Treck: The Return of Spock" is a good sequel to "Star Wars: A New Hope" because you replaced Kirk with Luke.

Sure the "sequel" shares the same protagonist, but the two have nothing else to do with each other. :happy:

[N7Infernox]

I thought Drew moved to work on SW: TOR?

[Babli]

Nothing can be changed now, sadly.

Seriously, Mac Walters is getting information from ME Wiki? Thats not what I call right man at the right place.



Lets just hope that Mac and others did a better job at story this time and ME 3 will acknowledge continuity from ME 1 and not just ME 2. And I mean more then Rachni, Council and VS.

[InvaderErl]

Nozybidaj wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

That's purely subjective. I happen to think ME2 is a perfectly faithful sequel, and hope Mac keeps up the good work in ME3.

That's like saying "Star Treck: The Return of Spock" is a good sequel to "Star Wars: A New Hope" because you replaced Kirk with Luke.

Sure the "sequel" shares the same protagonist, but the two have nothing else to do with each other. :happy:

Its interesting that you bring up Star Trek but pass by the obvious connection for the more absurd one. Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 are more analogous to Star Trek The Motion Picture and Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. The latter being highly popular with the mainstream and fans but with some members from the hardcore base complaining that the second was dumbed down and actioned up.

Modifié par InvaderErl, 03 février 2011 - 11:18 .

[Schneidend]

Nozybidaj wrote...
That's like saying "Star Treck: The Return of Spock" is a good sequel to "Star Wars: A New Hope" because you replaced Kirk with Luke.

Sure the "sequel" shares the same protagonist, but the two have nothing else to do with each other. :happy:

That's a completely ridiculous analogy.

[AlanC9]

Schneidend wrote...

Nozybidaj wrote...
That's like saying "Star Treck: The Return of Spock" is a good sequel to "Star Wars: A New Hope" because you replaced Kirk with Luke.

Sure the "sequel" shares the same protagonist, but the two have nothing else to do with each other. :happy:

That's a completely ridiculous analogy.

Hence the smiley face?

Not worth taking seriously, anyway.

[Shotokanguy]

WOOO! I know everything about the writing process for a video game I didn't like as much as the first one so I'm going to blame it on the guy who was there for both games and be a big baby woooooo

[didymos1120]

Aigyl wrote...

I recall Didymos possesses a quote that the Lead Designers and Walters all plan out the story's plot, themes, characters, etc. in meetings. Then Walters gets feedback from the rest of the writing team and modifications can be made. Just substitute Drew Karpshyn with Mac Walters and its the same setup.

Yeah, it was in an interview he did a while back:

So, generally what happens is that early in the projects -- so early Mass Effect 1 or early Mass Effect 2 -- myself, Lead Designer, Preston Watamaniuk and then Casey Hudson, the producer, we'll sit down and we'll work on the big picture stuff. What's the art? Where do we want Shepard to start? Where do we want him to go? What are the obstacles that he's going to face? And we'll bash that around for a bit and then I'll take that back to the writing team and get feedback, and they get to contribute to it as well. But once that gets hammered down, then we start looking at "What are the different levels? What are the smaller areas?" And a lot of times that's when each individual writer starts. You've got control over that level, make it work. And then overall I'm just making sure that it all fits a theme.

Unless someone at Bioware provides details, there's no way to know who's responsible for which parts of either game's plot.

[didymos1120]

Babli wrote...

Nothing can be changed now, sadly.
Seriously, Mac Walters is getting information from ME Wiki?

Oh, yeah.  This factoid again.  No one ever includes the context, I notice:

CraveOnline: I want to switch gears to the Mass Effect games real quick. Now Mac, you wrote the games’ scripts as well. Do you and BioWare have a universe bible to adhere to?

Mac Walters: Oh yea, we actually have what we call an “IP Bible.” We have several versions of it. We have an internal one and a third party version which we give out to people like Dark Horse to tell them, “Hey, read about our universe!” But yea, we maintain it and update it over time. 

But I have to be honest with you, I need to thank the fans. One of the best sources of information on Mass Effect is the Mass Effect Wiki. I often use it myself.

CraveOnline: Wow, the man who created the Mass Effect universe uses the fans to keep his facts straight.

Mac Walters: The thing is, I, along with the other writers, have come up with so much information that’s come and then been cut that it’s hard to remember what’s in the final game.

CraveOnline: And nerds like us would know.

Mac Walters: Well, yea, you guys are the ones playing the game so know what you actually saw, more so than I do sometimes.

Actually, I was just in a discussion, and I’m not sure if it’s announced yet, but we have an 8-pager coming out sometime and it features a specific character. But during this talk someone was like, “Wait, didn’t that guy get assassinated? Wasn’t it in a news commentary?”

I was like, “Oh, sh*t, wow.” But I wound up going to Wikipedia and finding out he’s still alive. So we’re all good [laughs].

That last bit is referencing Executor Pallin, who is mentioned as being dead in a scene in ME2 that's normally inaccessible but which is fully voiced and animated, so I can see why one of the devs thought he was dead.  A lot of people around here made that mistake when Inqusition came out, presumably after having watched that vid.

Modifié par didymos1120, 04 février 2011 - 12:36 .

[Schneidend]

AlanC9 wrote...

Hence the smiley face?

Not worth taking seriously, anyway.

It's difficult to tell on the internet generally, and difficult to tell with Nozy specifically. He rails against ME2 at every opportunity, so it's difficult to assume he's kidding just because he's being hyperbolic.

[pacer90]

Apart from Star Wars, there has never been a trilogy where the 2nd installment was unanimously accepted like the first was.



The first introduces you to the world, it has the advantage of newness and awe. The finale has the sense of closure. Middle chapters suck, and its what Mac was stuck with.



However... whoever wrote LotSB needs to be given a raise.

[InvaderErl]

pacer90 wrote...

Apart from Star Wars, there has never been a trilogy where the 2nd installment was unanimously accepted like the first was.

Not even:

from Wiki

The Empire Strikes Back initially received mixed reviews from critics upon its release. However, by the turn of the 1990s and up to now, fans and critics alike now widely consider The Empire Strikes Back to be the best film in the franchise.[34]

Some critics had problems with the story of The Empire Strikes Back, but they admitted that the film was a great technological achievement in filmmaking. For example, Vincent Canby of The New York Times wrote a largely negative review.[35] Judith Martin of The Washington Post complained of the film's "middle-of-the-story" plot, which featured no particular beginning or end, in her opinion.[36] However, this was a concept that Lucas had intended.[20]


Judith Martin's review is scathing and sounds very similiar to a lot of the most negative criticisms of ME2

"The Empire Strikes Back" has no plot structure, no character studies let alone character development, no emotional or philosophical point to make. It has no original vision of the future"

Modifié par InvaderErl, 04 février 2011 - 04:22 .

[Pedro Costa]

No matter who wrote Mass3, it's written. The game's fully playable, apparently, so that means the script is long since finnished.



Any discussion on the writers is moot...

[Jade Elf]

DarkLord_PT wrote...

No matter who wrote Mass3, it's written. The game's fully playable, apparently, so that means the script is long since finnished.

Any discussion on the writers is moot...

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Plus, I can imagine that they haven't even started recording the voice-overs yet. Anyway, regarding the writing, here's an example of what I mean(bolded bit for emphasis):

Dusty Everman wrote...

I'm really impressed with this
forum thread. Well thought out yet conflicting views have been
expressed with the discussion remaining civil, and I’ve found some great
food for thought.
I have such mixed feelings when I hear the
criticisms of Kelly not being flushed out as much as she should have
been, or offense of her cabin dancing, or lack of a true romance scene.
On one hand, it’s great that people care enough to want things
different or to want more. On the other hand, she almost didn’t happen
at all, so there’s more there than I had originally expected. I’ll let
you in on a bit of ME2 development history.
ME2 was a very large
scale project. Every department was heavily tasked to get a polished
product out the door. Due to its nature, the Normandy came in a bit
later than other levels. When it came time to flush out the Normandy’s
light characters and plots, the writers and cinematic designers were
fully tasked. There were discussions where Kelly (at least the part
beyond “You have email” or “Such-and-such wants to speak to you”),
Doctor Chakwas, Engineer Donnelly and Daniels, and Mess Sergeant Gardner
were on the chopping block (and there were other characters that did
get cut). In the end, a level designer did the writing for those
characters, not a writer, and most of the cinematic design work for
those characters was done afterhours by passionate cine designers. They
were pretty much created after work hours as a labor of love by all
involved.
From a development point of view, the real purpose for
those light characters was to give meaning to the choice of going
through the Omega-4 relay early or waiting. It was supposed to be
something like the Ash/Kaidan choice in ME1. Do you save your Normandy
crew but risk your squad mates and the entire mission, or do you prepare
more but potentially sacrifice the crew. We kind of failed at this
goal on two accounts. 1. That decision wasn’t clear. 2. We gave the
ability to save everyone if you did the mission order just right. But
the light crew members were there in an attempt to give you someone to
care about. If you don’t like the flirty, optimistic yeoman, hopefully
you like your old Doctor friend, or the joking engineers, or the brash
cook. Hopefully there is at least one of those you care about to make
the choice to go through the Omega-4 relay early a compelling one.
The
light romance with Kelly was bonus. It would have been great to do the
dinner in detail, but covering every type of relationship that Shepard
might have with Kelly was just not feasible. Everyone has their own
version in their head of what happened during that dinner, and you all
are correct. To actually implement every version was just not possible,
and even if there was development time that time would probably have
been better spent flushing out your main squad members. Maybe the
dinner shouldn’t have been in there at all then, but that’s a whole
other discussion.
The cabin cuddles with Kelly and all the love
interests, as well as her playful dancing, were all a last minute
addition, done just a week before content lockdown. VO had been locked
down long before, hence why they are all silent. Should they have even
gone in? Once again, that’s a whole other discussion.
Anyway, I look forward to more of your thoughts. Thank you.

(thread)

[AdmiralCheez]

InvaderErl wrote...

pacer90 wrote...

Apart from Star Wars, there has never been a trilogy where the 2nd installment was unanimously accepted like the first was.

Not even:

from Wiki

The Empire Strikes Back initially received mixed reviews from critics upon its release. However, by the turn of the 1990s and up to now, fans and critics alike now widely consider The Empire Strikes Back to be the best film in the franchise.[34]

Some critics had problems with the story of The Empire Strikes Back, but they admitted that the film was a great technological achievement in filmmaking. For example, Vincent Canby of The New York Times wrote a largely negative review.[35] Judith Martin of The Washington Post complained of the film's "middle-of-the-story" plot, which featured no particular beginning or end, in her opinion.[36] However, this was a concept that Lucas had intended.[20]


Judith Martin's review is scathing and sounds very similiar to a lot of the most negative criticisms of ME2

"The Empire Strikes Back" has no plot structure, no character studies let alone character development, no emotional or philosophical point to make. It has no original vision of the future"

PWNAGE: Delivered.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that the middle chapter is the one that relies the most on the rest of the trilogy.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 04 février 2011 - 06:03 .

[Ryzaki]

...Except for the fact that ME2 is more of a reboot than relying on ME1. 

Edit: corrected myself.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 février 2011 - 06:17 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Why is it a reboot? I don't remember any Virmires or Sarens present in round 2.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

[quote]bjdbwea wrote...

I think that of course the writer(s) of ME 1 had a vision for the rest of the trilogy. But I do not believe for a second that the main story of ME 2 is much like it. I think that the story had to be changed significantly, probably for several reasons.

a) They were told to create separate independent short stories to make the game easier palatable for the mainstream.
[/quote]

ME1 had many "independent short stories."  Heck, take a look at the core plot worlds.  How much of Noveria's plot was really relevant to the main plot of the game?  They even left Feros out of the comic and there was surprisingly little impact.

[quote]
They had to find a way to reset the story and sideline most of the important characters, so that new players and PS 3 gamers would not be at a disadvantage.
[/quote]

Considering the PS3 port wasn't even started until ME2 was already published, long after the story was set, I think you are... wrong.

[qupte]
c) They were probably working under time constraints. This affects not so much the writing, because even a good story can be written within the time, at least by good writers. But anything that's written, must of course be implemented, and in a game like this, that means creating cutscenes. It seems obvious to me that for example the recurring conversations between Shepard and TIM in always the same bland office were a result of the lack of time to create more diverse cutscenes.[/quote]

Huge speculation.  All games get "cuts" at some point, and it's hard to blame the writer for time constraints. 

[Ryzaki]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Why is it a reboot? I don't remember any Virmires or Sarens present in round 2.

It's a reboot because practically nothing carried over.

Alliance and Council? Claims dismissed.

Ship? Destroyed.

Team? Scattered completely with exception of two teammembers who can't seem to remember how you treated them in ME1 or end up in the same place regardless.

Cerberus? Oh we're new guys and you have to work with us. You also won't bother confronting our leader about those experiments of ours that you blew up even if we killed your whole unit!

Everything important you did is reduced to emails or cameos and has no importance on the plot.

You see practically no impact of the decisions you made. Everything is pretty much the same as it was in ME1.

Hell you haven't even learned much about the Reapers either - Spoilers removed.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 février 2011 - 06:28 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Ryzaki wrote...

It's a reboot because practically nothing carried over.

Alliance and Council? Claims dismissed.

You expected them not to?  Udina and the turian councilor are pretty derptastic.

Ship? Destroyed.

For the sake of a dramatic opening scene and an excuse to incorporate face/class editing into the plot.  The former is excusable, the latter a mistake that they'd better not repeat.

Team? Scattered completely with exception of two teammembers who can't seem to remember how you treated them in ME1 or end up in the same place regardless.

There are subtle differences in Garrus's dialogue if you paragoned/renegaded/didn't recruit him, enough that they surprise me when they pop up.  Tali's oddly fangirly no matter what, which is a touch creepy and could have been handled better, but I'd rather not face the wrath of the Talimancers.  As for Wrex, they probably just assumed you killed him if you were a jerk to him all the time, plus krogans seem to admire stubborn dickishness and people who can kill stuff in abundance.

Horizon was failcakes, I'll give you that.  Liara... ehhh... what this is I don't even.

Of course, you were dead for two years (a cheap plot device, but a device nonetheless).

Cerberus? Oh we're new guys and you have to work with us. You also won't bother confronting our leader about those experiments of ours that you blew up even if we killed your whole unit!

Liara Syndrome: You can easily guess who Mac's favorite characters are since Shepard can't disagree with them.  Yes, Cerberus are the only people doing anything about the Collectors, and yes, you can stick it to them in the end, but I understand your frustration.

Unfortunately, refuse to work for Cerberus, and you'd be playing a completely different game.  We're too far away from the end to have that sort of plot divergence.  ME3, maybe that will change.

Everything important you did is reduced to emails or cameos and has no importance on the plot.

Buying someone's groceries for them two years ago is supposed to help you stop the Reapers?

You see practically no impact of the decisions you made. Everything is pretty much the same as it was in ME1.

The political environment aboard the Citadel is actually substantially different if you did/didn't save the council.  Same goes for Tuckanka and Wrex.  And... those are really the only two biggies they could afford to set loose, I think.  Remember, they've still got one game to go.  The rachni and VS will probably come to play in ME3, when it really matters.

Hell you haven't even learned much about the Reapers either other than them wanting to have babies and mindslaving the Protheans (which for some reason they didn't bother using the first game...for..whatever reason). Collectors came out of nowhere. (To me anyways I heard no mention of them in ME1.)

Oh yeah, let's spend a whole game fighting geth again, even though we just defeated them.  Fun.

The Collector thing was weird, I'll give you that.  I'm hoping it'll make more sense in ME3, but as for now, the HR is on my list of inexcusable LOLWUT moments.

[The Unfallen]

I didn't feel like reading all that... so...



...I'll just say ME 1 had an amazing story and we need Drew back.



Kthnxbai

[Ryzaki]

@Admiral and all of what you posted is why I think it's a reboot.

It should've been a completely different game from what we got if it was consistent with ME1.

The Council supposedly believes you at the end of ME1. Why not go "ah yes 'Reapers'." then?  Why believe Shepard about Saren's attacks if they didn't think in some small part the Reaper threat might be valid? The only one who was completely a douche was that damn Turian but all of them turn into idiots in ME2.

As for Garrus. Yeah somehow pushing him towards C-Sec/the Spectres ends up with him going to Omega...why? I could see C-Sec him getting sick again of all the corruption but why exactly didn't he apply for Spectrehood? You don't even hear about him failing he just doesn't do it.

Edit: Ah yes sparing the Rachni Queen is totally just grocery shopping. Letting a rogue terrorist go away is grocery shopping.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 février 2011 - 07:02 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Ryzaki wrote...

^And all of that contributed to my reboot feelings.

Um, okay...?

As for Garrus. Yeah somehow pushing him towards C-Sec/the Spectres ends up with him going to Omega...why? I could see C-Sec him getting sick again of all the corruption but why exactly didn't he apply for Spectrehood? You don't even hear about him failing he just doesn't do it.

He did reapply, but he ditched it because he couldn't stand the council's politics.  Either way, he's still his own person and his mentor's been dead for two years.

Edit: Ah yes sparing the Rachni Queen is totally just grocery shopping. Letting a rogue terrorist go away is grocery shopping.

Ooh, zing.  Nice one.

The rachni thing didn't come into play immediately, but it was hinted at with that encounter on Illium.  Is it too much to assume they're holding onto that for ME3?  As for Balak, he was DLC.  That makes me very sad on behalf of Kasumi and Zaeed, but it's unfortunately expected.

When I said "grocery shopping," I was referring to the fact that a lot of the sidequests in ME1 really had little to do with the plot in the first place, so it was a bit silly to expect them to be a big deal in ME2.

[Ryzaki]

Where did Garrus say he reapplied? I missed that.



Ah I was referring more the sidequests that might actually make a difference (sparing Rachni Queen, Toombs and the like).



Really though just meeting Toombs face to face could've been some decent development. Instead we get...an email. Yay.