115 réponses à ce sujet

[Ship.wreck_]

We still don't know that they didn't use the Citadel Relay or at least some backup relay.

[supakillaii]

Nazara was always here. Old Machines "Plan A" was to open the Relay remotely (Nazara doing it), and using Rachni as "shock troopers" of sorts. "Plan B" was Saren using the Conduit to sneak in while the Galaxy didn't really care and Nazara bullrushing through the peacetime defenses when they weren't expecting any trouble. "Plan C" was Collectors. "Plan D; **** this **** **** let's just kill them" is Mass Effect 3.

Modifié par supakillaii, 13 décembre 2010 - 07:12 .

[Psearo]

Ship.wreck wrote...

We still don't know that they didn't use the Citadel Relay or at least some backup relay.

To do so they'd have to directly interface with the Citadel, just as Sovereign did.
The Keepers were supposed to set the wheels in motion, so that the Reapers could invade via the Citadel. When that didn't happen, Sovereign had to take direct action.

The Geth fleet was purely for maximum impact, minimum expenditure on Sovereign's part. They were a means to an end.

Reapers made the Relays, and know the locations of each one, and the pathways of the entire Relay network.
All they have to do when they don't/can't access the Citadel, is to use their closest Relay (in or near their location in Dark Space) and employ more time consuming measures.
After all, it's highly unlikely that current galactic civilisation has access to;
a) All Mass Relays.
And
 The entire network of Relays.

Since the Asari found the Citadel, everyone "knew" the Protheans built the Relays...

[Ship.wreck_]

supakillaii wrote...

Nazara was always here. Old Machines "Plan A" was to open the Relay remotely (Nazara doing it), and using Rachni as "shock troopers" of sorts. "Plan B" was Saren using the Conduit to sneak in while the Galaxy didn't really care and Nazara bullrushing through the peacetime defenses when they weren't expecting any trouble. "Plan C" was Collectors. "Plan D; **** this **** **** let's just kill them" is Mass Effect 3.

The collectors seemed not to be part of the invasion plans but a separate side project. They were making a new (ridiculous) version of a Reaper not helping the existing Reapers get into the galaxy.

They should have had Saren activate the Citadel Relay covertly before they even realized he was rogue.

[AntiChri5]

If they could cover such distances, they wouldnt have built the Mass Relays in the first place.

Then why was the car invented? It covers the same distances as a horse drawn carriage. I will tell you why, because cars are better at it. And if they are incapable of traveling such distances then how did they get there in the first place?

You don't need to have mentioned it, it HAPPENED.



Sovereign died in an attempt to activate the Citadel relay, and spent months or more likely years possibly decades building forces to do that. you don't go through all that so your buddies can have a more convenient or efficient trip.

Because the plan was definately for Soveriegn to die? The strategic value of hitting the Citadel first has already been explained in this thread. Units die and are sacrificed in wars all the time. Quite often so that other parts of the war go well.

[supakillaii]

Nazara likely feared that the Conduit was some sort of superweapon that could have been used against them, and paranoidly wanted it gone, or for Saren.

[Ship.wreck_]

Psearo wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...

We still don't know that they didn't use the Citadel Relay or at least some backup relay.

To do so they'd have to directly interface with the Citadel, just as Sovereign did.
The Keepers were supposed to set the wheels in motion, so that the Reapers could invade via the Citadel. When that didn't happen, Sovereign had to take direct action.

The Geth fleet was purely for maximum impact, minimum expenditure on Sovereign's part. They were a means to an end.

Reapers made the Relays, and know the locations of each one, and the pathways of the entire Relay network.
All they have to do when they don't/can't access the Citadel, is to use their closest Relay (in or near their location in Dark Space) and employ more time consuming measures.
After all, it's highly unlikely that current galactic civilisation has access to;
a) All Mass Relays.
And
 The entire network of Relays.

Since the Asari found the Citadel, everyone "knew" the Protheans built the Relays...

What?

They could have had some intermediate agent do it for them. Like I said they should have just had Saren do it for them covertly before the Council even realized he was rogue. But then again, why would they need the Citadel Relay to get to the Citadel? You don't activate the relay you're going to to pull you there, you activate the relay your at to launch you there.

Hm, wow, I just realized the whole plot of ME1 didn't really make sense haha! But anyway, they could have a backup relay. Your post seemed kinda all over the place but didn't seem to address that possibility.

[Ship.wreck_]

AntiChri5 wrote...

If they could cover such distances, they wouldnt have built the Mass Relays in the first place.

Then why was the car invented? It covers the same distances as a horse drawn carriage. I will tell you why, because cars are better at it. And if they are incapable of traveling such distances then how did they get there in the first place?

No one thinks they can't move under their own power. What they can't do is travel boarderline intergalactic distances in any reasonable amount of time without a relay.

You don't need to have mentioned it, it HAPPENED.

Sovereign died in an attempt to activate the Citadel relay, and spent months or more likely years possibly decades building forces to do that. you don't go through all that so your buddies can have a more convenient or efficient trip.

Because the plan was definately for Soveriegn to die? The strategic value of hitting the Citadel first has already been explained in this thread. Units die and are sacrificed in wars all the time. Quite often so that other parts of the war go well.

Sovereign should be smart enough to realize there was a significant chance of death. You don't attack your primary objective with one troop if you can launch your full scale invasion with relative ease, you do it because it's almost if not THE only way you can launch your invasion.

[AntiChri5]

Sovereign should be smart enough to realize there was a significant chance of death.

Weren't you the one talking about how arrogant Reapers are?

You don't attack your primary objective with one troop if you can launch your full scale invasion with relative ease,

Who said anything about relative ease? I certainly never did.

you do it because it's almost if not THE only way you can launch your invasion.

No, you do it because it is the best way to launch your invasion.

[HappyHappyJoyJoy]

Why bother with the Collectors and the Human Reaper (with all the risk involved) when the Reapers could have just taken this hidden relay in?



Heck, why bother with Nazara's plan to indoctrinate the Rachni/build a Saren-Geth-Krogan coalition when the whole Reaper fleet could have just taken a slight detour and shown up?

[Ship.wreck_]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Weren't you the one talking about how arrogant Reapers are?

Who said anything about relative ease? I certainly never did.

No, you do it because it is the best way to launch your invasion.

Being too arogant to sacrifice your life for the convenience of your friends is still a FAR cry from being too arogant to realize that you're not invincible.

Being able to travel from the middle of dark space to Earth within one human life-time let alone within just a few years (as evidenced by Shepard not only still being alive but also still in fighting shape) without a mass relay, isn't relative ease, thats ACTUALL ease.

Attacking your primary target with one troop is never the best way to start any invasion. It's the best way to suck at invading... especially when you have the option of just flying there in a few years without the damn relay.

They had to have another relay, or use the Citadel some other way. Although if you think about it they don't need the Citadel Relay active to mass relay to the Citadel! Like I said, you activate the relay you're at to launch you to the next one, not activate the next one to pull you there... so again the whole plot of ME1 didn't make sense damn

[Ship.wreck_]

HappyHappyJoyJoy wrote...

Why bother with the Collectors and the Human Reaper (with all the risk involved) when the Reapers could have just taken this hidden relay in?

Heck, why bother with Nazara's plan to indoctrinate the Rachni/build a Saren-Geth-Krogan coalition when the whole Reaper fleet could have just taken a slight detour and shown up?

Human Reaper never made sense from any angle. But from this one he wasn't part of the invasion force. They're here in ME3 so one way or another they had another in all along, The collectors appearently was just reaper reproduction, and even from the standpoint they didn't make sense so... wierd.

The only explanation for the Sovereign fiasco would be to activate the Citadel Relay by force. Geth/Krogan only being a re-enforcement to bolster the initial attack on the citadel.  And only to instantly launch full invasion force directly to the center of galactic civilization. They had to try that at least before using a backup relay. But like I've said repeatedly there's nothing in the teaser to suggest they didn't end up using the Citadel Relay anyway.

And after all that once again, relays push not pull, so you never need a relay working at your destination anyway. So ME1 didn't make sense... Loved the game, still love it, didn't realize that till a few posts ago but still...

[Whole Particle]

Ship.wreck wrote...

They should have had Saren activate the Citadel Relay covertly before they even realized he was rogue.

Saren was never going to "activate the relay", he was there so he could transfer control of the Citadel over to Sovereign, and Sovereign was the one who was supposed to manually open it to let his Reaper buddies in.

[nikki191]

i always thought using the citadel relay for the reapers was very clever.. with one single attack you have cut off the head of galactic civilisation, isolated every single system from the relay network. plus having the citadel keep records specifically for the reapers on inhabited worlds, etc makes culling a lot easier.



as for how they make it in time for ME3..well im sure they have some sort of backup plan in the case of pesky inferior biological entities throwing a spanner in the works

[AntiChri5]

Being too arogant to sacrifice your life for the convenience of your friends is still a FAR cry from being too arogant to realize that you're not invincible.

Soveriegn was left behind as the vanguard. It is his job to prepare the way for the reapers coming. Even if he has to die. It is like complaining that a soldier died while fighting a war.

Yes, they do that all the time. It is what they are for.

Being able to travel from the middle of dark space to Earth within one human life-time let alone within just a few years (as evidenced by Shepard not only still being alive but also still in fighting shape) without a mass relay, isn't relative ease, thats ACTUALL ease.

You have nothing to base that assumption on. That they got here does not mean it was easy to get here. That is simply absurd.

We don't know how they got here, or what it cost them. Do they only have a finite source of energy? Did devoting so much to their engines reduce the effectiveness of their weapons? Or their indoctrination fields?

Attacking your primary target with one troop is never the best way to start any invasion.

Oh yes, because Soveriegn is just "a troop". You cannot ignore the massive difference between a soldier and a several kilometre long starship with better weapons and shields then anything else in the galaxy and a signal capable of making any enemy serve you.

They had to have another relay, or use the Citadel some other way.

There is no way you can state this with any certainty.

Although if you think about it they don't need the Citadel Relay active to mass relay to the Citadel! Like I said, you activate the relay you're at to launch you to the next one, not activate the next one to pull you there... so again the whole plot of ME1 didn't make sense damn

If the Citadel were always in "relay mode" then the people living there would figure it out after a few thousand years. They need to set it to "relay mode" so it can be used as a relay.

[Ship.wreck_]

Whole Particle wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...

They should have had Saren activate the Citadel Relay covertly before they even realized he was rogue.

Saren was never going to "activate the relay", he was there so he could transfer control of the Citadel over to Sovereign, and Sovereign was the one who was supposed to manually open it to let his Reaper buddies in.

I didn't say he was going to I said he should have from the begining.

Secondly if Sovereign could interact with the Citadel once linked to it (which makes sense) he could just link up and transfer control to himself which would also make sense, and make Saren un-necessary.

Furthermore, if Saren could transfer control of the station, then it'd make sense that he could just activate it himself making physical link of Sovereign un-necessary.

PLUS: Relays push not pull, so it doesn't make sense that they need to activate the Citadel Relay to invade anyway. I'm realizing the story doesn't make sense lots of ways...

[AntiChri5]

Try reading the codex.



Mass relays function by creating a virtually mass-free 'corridor' of space-time between each other. This can propel a starship across enormous distances that would take centuries to traverse, even at FTL speeds. Before a vessel can travel, the relay must be given the amount of mass to transit by the ship's pilot before it is moved into the approach corridor. When a relay is activated, it aligns itself with the corresponding relay before propelling the ship across space.

There are two kinds of mass relay, primary and secondary. Primary relays can send a ship hundreds of light years but only link to one other relay, its 'partner'. Secondary relays can link to any other relay over shorter distances.

[Whole Particle]

Well I didn't really see any covert way that could happen, Sovereign's pretty big, and the Citadel fleets wouldn't let a massive ship wander that close to the station without a fight.

Ship.wreck wrote...

Furthermore, if Saren could transfer control of the station, then it'd make sense that he could just activate it himself making physical link of Sovereign un-necessary.

I assume a task like opening an Enormous Mass Relay is too technical / complicated to perform remotely. Something of that magnitude would require direct access.

That's just conjecture though, what I came away with, anyway.

[Ship.wreck_]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Being too arogant to sacrifice your life for the convenience of your friends is still a FAR cry from being too arogant to realize that you're not invincible.

Soveriegn was left behind as the vanguard. It is his job to prepare the way for the reapers coming. Even if he has to die. It is like complaining that a soldier died while fighting a war.
Yes, they do that all the time. It is what they are for.

Sigh, its just circles with you dude. Look, Sovereign died and didn't even gain anything, that's a problem when your soldiers are dying and you're not even gaining any ground. And again you don't sacrifice them for convenience or efficiency. Especially if you're the one making the call and on the line, you're not gonna wanna die for anything less than the win. Sovereigns not going to say, hey they could fly here in four or five years without the relay, but hey, I don't want them to have to wait, so I'll throw myself at the relay and risk deing so they don't have to wait. That's stupid, and they might be arrogant but they're not stupid. Plus they're arrogant wich is going to further avert them to sacrifice without good reason.

Being able to travel from the middle of dark space to Earth within one human life-time let alone within just a few years (as evidenced by Shepard not only still being alive but also still in fighting shape) without a mass relay, isn't relative ease, thats ACTUALL ease.

You have nothing to base that assumption on. That they got here does not mean it was easy to get here. That is simply absurd.
We don't know how they got here, or what it cost them. Do they only have a finite source of energy? Did devoting so much to their engines reduce the effectiveness of their weapons? Or their indoctrination fields?

Getting there in two years instead of 2,000+ is easy even if your gun is at lower capacity. Attacking the citadel with one thousand Reapers at half capacity would have been 500 times better than attacking it with one full capacity Sovereign. So they never would have done so unless it was the only way to get the fleet to the Citadel.

Attacking your primary target with one troop is never the best way to start any invasion.

Oh yes, because Soveriegn is just "a troop". You cannot ignore the massive difference between a soldier and a several kilometre long starship with better weapons and shields then anything else in the galaxy and a signal capable of making any enemy serve you.

In an army of Reapers Sovereign IS just one troop.

They had to have another relay, or use the Citadel some other way.

There is no way you can state this with any certainty.

Is too. All the ways I've been stating including those first two up there ^.

Although if you think about it they don't need the Citadel Relay active to mass relay to the Citadel! Like I said, you activate the relay you're at to launch you to the next one, not activate the next one to pull you there... so again the whole plot of ME1 didn't make sense damn

If the Citadel were always in "relay mode" then the people living there would figure it out after a few thousand years. They need to set it to "relay mode" so it can be used as a relay.

Not what I was saying dude. The point is they don't EVER need it in Relay mode to relay to it. RELAYS PUSH YOU TO YOUR DESTINATION not pull you to it. So you don't need the Citadel Relay online to relay to the Citadel. You activate the relay you're at to launch you to your destination, they are AT the dark space relay, they activate it, and launch themselves to the Citadel. So the plot of ME1 didn't make sense.

[TheNexus]

The Citadel Relay was instant.



Flying was not.



Reapers aim for perfection. They do what's most efficient in any given scenario.

[Ship.wreck_]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Try reading the codex.

Mass relays function by creating a virtually mass-free 'corridor' of space-time between each other. This can propel a starship across enormous distances that would take centuries to traverse, even at FTL speeds. Before a vessel can travel, the relay must be given the amount of mass to transit by the ship's pilot before it is moved into the approach corridor. When a relay is activated, it aligns itself with the corresponding relay before propelling the ship across space.
There are two kinds of mass relay, primary and secondary. Primary relays can send a ship hundreds of light years but only link to one other relay, its 'partner'. Secondary relays can link to any other relay over shorter distances.

That might be what the Codex says. But the codex also says that thermal clips are thermal clips and not mags full of bullets. But from actually playing the game whe know what they really work like.

A tangent back on point.

In the first contact war the Turians attacked the humans because they were about to activate a relay without knowing what's on the other side... wich means they didn't need to go to the otherside to manually activate the other Relay.

So within the context of the Codex we have a contradiction. Either you don't need a relay active at your end destination to get there, OR your endpoint is automatically activated by your startpoint relay. Either way going to the Citadel Relay would have been un-necessary to start the invasion.

[AntiChri5]

Sigh, its just circles with you dude. Look, Sovereign died and didn't even gain anything, that's a problem when your soldiers are dying and you're not even gaining any ground. And again you don't sacrifice them for convenience or efficiency. Especially if you're the one making the call and on the line, you're not gonna wanna die for anything less than the win. Sovereigns not going to say, hey they could fly here in four or five years without the relay, but hey, I don't want them to have to wait, so I'll throw myself at the relay and risk deing so they don't have to wait. That's stupid, and they might be arrogant but they're not stupid. Plus they're arrogant wich is going to further avert them to sacrifice without good reason.

Soveriegn had an entire fleet with him, and came very close to winning. We don't know what taking that flight would cost them in terms of effectiveness. And you are looking back with the knowledge that Soveriegn loses, not looking forward from Soveriegns perspective. He thought he was definately going to win. He wouldn't have attacked otherwise.

Getting there in two years instead of 2,000+ is easy even if your gun is at lower capacity. Attacking the citadel with one thousand Reapers at half capacity would have been 500 times better than attacking it with one full capacity Sovereign. So they never would have done so unless it was the only way to get the fleet to the Citadel.

Having all of the reapers depowered when it looks like you can win with just the one you left behind is absurd. Soveriegn was not expecting to lose. And what on earth do you mean +2000 years?

In an army of Reapers Sovereign IS just one troop.

Why would that matter? Sov isn't fighting Reapers. You don't judge your chances of sucess by comparing your attack force with your other troops. That would be retarded. You judge your chances of success by comparing your atrack force with the enemy. The force they are actually attacking.

Is too. All the ways I've been stating including those first two up there ^.

"Is too!" is an argument used by idiots and five year olds. Which are you? I could say the sky was green, that sure as hell wouldn't make it so.

Not what I was saying dude. The point is they don't EVER need it in Relay mode to relay to it. RELAYS PUSH YOU TO YOUR DESTINATION not pull you to it. So you don't need the Citadel Relay online to relay to the Citadel. You activate the relay you're at to launch you to your destination, they are AT the dark space relay, they activate it, and launch themselves to the Citadel. So the plot of ME1 didn't make sense.

Relays aren't simply cannons that shoot you to wherever you want to go. Try reading the codex.

[AntiChri5]

That might be what the Codex says. But the codex also says that thermal clips are thermal clips and not mags full of bullets. But from actually playing the game whe know what they really work like.

Thermal clips are heatsinks which modern guns cannot fire without.

In the first contact war the Turians attacked the humans because they were about to activate a relay without knowing what's on the other side... wich means they didn't need to go to the otherside to manually activate the other Relay.

But we don't know if it was a primary or secondary relay.

So within the context of the Codex we have a contradiction. Either you don't need a relay active at your end destination to get there, OR your endpoint is automatically activated by your startpoint relay. Either way going to the Citadel Relay would have been un-necessary to start the invasion.

More assumptions. Why would the super secret space station galactic relay we aren't supposed to use or understand function exactly the same as the relays we are supposed to use every day.

[BiancoAngelo7]

xares23x wrote...

Theoristitis wrote...

It made a cycle so much more convenient. You get to obliterate the seat of government as well as most of the major players in the galactic scene, as well as probably some of the strongest galactic fleets. You get control of the relays, all of them. You get access to EVERY record in the galaxy, from the latest eezo shipment to the number of bullets the latest pistol mag can carry to the most recent research on Mnemosyne. It's not only cutting off the head of the galaxy, but it's also severing every connection in the spinal cord too.
Whereas if you just fly in, you'll decimate everybody, but eventually there will be coordinated resistance.
And it's the same place every time. You go in, spread out and kill, come back, retreat. Rinse and repeat (every 50k years).

EDIT: @luigitornado - best way I've ever seen it phrased:lol:

this

but for a present example of this tatic just look at some of the attacks that have happened in the past 10  year in our own time .

al kada(i know that isnt right) attacked america world trade center in nyc which is our most populated city in the united states

The Pentagon is the headquarters of United state department of defense

they were going for the white house where the leader of the free world lives but brave passenger fought off that plane


America and allies attacked Baqdad Iraq there capital city


its as simple as if you take out the most important station first your more likly to win the smaller battles cause the enemy morale is down  plus if you take out the main place first you dont have to worry about the losses you may get in the smaller battle as the biggest battle has already been won

Holy SHI* forget reapers and mass galactic extinction, if this guy can vote we're all in serious camel poo. Seriously dude, learn to spell and then learn something about current events that you don't hear from passing by strangers on the subway. Baghdad is the capital of AL KADA? *facepalm* What has been going on with terrorist events and the wars in the middle east have about as much to do with this game as a pink donkey does with nuclear warfare. And in case you missed my main point...Al Qaeda isn't a state. Nor is their "capital" Baghdad, otherwise America's problems would have gotten a lot smaller when we took Iraq, not bigger.

Modifié par BiancoAngelo7, 13 décembre 2010 - 09:27 .

[Ship.wreck_]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Sigh, its just circles with you dude. Look, Sovereign died and didn't even gain anything, that's a problem when your soldiers are dying and you're not even gaining any ground. And again you don't sacrifice them for convenience or efficiency. Especially if you're the one making the call and on the line, you're not gonna wanna die for anything less than the win. Sovereigns not going to say, hey they could fly here in four or five years without the relay, but hey, I don't want them to have to wait, so I'll throw myself at the relay and risk deing so they don't have to wait. That's stupid, and they might be arrogant but they're not stupid. Plus they're arrogant wich is going to further avert them to sacrifice without good reason.

Soveriegn had an entire fleet with him, and came very close to winning. We don't know what taking that flight would cost them in terms of effectiveness. And you are looking back with the knowledge that Soveriegn loses, not looking forward from Soveriegns perspective. He thought he was definately going to win. He wouldn't have attacked otherwise.

If they did take that flight they wouldn't make if for thousands of years, if thats not the case the relay isn't neceassary by any means anyway. The used the Citadel or another relay.

Getting there in two years instead of 2,000+ is easy even if your gun is at lower capacity. Attacking the citadel with one thousand Reapers at half capacity would have been 500 times better than attacking it with one full capacity Sovereign. So they never would have done so unless it was the only way to get the fleet to the Citadel.

Having all of the reapers depowered when it looks like you can win with just the one you left behind is absurd. Soveriegn was not expecting to lose. And what on earth do you mean +2000 years?

2000+ years not +2000 years. Thats as in at least 2000 years possibly more (+) you don't seem to be grasping the concepts here. You said it yourself, if you can win with one reaper (or even come close which it did) then it won't matter if all of your reapers are at reduced capacity, and it'll still be better if you have them all on hand.

In an army of Reapers Sovereign IS just one troop.

Why would that matter? Sov isn't fighting Reapers. You don't judge your chances of sucess by comparing your attack force with your other troops. That would be retarded. You judge your chances of success by comparing your atrack force with the enemy. The force they are actually attacking.

Our special forces are generally considered much better than our regular forces which are generally considered much better than most other peoples regulars... that doesn't mean we send one Marine Force Recon to invade Iraq. Point you don't attack the Citadel with one Reaper when you could have all the Reapers there without the relay even if one Reaper is better than most ships.

Is too. All the ways I've been stating including those first two up there ^.

"Is too!" is an argument used by idiots and five year olds. Which are you? I could say the sky was green, that sure as hell wouldn't make it so.

Your comparison has no bearing on the situation. Wether or not the Reapers need a relay is nothing like you saying the sky is green. I already referenced my arguments and spelled them out for you since you're not getting them.

Not what I was saying dude. The point is they don't EVER need it in Relay mode to relay to it. RELAYS PUSH YOU TO YOUR DESTINATION not pull you to it. So you don't need the Citadel Relay online to relay to the Citadel. You activate the relay you're at to launch you to your destination, they are AT the dark space relay, they activate it, and launch themselves to the Citadel. So the plot of ME1 didn't make sense.

Relays aren't simply cannons that shoot you to wherever you want to go. Try reading the codex.

Again doesn't adress the statement. Either you don't need an end point relay online, OR you don't need to activate it on site. Based on premises we see in the game, and either way ME1 didn't make any sense. You're saying you do need an endpoint relay online the Codex supports that, then you wouldn't need to activate it on site, that's the part you're not addressing. Support for that:

The Turians started the first contact war because Humans were activating a relay without knowing what's on the other side, that means the Humans didn't need to go to the other side, that means they didn't need to activate the second relay on site. That means endpoint relays don't need to be activated on site, that means Sovereign didn't need to activate Citadel Relay on sight.