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What was the point of the citadel relay?


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#76
Ship.wreck_

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supakillaii wrote...

Bogsnot1 wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...
The collectors seemed not to be part of the invasion plans but a separate side project. They were making a new (ridiculous) version of a Reaper not helping the existing Reapers get into the galaxy.


After the Keepers were modified not to accept the signal, And Nazara/Sovereign was destroyed, the only way for the portal between Dark Space and the Citadel could be opened, is for them to build another Reaper, and manually open the portal the same way Nazara/Sovereign did.
As for the new reaper being ridiculous.  Shepard showed that humans had great potential due to the fact he was able to get a bunch of alien races to band together under his banner to end the current threat. This definately got the attention of the rest of the reapers. Until that happened, I would dare say that the Asari would have been at the top of their list due to their natural biotics, ability to breed with anything, and that they have been around in the citadel for the longest, and probably a lot closer to unlo9cking its secrets than any other race.

I don't think Asari were viable since

“Asari; reliance upon alien species for reproduction shows genetic weakness.”

I think humans were on top of the tunr-into-reaper list after they learned of them, it's just that they were transferred to the ****ing-annoying-species-that-will-be-killed list


Asari don't rely on alien species to reproduce. They can and have reproduced with eachother for thousands of years. Now they just choose not to because they see benefits in that choice...

#77
supakillaii

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Also "genetic defuncts" occur only with Asari-Asari relationships (Ardat Yakshi)

#78
Ship.wreck_

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Bogsnot1 wrote...

Ship.wreck wrote...
The collectors seemed not to be part of the invasion plans but a separate side project. They were making a new (ridiculous) version of a Reaper not helping the existing Reapers get into the galaxy.


After the Keepers were modified not to accept the signal, And Nazara/Sovereign was destroyed, the only way for the portal between Dark Space and the Citadel could be opened, is for them to build another Reaper, and manually open the portal the same way Nazara/Sovereign did.
As for the new reaper being ridiculous.  Shepard showed that humans had great potential due to the fact he was able to get a bunch of alien races to band together under his banner to end the current threat. This definately got the attention of the rest of the reapers. Until that happened, I would dare say that the Asari would have been at the top of their list due to their natural biotics, ability to breed with anything, and that they have been around in the citadel for the longest, and probably a lot closer to unlo9cking its secrets than any other race.


I don't care what the reasons are a giant human skeleton flying through space is freakin ridiculous. Whatever it is about humans that might make us better it's not our bodies, our bodies are vastly inferior to the built in redundant systems of a Krogan, so even if they did see something in us it wouldn't help to copy our body.

Really what sets Humans apart is the so-called "human element" its something that's not quantifiable or replicable. And even if you could replicate it, making yourself the same shape wouldn't do the trick.

Not to mention the actions of one individual don't set apart a species. The actions of Spartacus don't make me a hero because I'm human too, and the actions of Jefrey Dahmer don't make me a phsycho because I'm a human too. So not much point to copying a whole race just cause one guy pulled off a long shot one which he couldn't have done without the help of many other races at that.

#79
Ship.wreck_

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supakillaii wrote...

Also "genetic defuncts" occur only with Asari-Asari relationships (Ardat Yakshi)


Don't know what your talking about... but probably still a far cry from "reliance"

#80
AntiChri5

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Appearently you don't grasp my arguments OR YOURS. Your argument was that Reapers have an engine which allows them to travel relay distances without using relays. My argument was that they had to have used a relay either the Citadels or some other we didn't know about. If they each have a built in Relay that they used, that would be some other relay we don't know about not your Super engine. The original point I was adressing is valid and supports my argument not yours. Mwahahahhaahaha


Wrong again. Since you clearly lack the mental capacity to read my posts i will outline my central argument again.



First, you stated that there was no way the Reapers could get to Earth under their own power.



I disagreed, and said that we don't have enough information to say that.



That was my point the entire time.



When i raised their engines it was (very clearly) as a hypothetical example of how we do not understand their technology and they have transportation options we don't. Like, say an in built relay.



Go back and read my posts. With your brain on this time.

#81
supakillaii

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Ship.wreck wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

Also "genetic defuncts" occur only with Asari-Asari relationships (Ardat Yakshi)


Don't know what your talking about... but probably still a far cry from "reliance"


You haven't played Samara's loyalty mission?

#82
008Zulu

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Heres a few fun facts about physics and maths to mull over;



If the Reapers flew in under their own Mass Effect drives it would take atleast 50,000 years, explained thusly;



The Milky Way Galaxy measures about 100,000 light years accross (X and Y axis). Based off how far the Reapers were in ME2, rotate the Galaxy 90 degrees on the Z axis and the Reapers will be close to the edge, which is 50,000 light years. We can conclude that since the Reapers built the Mass Relays to facilitate faster FTL travel between systems/clusters, that their engines are on par with ours in terms of speed.



Assume that they have more efficent ways of discharging their drive cores, if they even have to. While the Mass Relays allow point to point travel with almost no lag, traveling under their own power it would take a ship a few hours to jump between systems. Since systems are relatively close together, perhaps a few lightyears (1 hour to travel 1 lightyear, ME has never been clear on speeds and distances, perhaps to prevent analysis such as these).



Then it would take 50,000 years for the Reapers to get here, even if their engine were twice as powerful, thats still 25,000 years. So if they have an alternative method for getting here, then forgive the rather blatetly obvious question: Why have the Citadel Relay (surprise attacks being the exception) or any of the Relays?

#83
AntiChri5

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We still don't know enough about the Reapers to rule it out.



If BioWare wants them to have flown, they will simply fly.



These are the guys who invented the relays.



It could be that they have a way to send a remote signal to the citadel, to use their relay but the signal takes ages to get there.



We just don't know.

#84
Vaenier

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The citadel relay was their plan one. better question is what was the point of game 2 if they had this amazing back up plan?

#85
AntiChri5

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The point of game 2 could be one of two things:



Establish and develop characters for the next game so that the next game is all central plot.

OR

Distract people so they hopefully don't realise you didn't have enough material for three games.

#86
Nerevar-as

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I would say "walking" all the way means they have to expend a lot more energy. In the worst case, trying to repeat plan A with the H-Reaper would still destroy galactic goverment and make things a lot simpler. Now it is possible to have a full coordinated response against them, if the Council doesn´t "" again for Paragons and can convince the alien goverments the threat is universal for Renegades (and a different approach to this would do wonders to the feeling our choices made some difference).

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 13 décembre 2010 - 01:13 .


#87
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sdc3536 wrote...

After seeing the new trailer and the Reapers attack I found myself asking this question. What was the point of the reapers having Sarus opening up the Citadel relay? I mean they were delayed in their plans but they still managed to get themselves into the galaxy just by flying there. Also, wouldnt have just flying to the galaxy without alerting everyone (i.e. the actions of sarus) and taking them by surprise have been the better option?


We just dont know how the Reapers made it here? It could have been an unopened relay, something to do with the sun around Haestrom maybe?? Again, we just dont know. You are speculating (based on a 30sec teaser I may add) that they have just flown here from dark space when there is ZERO EVIDENCE to support this.  Im all for healthy speculation and debate to keep us going another year, but the numerous baseless assumptions made by many in this forum based only on a teaser are getting quite ridiculous in my opinion..:)

Modifié par Spuudle, 13 décembre 2010 - 01:14 .


#88
Dean_the_Young

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Vaenier wrote...

The citadel relay was their plan one. better question is what was the point of game 2 if they had this amazing back up plan?

Make another Reaper and have another go at it, deemed preferable to hoofing it: had things gone to plan, they would have already have knocked out one of the dominant species in the galaxy, they would have rewritten all the Geth for a new, bigger army, and they would have been able to field a nice anti-alien virus that could have debilitated the Citadel even as the Humans are weakened.

Less likely to succede than Sovereign's attempt, perhaps, but deemed a better choice to at least try. 'Amazing back up plan' might not be so amazing from their perspective.

#89
Sparda Stonerule

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Oh god Ship.wreck you are facepalm worthy.

Sovereign was the Vanguard left behind to monitor the activities of the Galaxy, he was also left behind to open the really for the rest of the Reapers which would immediately deposit the entire fleet around the Citadel.

Now first he attempted to contact the Keepers, as Vigil himself said. However he found they were no co operating with him. This is abnormal. So he finds himself a servant with high security clearance which he could use to find out just what exactly is going on. Fortunately for him Saren seeks out Sovereign and is merely indoctrinated. We know this from Saren's speech on Virmire. So through Saren Sovereign finds out that the Keepers have been re purposed by the Prothean's and further more they installed something called the Conduit which could screw up the Reaper's plan.

At this point Sovereign tracks down the Beacons so it can find out where the Conduit is. At the time Sovereign has no clue just what it is. However the Humans assumed it was a massive weapon. When Saren arrive at Ilos and finds the Conduit he would know immediately that it was a mass relay. So with Sovereign waiting at some other Relay with the Geth Fleet Saren launches the attack on the Citadel from the inside. Now the Reason Sovereign wants to open the Relay is because it would give the Reaper fleet a direct link into the heart of galactic civilization. I doubt he thought he was going to die. I mean as you said yourself they are arrogant. They have been using this plan for some time now because they figured they could guide the technological growth of every species. The Vanguard was always supposed to make the harvesting more efficient by preparing everything before the fleet showed up.

So no it isn't just for convenience, it's for efficiency. Without the direct path open they need to fly all the way to the nearest Relay and then use the bloody Relay system to launch their Assaults. Which would be less co ordinated because they would not have the data from the Citadel to tell them where every planet is that is technologically advanced. So I would assume they'd assault the Citadel rather quickly to get the census data.

I mean ME 1 pretty clearly explains the Reapers plans. Between Vigil and tidbits from Saren you know why the Reapers were doing what they did at the Citadel. So flying themselves to the Galaxy is not optimal due to the fact that they have no population data, a human knows they exist and is actively fighting against them, their attack will be less clean and efficient, they no longer have the element of surprise, and that they are not at full power. Keep in mind they harvest the technology in order to keep themselves powered. So that's why the plan they are using now is not easy. That's why they never did it before.

Was that really so hard to understand from the game by just listening to all the dialog?

Modifié par Sparda Stonerule, 13 décembre 2010 - 01:41 .


#90
Vaenier

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

The citadel relay was their plan one. better question is what was the point of game 2 if they had this amazing back up plan?

Make another Reaper and have another go at it, deemed preferable to hoofing it: had things gone to plan, they would have already have knocked out one of the dominant species in the galaxy, they would have rewritten all the Geth for a new, bigger army, and they would have been able to field a nice anti-alien virus that could have debilitated the Citadel even as the Humans are weakened.

Less likely to succede than Sovereign's attempt, perhaps, but deemed a better choice to at least try. 'Amazing back up plan' might not be so amazing from their perspective.

That plan blew up with a single frigate... The virus was stopped by a lone doctor working in the slums... Sovereign's plan atleast took the entire citadel fleet and an additional backup human fleet to stop.

Rewriting the Geth was part of Sovereign's plan. Unknown if the collectors lack of action would have changed the corse of events to stop Sheps interference. Why did the collectors not wait till they had an actual escort instead of operating out of a single ship that a frigate could kill.

#91
The-Person

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Ship.wreck wrote...

supakillaii wrote...

Nazara was always here. Old Machines "Plan A" was to open the Relay remotely (Nazara doing it), and using Rachni as "shock troopers" of sorts. "Plan B" was Saren using the Conduit to sneak in while the Galaxy didn't really care and Nazara bullrushing through the peacetime defenses when they weren't expecting any trouble. "Plan C" was Collectors. "Plan D; **** this **** **** let's just kill them" is Mass Effect 3.


The collectors seemed not to be part of the invasion plans but a separate side project. They were making a new (ridiculous) version of a Reaper not helping the existing Reapers get into the galaxy.

They should have had Saren activate the Citadel Relay covertly before they even realized he was rogue.

They were probably making a human reaper to replace sovereign in opening the relays.

#92
The-Person

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Vaenier wrote...

The citadel relay was their plan one. better question is what was the point of game 2 if they had this amazing back up plan?

To try plan 1 again with a different reaper.

#93
Reiella

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Ship.wreck wrote...
I don't care what the reasons are a giant human skeleton flying through space is freakin ridiculous. Whatever it is about humans that might make us better it's not our bodies, our bodies are vastly inferior to the built in redundant systems of a Krogan, so even if they did see something in us it wouldn't help to copy our body.

Really what sets Humans apart is the so-called "human element" its something that's not quantifiable or replicable. And even if you could replicate it, making yourself the same shape wouldn't do the trick.

Not to mention the actions of one individual don't set apart a species. The actions of Spartacus don't make me a hero because I'm human too, and the actions of Jefrey Dahmer don't make me a phsycho because I'm a human too. So not much point to copying a whole race just cause one guy pulled off a long shot one which he couldn't have done without the help of many other races at that.


Well, you took out the Human-Reaper thing before they could finish the most important part.  You see, it was going to have a 360 controller in its hands.

#94
Dean_the_Young

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Now, here's a radical thought for why the Reapers didn't want to hoof it from Dark Space: because, individually, they can't.



Whoa, I'm hearing. That's stupid. We see Reapers over Earth.



Yes. We do. But we have nothing to suggest we see all the Reapers over Earth. Or that all the Reapers even reached the galaxy. It's quite possible, given the distances involved, that individually Reapers can't get from Dark Space to the Galaxy and remain combat effective. We've known from Vigil's hypothesis in ME1, and from Grayson's struggle in Retribution, that the Reapers are not omnipotent in energy production. They may well not have the juice to all make the trip quickly, if at all, or in good order and combat power.



So how do they still get here? There's an old analogy for it: the crossing the desert problem.



Water is one of the most important things to have when crossing the desert, but it's incredibly hard, if not impossible, to carry all you need, you'd need more water than you can carry. Say you need five days worth of water, but you, personally, can only carry three days.



In the classic math problem, the key is storing and stockpiling. Load up on water, go out into the desert one day, deposit one day's worth of water, and return. Refil. Do again. Gradually build a stockpile large enough one day out so that you can start moving water and stockpiling two days out. Et. cetera. It's the classic logistics problem.



In this analogy, the Reapers are the travelers, and but they can't restock on water (super-FTL-fuel/energy that will get them to the Milky Way galaxy in relevant time).



On the other hand, rather than just dying if they run out of water, they hang in Dark Space, genuinely trapped for the relevant amount of time: whether they can never re-charge the type/scale of energy on their own (and so have to wait for anyone to return to them) or whether it would simply take them too long to do so (say, years or decades too late), is irrelevant, so long as they are unable to move forward in a timely manner. They use up their fuel, they can't get enough energy to matter.



So how does a fleet of Reapers, none of whom can make it across the void to the galaxy, make it across? Transfering energy amongst themselves.



Take it by the hypothetical unit of five. Five Reapers of similar type/range/whatever go a fifth of their range and stop. One Reaper gives its remaining four-fifths of energy to the other four, recharging them to full, and is left behind to hang in dark space until they return,victorious, with energy/the Reaper at last can recharge its own energy supplies (a process we don't have to agree takes forever, but takes too long by the Reapers calculations).



Then those four Reapers move until they go a fourth of their reserves, and the same sort of re-allocation of fuel/energy is done. Then the three Reapers go a third. Then the two reapers go a half.



In the end, one Reaper out of the initial five made it, but it made it, it's ready to totally kick ass, and there's far more than five Reapers to start the trip, and enough make it to still have a damn good shot at winning against the galaxy (if they play their cards right).







And tadah. A classic mathematical modeling and justification for why the Reapers had good reason to want the Citadel Relay (but didn't necessarily need it), how they could get to the Galaxy (without the Galaxy being unbelievably close), and why the Reapers won't just be too numerous to oppose (because a lot/most of them had to be stuck in Dark Space in order for the rest to get here). Exact fractions and proportions are up for change, but it's the model, not the exact ratios, that is important.





Can I claim this is The Absolute Word? No. But it's a reasonable explanation given what we have, it works with known limitations and behavioral preferences of the Reapers, it provides plausibility looking forward to what we must be able to do, and resolves a lot of questions we have in an acceptable in-universe reasoning.


#95
Vaenier

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I guess I am just still mad that they didnt have a backup relay. Its not like the Citadel relay is special, the regular relays can easily go just as far.

#96
Dean_the_Young

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Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

The citadel relay was their plan one. better question is what was the point of game 2 if they had this amazing back up plan?

Make another Reaper and have another go at it, deemed preferable to hoofing it: had things gone to plan, they would have already have knocked out one of the dominant species in the galaxy, they would have rewritten all the Geth for a new, bigger army, and they would have been able to field a nice anti-alien virus that could have debilitated the Citadel even as the Humans are weakened.

Less likely to succede than Sovereign's attempt, perhaps, but deemed a better choice to at least try. 'Amazing back up plan' might not be so amazing from their perspective.

That plan blew up with a single frigate... The virus was stopped by a lone doctor working in the slums... Sovereign's plan atleast took the entire citadel fleet and an additional backup human fleet to stop.

Rewriting the Geth was part of Sovereign's plan. Unknown if the collectors lack of action would have changed the corse of events to stop Sheps interference. Why did the collectors not wait till they had an actual escort instead of operating out of a single ship that a frigate could kill.

A single frigate that had already done a number of impossible things (like, say, cross the Omega 4 relay in the first place) and possessed technology and capabilities far in excess of any other frigate of the time, piloted by the best pilot, under circumstances not of the Collectors own choosing. If the Geth as a whole had been changed by the Heretic Virus, the Reapers would have had a whole new armada and force to use, never needed or been forced to a 'collector cruiser versus everyone' situation.

The Omega 4 virus may well not have been neutralized had Shepard not arrived in time to assist Mordin (a leading scientist in the necessary field of research, not 'just' a lone doctor), after which Mordin, his clinic, and his cure could have been overrun by the Vorcha, and nothing stops the virus from being expanded or improved later after its trial run.

#97
Blackbelt749

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I just want to throw something out there-Sovereign thought he would for sure get the relay open. He did not feel as though the Citadel defenses could stop him. What happens when he opens the relay? Countless Reapers show up to aide him. If Sovereign did believe that the Citadel defenses could stop him, he obviously did not believe they could stop him before he summoned the Reaper army.

#98
Dean_the_Young

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Vaenier wrote...

I guess I am just still mad that they didnt have a backup relay. Its not like the Citadel relay is special, the regular relays can easily go just as far.

...no, the implication has been that the Citadel Relay is special because the regular relays can't go as far.

There isn't some regular relay hidden somewhere inside the Citadel. (Well, there is, but the Conduit isn't close to a Reaper relay, and wasn't built by the Reapers.) The entire Citadel is a Mass Relay, one magnitudes larger than any primary relay (of which also work in pairs).

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 13 décembre 2010 - 02:21 .


#99
Vaenier

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I guess I am just still mad that they didnt have a backup relay. Its not like the Citadel relay is special, the regular relays can easily go just as far.

...no, the implication has been that the Citadel Relay is special because the regular relays can't go as far.

There isn't some regular relay hidden somewhere inside the Citadel. (Well, there is, but the Conduit isn't close to a Reaper relay, and wasn't built by the Reapers.) The entire Citadel is a Mass Relay, one magnitudes larger than any primary relay (of which also work in pairs).

they were not that far from the galaxy acording to the end of me2. 50,000 lightyears actually after some math.
We got regular relays that shoot across the milkyway.
milkyway: 100000LY diameter
Map of Known Relays
=win?

#100
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Vaenier wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

I guess I am just still mad that they didnt have a backup relay. Its not like the Citadel relay is special, the regular relays can easily go just as far.

...no, the implication has been that the Citadel Relay is special because the regular relays can't go as far.

There isn't some regular relay hidden somewhere inside the Citadel. (Well, there is, but the Conduit isn't close to a Reaper relay, and wasn't built by the Reapers.) The entire Citadel is a Mass Relay, one magnitudes larger than any primary relay (of which also work in pairs).

they were not that far from the galaxy acording to the end of me2. 50,000 lightyears actually after some math.
We got regular relays that shoot across the milkyway.
milkyway: 100000LY diameter
Map of Known Relays
=win?


Am i the only one who suspects the destabalising star at haestrom may have something to do with it??? If a star has sufficient mass it will form a black hole upon its destruction. Then, the law of physics break down and we have no idea what lies beyond. The collector base had tech that prevented it being destroyed at the galactic core(Same locale as a super massive one), so they have greater knowledge than us!

EDIT: Never studied the map of known relays before, thanks, very interesting. Along with the non-activated relays its quite a thorough coverage!

Modifié par Spuudle, 13 décembre 2010 - 02:54 .