323 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

/sighs



Really? We just can't have our own thread?

[Zjarcal]

errant_knight wrote...

Better change the title of the thread to 'Defend Wynne against all comers', Rykoth.

Rykoth didn't create the thread, Ryzaki did. Although a post like the one Rykoth made only invites people to defend why they hate Wynne, since he makes a bunch of assumptions out of the blue.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 15 décembre 2010 - 05:37 .

[ejoslin]

Yep, it was his post that drew me in

[KnightofPhoenix]

We're discussing the character, I really see no "hate". And I don't see what there is to talk about Wynne other than, eum I don't know, discussing her character?

[Reaverwind]

ejoslin wrote...

Yep, it was his post that drew me in

LOL - you weren't the only one.

[Ryzaki]

Yet when you guys painted Wynne defenders as "someone who insists only bad characters dislike Wynne" I resisted the impulse to post. Tis not difficult.

As for discussing the character: Sure that's fine but this thread has been all about debating why she did X ad naseum. We already have gone over most of what you guys are saying. 

Not to mention you're already having most of the discussions in another thread. Dragging them into this one is just plain unnecessary.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 15 décembre 2010 - 05:49 .

[ejoslin]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yet when you guys painted Wynne defenders as "someone who insists only bad characters dislike Wynne" I resisted the impulse to post. Tis not difficult.

As for discussing the character: Sure that's fine but this thread has been all about debating why she did X ad naseum. We already have gone over most of what you guys are saying. 

Not to mention you're already having most of the discussions in another thread. Dragging them into this one is just plain unnecessary.

But you were definitely free to.  I find those discussions quite fun to watch!  But I will bow out...  until someone decides i hate my grandmother again :innocent:

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
As for discussing the character: Sure that's fine but this thread has been all about debating why she did X ad naseum. We already have gone over most of what you guys are saying. 

Not to mention you're already having most of the discussions in another thread. Dragging them into this one is just plain unnecessary.

I guess now you know what I feel about Anora being brought up every single time in threads that are not about her at all?

[Ryzaki]

Believe me if I was to enter every thread I disagreed with it...well maybe I will when I have some time on my hands. It might be fun if nothing else.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
As for discussing the character: Sure that's fine but this thread has been all about debating why she did X ad naseum. We already have gone over most of what you guys are saying. 

Not to mention you're already having most of the discussions in another thread. Dragging them into this one is just plain unnecessary.

I guess now you know what I feel about Anora being brought up every single time in threads that are not about her at all?

Not really because I don't care about Wynne being brought up in any other thread. I just want her support thread (like if you started one for Anora I'd stay the hell away) to be left alone.

[Wulfram]

ejoslin wrote...

But it's a freedom she tries to talk other out of.  The magewarden and Anairan. 

She wants the Mage Warden and Aneirin to go back so that they can make the Circle more free.  Likely including allowing mages more opportunities to leave the tower.
She doesn't suggest that either of them are required to return.  She just hopes they'd want to.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Ryzaki wrote...
Not really because I don't care about Wynne being brought up in any other thread. I just want her support thread (like if you started one for Anora I'd stay the hell away) to be left alone.

Fair enough.
Staying the hell out of this thread, starting now.

[Reaverwind]

Wulfram wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

But it's a freedom she tries to talk other out of.  The magewarden and Anairan. 

She wants the Mage Warden and Aneirin to go back so that they can make the Circle more free.  Likely including allowing mages more opportunities to leave the tower.
She doesn't suggest that either of them are required to return.  She just hopes they'd want to.

Actually, Wynne never states what changes she wants to see occur - only that she wants change and strongly implies she is unwilling to see those changes through herself. Her asking Aneirin, a condemned maleficar, to return to the Circle was a serious triple facepalm why-can't-I-slap-some-sense-into-this-fool-woman moment.

Then, she has the gall to ask the mage Warden to effectively leave the Warden ranks to fufill whatever flight of fancy she's cooked up, after preaching up a storm on Warden responsibilities.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 15 décembre 2010 - 06:11 .

[BlazingSpeed]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ejoslin wrote...
 Whether she's going to Tevinter with Shale or just leaving on her own (and at least in one instance completely without permission), she is, well, leaving the circle.  The very thing she feels all other mages should not be allowed to do.

I thought Awakening showed that Wynne remained in the circle anyways.
It is not implausible for Wynne to go to the Tevinter Imperium with the Circle's permission.

ejoslin wrote...
 I think Wynne realizes at the end that the warden is a person, and extraordinary person, but still just a person who is, surprisingly, competent.

And even in the end, she seems to scoff at the idea of the Warden being called "Hero of Ferelden". Lke she is acting as if such acclamations are beneath her. To be honest, that was actually annoying a bit.

I have nothing to add to this heated debate except that the Xanatos tribute link was great except for that fact that it missed the Owen skin scene.

[Ryzaki]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Not really because I don't care about Wynne being brought up in any other thread. I just want her support thread (like if you started one for Anora I'd stay the hell away) to be left alone.

Fair enough.
Staying the hell out of this thread, starting now.

Aw...I didn't mean it like that.

You make me feel like a jerk.

[Wulfram]

Reaverwind wrote...

Actually, Wynne never states what changes she wants to see occur - only that she wants change and strongly implies she is unwilling to see those changes through herself.

The fact that she encourages a Mage who describes the place as oppressive to take up a position of power is a pretty clear indicator of the changes she thinks are needed.
And she's not unwilling to see those changes through.  She just knows she's not going to live long enough to do so.

Her asking Aneirin, a condemned maleficar, to return to the Circle was a serious triple facepalm why-can't-I-slap-some-sense-into-this-fool-woman moment.

It seems a little strange that she thinks it possible, but presumably she knows Irving and the Tower's rules better than we do.

Then, she has the gall to ask the mage Warden to effectively leave the Warden ranks to fufill whatever flight of fancy she's cooked up, after preaching up a storm on Warden responsibilities.

She offers a suggestion as to how they might do some good for their fellow mages, after they've defeated the blight.  I'm not sure that conflicts with her stuff on Grey Warden responsibility.

[Reaverwind]

Wulfram wrote...

It seems a little strange that she thinks it possible, but presumably she knows Irving and the Tower's rules better than we do.

One need only look to the events of the Magi origin to conclude that Wynne is willfully ignoring/overlooking certain realities of the Circle. It should have been made apparent that, even if you were cooperating with Irving, your character got into a lot of hot water and Irving's influence and protection only go so far. In fact, the journal entry makes it clear that Irving was banking on Duncan's intervention.

Wulfram wrote...
She offers a suggestion as to how they might do some good for their fellow mages, after they've defeated the blight.  I'm not sure that conflicts with her stuff on Grey Warden responsibility.

Except that Warden responsibilties don't end with Blights.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 15 décembre 2010 - 06:38 .

[errant_knight]

Zjarcal wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Better change the title of the thread to 'Defend Wynne against all comers', Rykoth.

Rykoth didn't create the thread, Ryzaki did. Although a post like the one Rykoth made only invites people to defend why they hate Wynne, since he makes a bunch of assumptions out of the blue.

My mistake, too little coffee and too little sleep. The sentiment stands, however.

[Ryzaki]

OP edited. Honestly everyone debating can you please *please* take it to the abominable Wynne thread?



This isn't nicest environment to attract other Wynne fans. Which is what I was going for when the topic was created.

[Face of Evil]

Is Wynne an abomination?



If we choose to define an abomination as any person with a Fade spirit inhabiting their body, then yes.



However, the term generally refers to mages possessed by demons. The demon is fully in control of the mage's body, which has undergone a horrific transformation. The stronger abominations may take the shape of the mortal they are possessing, but they always revert to their demonic form in battle.



Abominations are also invariably cruel and sadistic. They take pleasure in inflicting pain and death upon others. Abominations are defined by their cruelty.



Wynne is fully in control of her actions. The Spirit of Faith that maintains her vital functions does not influence her mind. And she doesn't take pleasure in the suffering of others.



If we choose to define an abomination by their actions, then Wynne does not qualify.



Would the Chantry classify Wynne as an abomination? I can't say with absolute certainty that they wouldn't, but she doesn't fit in with the normal definition of an abomination. Other than demons, spirits from the Fade do not interact with mortals. They have no frame of reference for what Wynne has become.

[IanPolaris]

Face of Evil wrote...

Would the Chantry classify Wynne as an abomination? I can't say with absolute certainty that they wouldn't, but she doesn't fit in with the normal definition of an abomination. Other than demons, spirits from the Fade do not interact with mortals. They have no frame of reference for what Wynne has become.

I am virtually certain they would.  The Chantry defines any being possessed by a spirit to be an abomination (since good spirits don't possess people).  The Chantry is notoriously closed minded about "special" cases such as good blood mages which are possible.

If this were the Imperial Chantry, Wynne might not be considered an abomination.  In the Andrastian Chantry.....

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

There might be something in the fact that those who appreciate Wynne were generally playing good characters --based on those contributing to the thread.

I'm sorry, but this has NOTHING to do with what one thinks of Wynne.

Why do you deny that it has any impact at all?  I'm happy to be proven wrong, naturally.

I'd be happy to.  My first bloodmage was a paragon of virtue and made every "good" moral choice (much to Morrigan's displeasure).  He even got his specialization by INTIMADATING the demon to leave Conner which is a decidely good action (it also takes four ranks of coercion to pull it off).

Wynne decided to do the stab, stab, stab, kill, kill, kill routine with him anyway regardless of all that.

Hypocrit.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Glaucon wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

There might be something in the fact that those who appreciate Wynne were generally playing good characters --based on those contributing to the thread.

I'm sorry, but this has NOTHING to do with what one thinks of Wynne.

Why do you deny that it has any impact at all?  I'm happy to be proven wrong, naturally.

I'd be happy to.  My first bloodmage was a paragon of virtue and made every "good" moral choice (much to Morrigan's displeasure).  He even got his specialization by INTIMADATING the demon to leave Conner which is a decidely good action (it also takes four ranks of coercion to pull it off).

Wynne decided to do the stab, stab, stab, kill, kill, kill routine with him anyway regardless of all that.

Hypocrit.

-Polaris

I wouldn't deny that she can be hypocritical or that some of her advice stinks but that doesn't address the possibility of those reactions being in line with her alignment. 

I wouldn't expect Ogren to judge me badly if he saw me in a pile of my own vomit surrounded by empty tankards.  On the other hand I would expect Wynne to dispense a lengthy sermon about the duties of a Warden and my apparent lack of responsibility.  Obviously not everyone who plays an evil character will dislike Wynne and conversely not every good character will like her.  But I think that it is possible that if we could analyse that data then it would offer some insight as to the statistical veracity or otherwise of the general claim?

I gave a valid counter-example which disproves your thesis.  Many of the Wynne detractors play good characters and honestly some her dialog lines with GOOD people who just disagree with her are the ones that rankle.

-Polaris