323 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Glaucon wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

There might be something in the fact that those who appreciate Wynne were generally playing good characters --based on those contributing to the thread.

I'm sorry, but this has NOTHING to do with what one thinks of Wynne.

Why do you deny that it has any impact at all?  I'm happy to be proven wrong, naturally.

Because you're making the ever popular assumption that Wynne Hater = Player with "evil" Warden, which is a foolish assumption to say the least.

Now I'm going to answer to this post despite the "ban" that has been imposed on Wynne Haters on this thread.

Whatever the morality of your warden has nothing to do with how you feel about a certain character. I could be playing the most pragmatic character in the world and still dislike Morrigan or Sten based on their personalities. Conversely, I could be playing a saint of a warden and still be annoyed by Wynne's attitude (or Leliana's and Alistair's).

Fact, virtually all of my wardens (with the exception of my CE) went out of their way to help everyone and achieve the most satisfying solutions to all quests (in fact Wynne approved of almost all of their actions). Did they get along with Wynne? No, not a single one of them. Why? Because she annoyed them. 

For my HNF for example, the "turning point" so to speak, was at the Urn of Sacred Ashes when the Guardian asks if you believe you failed your parents. My warden refused to answer the question, to which Wynne made an incredibly irritating comment about how her refusal to answer "such a simple" question said more about who she was than if she had answered at all. Not only was such question not a simple one (bringing back the most painful memory of my warden's life), it was none of the Guardian's business and Wynne should've either zipped her mouth or said something similar to what everyone else in there says (i.e. "forget the past and move on").

So, was it because my HNF was an "EVIL RULZ! THE WORLD HAS TO DIE!" type of character that she hated Wynne? No, she hated her because of her personality. Simple as that. The same applies to all my other characters.

Now, I'm out of here lest I be accused of trolling Wynne's thread again.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 15 décembre 2010 - 10:12 .

[Face of Evil]

IanPolaris wrote...

I am virtually certain they would.  The Chantry defines any being possessed by a spirit to be an abomination (since good spirits don't possess people).

But where are you getting that information? Can you specifically bring up a Codex, a piece of dialogue or ANYTHING that defines an abomination as "a person possessed by a spirit"?

Or are you basing your conclusion entirely on your dislike of the Chantry?

Everything I've read says that abominations are mages possessed by demons. Demons, not spirits.

IanPolaris wrote...

If this were the Imperial Chantry, Wynne might not be considered an abomination.  In the Andrastian Chantry.....

Again, what are you basing that on?

[Zjarcal]

Glaucon wrote...
I make no assumptions, I'm merely enquiring as to the breakdown of player characters that dislike Wynne.  I'm simply trying to understand why people dislike her and trying to discern if it is due to the alignment of PCs/NPCs.  Try not to paint me with that brush as it tickles a little.

I wouldn't want to presume another's feeling toward a particular thing so I don't find it useful to discuss subjective responses to Wynne.  I would like to see some data, if it's available, as to who disliked Wynne and what character they were playing.  If only to kill the theory.  There may be more to what you are saying than what I am asking, but I think it an equal over simplification to dismiss Wynne based on dialogue outcomes. 

Well, it also tickles when people say that those who hate Wynne must be playing "evil" characters (and do I need to say again how much I hate to label characters as "good" and "evil"?).

Also, people are allowed to dismiss a character based on anything they want. If you feel it's an oversimplification, that's a shame.

Anyway, if you feel the need to collect data then make a poll.

[Face of Evil]

All right, Glaucon, here's my tidbit: my main character, who got along very well with Wynne, was of the Chaotic Good variety.



He'd close to Lawful Good, but he's willing to resort to illegal activities to achieve the best ends possible for the people around him.

[Reaverwind]

Glaucon wrote...

I take some of Wynne's advice to be along the lines of her having already made a similar mistake and that she is just trying to guide the Warden away from paths that she has already trodden. Some see that as hypocrisy, I just see it as her acknowledging her mistakes and offering those lessons to the Warden.

And what would those be? She never got involved in a serious relationship, so doesn't have the first clue in what it takes to maintain one. At no point do her lectures mention anything about pregnancy - the last thing a Grey Warden has to worry about.

[Face of Evil]

Reaverwind wrote...

And what would those be? She never got involved in a serious relationship, so doesn't have the first clue in what it takes to maintain one. At no point do her lectures mention anything about pregnancy - the last thing a Grey Warden has to worry about.

And how would you know that Wynne was never in a relationship?

And why would she even bring up the topic of pregnancy? I don't understand your point.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 15 décembre 2010 - 11:22 .

[Reaverwind]

Face of Evil wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

And what would those be? She never got involved in a serious relationship, so doesn't have the first clue in what it takes to maintain one. At no point do her lectures mention anything about pregnancy - the last thing a Grey Warden has to worry about.

And how would you know that Wynne was never in a relationship?

And why would she even bring up the topic of pregnancy? I don't understand your point.

I stated she was never in a serious relationship. See her banter with Alistair.

As for my comment about pregnancy, I was responding to your comment, " I just see it as her acknowledging her mistakes and offering those lessons to the Warden."

That's the only mistake I see as even being relevant.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 15 décembre 2010 - 11:29 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Face of Evil wrote...

All right, Glaucon, here's my tidbit: my main character, who got along very well with Wynne, was of the Chaotic Good variety.

He'd close to Lawful Good, but he's willing to resort to illegal activities to achieve the best ends possible for the people around him.

Then he'd be neutral good.

None of my characters I have created can realistically be classed as good/evil/law/chaos, so thinking in the box of alignment doesn't work. One of them liked her, one was apathetic but slightly annoyed with her, one disliked her intensely, two held her beneath contempt. Only one of those characters could be considered classically "evil".

[Face of Evil]

Ah, you're probably right, Skadi.

You know what? Screw the bloated alignment systems of the past. He's Lawful Good under the 4E alignment system.

Reaverwind wrote...

I stated she was never in a serious relationship. See her banter with Alistair.

She states she was never married. That does not mean she has never been in love.

Reaverwind wrote...

As for my comment about pregnancy, I was responding to your comment, " I just see it as her acknowledging her mistakes and offering those lessons to the Warden."

That was not my comment, and I still don't understand your point. Why would she offer advice about a topic that has no relevance to the events of the game?

Modifié par Face of Evil, 15 décembre 2010 - 11:53 .

[Ryzaki]

Maria13 wrote...

I wrote a Wynne fic, The Taste of Strawberries, I got the impression she's had a rather dissolute youth... Been there done that, got the tee, forgot about it 'cause it wasn't important after all...

Wow *blinks in amazement*

I am soooo sorry I ignored thisbefore. That was beautiful! 

[Reaverwind]

Glaucon wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Glaucon wrote...

I take some of Wynne's advice to be along the lines of her having already made a similar mistake and that she is just trying to guide the Warden away from paths that she has already trodden. Some see that as hypocrisy, I just see it as her acknowledging her mistakes and offering those lessons to the Warden.

And what would those be? She never got involved in a serious relationship, so doesn't have the first clue in what it takes to maintain one. At no point do her lectures mention anything about pregnancy - the last thing a Grey Warden has to worry about.

True, I've found her advice to be of a general nature too.  I can't say her advice is without value though.  It is the advice of someone with many years of life experience, so I tend to transpose her general utterances into the overall storyline.  If that makes any sense? 

Except for the relationship "advice", her sermons have less to do with life experience and more to do with a romanticized ideal of what a Grey Warden should be. Her relationship advice could be said to based upon her life experience, except that it's clearly a product of Chantry programming and unsound.

[Sabariel]

Just because every support thread needs fanart:







Source: http://firefly-wp.deviantart.com/

[errant_knight]

Hey, good idea! Did you draw that?

[Addai]

Glaucon wrote...
I make no assumptions, I'm merely enquiring as to the breakdown of player characters that dislike Wynne.  I'm simply trying to understand why people dislike her and trying to discern if it is due to the alignment of PCs/NPCs.  Try not to paint me with that brush as it tickles a little.

I wouldn't want to presume another's feeling toward a particular thing so I don't find it useful to discuss subjective responses to Wynne.  I would like to see some data, if it's available, as to who disliked Wynne and what character they were playing.  If only to kill the theory.  There may be more to what you are saying than what I am asking, but I think it an equal over simplification to dismiss Wynne based on dialogue outcomes. 

So as not to introduce debate into a... gush? thread... I'll answer your question over in the Abominable Wynne thread, if you don't mind.

[Sabariel]

errant_knight wrote...

Hey, good idea! Did you draw that?

No, I have no artistic talent to speak of

The deviantart account where I found the fanart is in my original post.

[errant_knight]

Sabariel wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Hey, good idea! Did you draw that?

No, I have no artistic talent to speak of

The deviantart account where I found the fanart is in my original post.

Heh, well, it's a nice picture anyway.

[Sabariel]

Source: http://moumou38.deviantart.com/

[sleepingbelow]

IanPolaris wrote...

I can not agree.  Replay the scene again and it's not what you think it is.  Wynne does not attack you if you say that Morrigan *might* be right because you are threatening the children or going through with the annulment.  How do I know?  Because when you DO explicitly decide to go through with the annulment, her conversation is completely different and both Alistair and Lelianna (if present) object and try to talk you down.

No.  If you listen to Morrigan, Wynne says, "Your advisor is a dangerous apostate and you will enter this tower over my dead body."  Then she attacks.

Unprovoked.

How do I know?  No approval loss from either Alistair or Lelianna in this case.

-Polaris

Just a heads up, I'm playing this part again right now, and the following happens.

Morrigan says, "Their masters have chosen death for them, I say let them have it."

If you say she might be right, she says, "Save them.  Save them all from this half-life."  Mercy killings ahoy, I guess.

EDIT:  Also, after Wynne says you'll go in over her dead body, Morrigan responds with, "We will give you what you wish, old woman."  So, I guess what is really happening, is Wynne draws a line in the sand.  Morrigan rolls initiative.  And god knows what happens once anybody rolls initiative in a party.

EDIT2: 

Sabariel wrote...
And? Look at Sophia, Connor, and Amalia. Does Wynne ever talk like Sophia or Connor or Amalia? Does anyone close to Wynne ever say: "Gee, Wynne. You've changed."?

Again, what evidence is there that it was a demon that possessed Wynne and not a spirit?

Oh, I'm just saying, most people have a working definition of what a demon is, and then Wynne tells you that she has something inside her that falls into that working definition.  I don't ever get the impression that Wynne or anything bonded to her is malicious.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 17 décembre 2010 - 04:09 .